Are Low Staffing Levels Part of Celebrity’s Plan to Cut Costs and Increase Profitably?

[HMR74]

24 minutes ago, markeb said:

I'm not happy about what people are reporting, but I don't know why anyone is surprised. Have you flown recently? Great article this weekend about airline pilots. Turns out a lot of them are in the 51-59 year old range. Mandatory retirement is currently 65. Wide body pilots can make $350K a year. When the airlines were idled in 2020, a lot of them offered early retirement, which I suspect the stockholders (including everyone on this thread's 401K/403B) applauded to keep earnings up. Well, you can't make a 777 pilot overnight, and now the major carriers are cannibalizing their regional carriers to get pilots with enough flight hours to fly those big jets. Regional pilots make something like $66K a year, so they're jumping at the opportunity to triple their salary (or more). In some markets, those ERJ's are being replaced by buses.

 

No, we're not talking airline pilots here, but it's illustrative of the problems. Senior people retired and moved on with life. The base that the service industries recruit from found things to do during the pandemic. No hard numbers or data, just anecdotes, but some went to community college (or the equivalent) and learned to code. If you can get paid to literally sit in your underwear at home writing Python scripts, why go to the hassle of getting passports, visa, health checks, etc. to clean toilets on a cruise ship? Or in the US, flip burgers?

 

And, again, the cost cutting increases earnings per share to your 401K...

This all is a rather complex equation. Not much is simple anymore. I would not want to be in Corporate Management  or operations now. Anything can go wrong at any time.

 

There is a you tube out there showing turn around day in Miami for a mega ship. Very interesting on how things are precision based. a trivia question was how many eggs are consumed per day. I forgot. But its 10's of thousands. Think of bread/rolls, cake etc. and many recipies.

 

Give ya all a small example-

 

Egg prices--The USDA keeps track of this egg price and and current price is 2.80 a dozen for  average eggs nationwide delivered to grocery warehouse. The year ago price was 80 cents. Next up is to have it delivered to ship on time. It's all choreographed  like one of the better shows.

The logistics is amazing. And broken now that the global supply chain is broken.

 

The cruise lines and airlines just want to get to cash flow positive.

 

They could not pay me enough for this burn out aggrevation.

[Fly and Sail]

2 hours ago, mrgabriel said:

 

I work in the travel industry and NO COMPANY can get enough staff. It's not a "Celebrity issue" - it's all over the world in restaurants, bars, hotels, inns, resorts, car rental agencies - everywhere.

 

Some of the companies my employer works with are the best hotel chains and most profitable visitor experiences in the world and they can't get front desk people, chambermaids or serving staff even after increasing wages. It's likely much more difficult for cruise lines because you take long hours and add  being away from home for months on end and the risk of being stuck on a ship during a lockdown.

 

Lets not forget though where cruise lines hire. Developing countries in Asia. I highly doubt that people in India, Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines suddenly became rich. These economies have been battered by Covid. Cruise Lines don't want to spend the money for experienced staff while posting Billions in losses each quarter.

[Ipeeinthepools]

4 hours ago, mrgabriel said:

 

I work in the travel industry and NO COMPANY can get enough staff. It's not a "Celebrity issue" - it's all over the world in restaurants, bars, hotels, inns, resorts, car rental agencies - everywhere.

 

Some of the companies my employer works with are the best hotel chains and most profitable visitor experiences in the world and they can't get front desk people, chambermaids or serving staff even after increasing wages. It's likely much more difficult for cruise lines because you take long hours and add  being away from home for months on end and the risk of being stuck on a ship during a lockdown.

I’ll continue to suggest that it is self inflicted.  As long as Celebrity continues to add new ships and bring additional ships back into service they intentionally increasing the amount of staff they need.  Sure you are going to bring the Beyond into service but maybe you let the Eclipse parked and don’t send her to Alaska.  Perhaps you park the Infinity or Constellation since those ships haven’t been revolutionized.   There are choices and Celebrity has chosen to operate with reduced staff that is making like difficult for both the passengers and crew.

[Megabear2]

If getting more staff onboard any company's ships is going to require a rise in wages then inevitably the answer will have to be the cruising public will have to pay more as well.  The cruise lines are no doubt trying to keep these price rises down due to global recession biting and cutbacks onboard will be one way to do this.  It's going to be a vicious circle.  How do they keep the top end guests using the Retreat, Haven, Grills or whatever they call their high end cabins happy while keeping the bread and butter end in the insides, outsides and balconies actually able to afford to carrying on cruising?  

 

As a newcomer to the Celebrity brand I have gained the impression that they sell well to the high end guests based on the service they offer to Retreat passengers.  As a "steerage" class passenger with limited resources I read little here about the experience I may expect although I'm certain it will be good.  Perhaps my expectations will be nearer to what Celebrity are offering or maybe I too will think for the "premium fare" compared with Princess, P&O etc they are not for me.  I remain positive and hope the experience will be better than on those lines.

[HMR74]

In a perfect world…….

[cruisefam38]

4 hours ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

There are choices and Celebrity has chosen to operate with reduced staff that is making like difficult for both the passengers and crew.

The cruiseline stocks are taking significant hits this past week.  Recently, Arnold Donald, the CEO of Carnival, stepped aside.  Indicating even those at the top are tired, and possibly exhausted.  Cruise line leadership continues to assure investors that cruising will soon return to profitability.  When?  Soon, real soon.

 

As you noted, long term,  it would be smart to keep a couple of ships idle, even sell them off, thereby releasing that staff to work on other ships.  That would most likely sustain customer satisfaction, while simultaneously taking care to not overwork staff and crew.  If this crop of employees  are used up and burned out, from where will the replacements come?

Edited May 18, 2022 by cruisefam38

[TeeRick]

Geez let's step back for just a second to some reality. We are in Pandemic Year Three.  Continued labor shortages in all industries, especially service industries- despite paying higher wages and offering signing bonuses.    Red tape to travel and work to/from most countries.  Shortages of everything in terms of goods, food, parts, etc. and shipping ports backed up.  Huge increases to all of us in the price of fuel and inflation running away and highest in 40 years.  I could go on.  You all know the story just living every day.  So somehow we expect business like Celebrity to be immune to all this and sail with the service and staff like before the pandemic.  Oh yeah- also without price increases.  And maintain their survival.  C'mon !

@Ipeeinthepools I don't really agree that this is self inflicted but as you point out maybe it is partially the case.  But I do agree with you that maybe they could operate fewer ships with the staff and resources that they have across the board.  Let's remember the debt they are in and the fact that they needed to launch Beyond and run EDGE and APEX to make good on their current and future financial picture to the debt holders and investors.  IMO they are not anywhere near profitable yet.  Only running those three ships might help but the paying customer base would mutiny.  They are in a very tight box methinks.

[TeeRick]

4 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

If getting more staff onboard any company's ships is going to require a rise in wages then inevitably the answer will have to be the cruising public will have to pay more as well.  The cruise lines are no doubt trying to keep these price rises down due to global recession biting and cutbacks onboard will be one way to do this.  It's going to be a vicious circle.  How do they keep the top end guests using the Retreat, Haven, Grills or whatever they call their high end cabins happy while keeping the bread and butter end in the insides, outsides and balconies actually able to afford to carrying on cruising?  

 

As a newcomer to the Celebrity brand I have gained the impression that they sell well to the high end guests based on the service they offer to Retreat passengers.  As a "steerage" class passenger with limited resources I read little here about the experience I may expect although I'm certain it will be good.  Perhaps my expectations will be nearer to what Celebrity are offering or maybe I too will think for the "premium fare" compared with Princess, P&O etc they are not for me.  I remain positive and hope the experience will be better than on those lines.

I just chuckle when a person sailing a luxury cruise line on vacation not in a suite describes themselves as "steerage" class.  Just too funny!😀

[Megabear2]

12 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I just chuckle when a person sailing a luxury cruise line on vacation not in a suite describes themselves as "steerage" class.  Just too funny!😀

I wouldn't call Celebrity luxury, my cruise on Celebrity Edge was booked as it was the cheapest option for a good cruise line in comparison with others.  The steerage comment was tongue in cheek  hence the quotation marks.   I'm quite nervous after 70 sailings on other lines as to what I may encounter as nearly every post I see on these boards is from or refers to suite guests.   I certainly have begun to feel second rate and that isn't tongue in cheek!

Edited May 18, 2022 by Megabear2

[Ipeeinthepools]

Remember that prior to the pandemic, Celebrity was supposed.transfer at least  2 ships to Pulmantur,  maybe they should revert back to that business plan and use crew from those two ships to adequately staff the rest of the fleet.

[canderson]

6 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I'm quite nervous after 70 sailings on other lines as to what I may encounter as nearly every post I see on these boards is from or refers to suite guests.   I certainly have begun to feel second rate and that isn't tongue in cheek!

A few things have happened that have caused some additional focus on suites, many COVID related.

 

There seem to be a lot of suite questions from many X suite newcomers who have combined COVID-caused FCC or have taken the MoveUp route.  Inexperienced with the suite experience, they have a lot of questions in setting their expectations.

 

There is a mix of "Revolutionized" and "Non-Revolutionized" M/S class ships, the latter postponed indefinitely due to COVID, and there is a difference in what each offers to suite guests.  Both new and prior suite guests are trying to sort out what each ship offers them based upon ship class and Revolution status.  

 

Those that are suite repeats have reported stretched staffing on some ships, noting specifically that suites have been running full (see 1st paragraph) with lower staffing or less experienced staff in suite-specific venues where this hasn't ever been the case before.  Again, this is a function of COVID-era staffing issues and crewmember quarantines due to positive tests.  Since the extra service normally provided to suite guests as part of the package has been spotty on some ships, it's being commented upon here.

 

So suite commentary here seems to have increased since the restart.

 

[mahdnc]

I can't wait for the day when Celebrity's normal excellent service is Always Included!

[TeeRick]

24 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

Remember that prior to the pandemic, Celebrity was supposed.transfer at least  2 ships to Pulmantur,  maybe they should revert back to that business plan and use crew from those two ships to adequately staff the rest of the fleet.

Ipee that is a fair comment but Pulmantur is out of business since 2020.  So RCG/Celebrity would need to sell or transfer ships to somebody else.  But who? They would need to mothball a few ships instead and redistribute staff and resources.  But which ones?  I would imagine some customers going berserk if this happened now to a favorite ship that was M-Class or S-Class.  They will not mothball an E-Class ship (but I know that might make you happy😀.

[cruisefam38]

Mahdnc:

The normal excellent service was included on the Reflection during a Caribbean cruise.  We booked another cruise scheduled for autumn of 2023  because of our thorough satisfaction with that cruise.

Always Included is a goal to strive for by Celebrity.  As Ipee has repeatedly suggested, maybe some serious reconsideration to fleet deployment must be enacted.

[TeeRick]

58 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I wouldn't call Celebrity luxury, my cruise on Celebrity Edge was booked as it was the cheapest option for a good cruise line in comparison with others.  The steerage comment was tongue in cheek  hence the quotation marks.   I'm quite nervous after 70 sailings on other lines as to what I may encounter as nearly every post I see on these boards is from or refers to suite guests.   I certainly have begun to feel second rate and that isn't tongue in cheek!

Yes I know it was tongue and cheek as was my response back to you.  But it is actually a fairly frequent comment here on the Celebrity board.  I personally would worry less about suite guests and worry more about being put in isolation and quarantine no matter whatever your cabin category happens to be.

[cruisefam38]

5 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

They will not mothball an E-Class ship

Or tap / put the brakes on introducing more E-class ships.

 

[HMR74]

2 minutes ago, cruisefam38 said:

Mahdnc:

The normal excellent service was included on the Reflection during a Caribbean cruise.  We booked another cruise scheduled for autumn of 2023  because of our thorough satisfaction with that cruise.

Always Included is a goal to strive for by Celebrity.  As Ipee has repeatedly suggested, maybe some serious reconsideration to fleet deployment must be enacted.

looks like Princess is going to the all inclusive.

I think its a good idea as it streamlines the process.

 

On your  Reflection cruise, what was the occupancy? The TA just now had about 1,000 guests vs the 2800 normal capacity. Staff waiting around to take care of the guests is a factor. Thats flipped to too many guests to staff  now and the issue of being able to work. Guests in quarantine still need to be served.

 

This is like the  people/entertainers who try to keep plates spinning on a bunch of sticks-the plates will fall.

 

[Oceangoer2]

5 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

If getting more staff onboard any company's ships is going to require a rise in wages then inevitably the answer will have to be the cruising public will have to pay more as well.  The cruise lines are no doubt trying to keep these price rises down due to global recession biting and cutbacks onboard will be one way to do this.  It's going to be a vicious circle.  How do they keep the top end guests using the Retreat, Haven, Grills or whatever they call their high end cabins happy while keeping the bread and butter end in the insides, outsides and balconies actually able to afford to carrying on cruising?  

 

As a newcomer to the Celebrity brand I have gained the impression that they sell well to the high end guests based on the service they offer to Retreat passengers.  As a "steerage" class passenger with limited resources I read little here about the experience I may expect although I'm certain it will be good.  Perhaps my expectations will be nearer to what Celebrity are offering or maybe I too will think for the "premium fare" compared with Princess, P&O etc they are not for me.  I remain positive and hope the experience will be better than on those lines.

Keep thinking positive...!!  ....your service in other than 'retreat' will be JUST AS GOOD if not as personal in some respects.  You won't have the separate dining room for suite guests, but the main dining room(s) are very lovely and the food is super...just sometimes not as 'fancy' in their composition and presentation.  Your pool experience will be more 'lively' (crowded) vs the retreat pool - but that location can be crowded as well.  Personal butlers (hosts) and the separate 'Michaels Club' can be used or not, personally we like to enjoy all the ship locations and not be confined to one 'club';  as for the butlers we prefer to do for ourselves.  We have enjoyed all these levels of the Celebrity experience so do NOT feel you are 'steerage' class.  We are all HUMAN class with differing tastes and budgets. The advantage for us in suite class is a larger cabin and verandah but that can be easily passed on if price is way out of what we think is fair for the offering. 

[NutsAboutGolf]

19 minutes ago, cruisefam38 said:

Or tap / put the brakes on introducing more E-class ships.

 

 

Lol...That's as unlikely as X canceling and refunding suite guests to reduce suite capacity

[cruisefam38]

25 minutes ago, HMR74 said:

On your  Reflection cruise, what was the occupancy?

4/9 to 4/18  Eastern Caribbean, and we sailed with roughly half capacity, 1500-/+. 

We rated the crew morale as very good, and as mentioned above, the service was top notch.

Increasing occupancy without being able to increase staff and crew is a recipe for trouble, though.

Edited May 18, 2022 by cruisefam38

[cruisefam38]

4 minutes ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

That's as unlikely as X canceling and refunding suite guests to reduce suite capacity

What.  How.  What are you talking about?  That's .... 

[Cruising89143]

I also wonder how many crew members have tested positive for Covid at a given time and have been quarantined? Just a few crew members in the same department can cause havoc and severe shortages. There is no way to just replace crew members at the last moment. Two weeks ago one of our favorite bartenders on the Navigator disappeared after Tuesday. Did not see him again the entire cruise. I’m sure that this story repeats itself over and over. 
 

If guests are testing positive as we have read then there’s no doubt that the crew is experiencing this also. We may see some health protocol changes soon by the cruise lines to try and slow this down. Not sure that there is an easy answer at this time. 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Yes I know it was tongue and cheek as was my response back to you.  But it is actually a fairly frequent comment here on the Celebrity board.  I personally would worry less about suite guests and worry more about being put in isolation and quarantine no matter whatever your cabin category happens to be.

To be honest isolation and quarantine doesn't worry me one iota if I'm in Europe.  Since last September I have been engaged at a high level with two UK based cruise lines on this issue and also with a large number of UK insurers and government bodies about requirements.  I may be very unlucky but go into any cruise with my eyes very widely open, know my rights in each place I'm visiting and know for certain in writing that every scenario I have so far heard of or envisaged is fully covered by my insurance.

 

My comments on Celebrity's protocols and quarantine are based very much on how at the beginning of my work on this issue, they were a guiding beacon quoted by all involved as a company who really were intent on looking after their guests.  I used their policies as very much the standard the other lines should strive for and through the winter that has been very much the case.  

 

When looking to book a cruise with my friend she chose Celebrity based on her experience on her one cruise 8 years ago.  I was happy with her choice due to the protocols and Celebrity's reputation.  What I failed to take into account was Celebrity's massive policy changes moving them from the top of the pile to the bottom and the apparent growth of the ship within a ship idea of The Retreat.  I now find myself worrying about overcrowding, long waits in the MDR, preferential treatment for reservations for other services if general staff are moved to prioritise the suite guests and reading of a general drop in customer care.

 

I am very much used to  "split facilities" cruises being a diamond Cunard cruiser so I had no worries previously about those paying more having separate restaurants etc.   What is concerning me is that having been directed to this forum by my Cunard and P&O fellow posters because "the Celebrity board is full of great information and they are a friendly bunch" I have visions of half the ship being out of bounds to us and facilities fully booked in advance to suite guests - the specialty restaurants for instance.

[HMR74]

2 hours ago, Oceangoer2 said:

The advantage for us in suite class is a larger cabin and verandah but that can be easily passed on if price is way out of what we think is fair for the offering. 

The key comment ^   it is all about perceived value. One key i have is for a longer cruise, the cabin space is nice to have. And late night I have the retreat lounge to go to to read, surf the internet and not keep my wife awake.

 

The Oceanview Cafe late night, the starkness when few people are ther reminds me of the College Student union duriing finals when the best place to go and get peace and quiet was the Student Union Cafeteria-until they started serving beer because the Busch family agreed to build a new facility if it served Bud beer.

[JFontaine]

3 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

  I'm quite nervous after 70 sailings on other lines as to what I may encounter as nearly every post I see on these boards is from or refers to suite guests.   I certainly have begun to feel second rate and that isn't tongue in cheek!

I cruise in Celebrity's highest end suites (and feel lucky and blessed to do so).  I have tried and can afford the true luxury lines.  But I keep returning to Celebrity in part because of what I find when I leave my cabin: food (including main dining room, where I ate 3 of 7 nights on the Edge - found it far preferable to Luminae), entertainment,  size of venues and decks (including ceiling heights), and kind, professional management.  In 20 years of participating in Cruise Critics one thing hasnt changed - the name "critic" proved to be accurate. I hope you enjoy your cruise.  I've enjoyed all of mine.