Orion Embark Time Change

[Mich3554]

10 minutes ago, TravlingGato said:

We are stuck with paying $200. each for airport PCR tests. just to assure our arrival in Canada. We have scheduled a less than 48 hour test window based on the unreliability of air transport schedules.  ByTheWay---have received no info from Viking about coping with Viking-booked  airline schedule changes at the airport or with the connecting airport.  Our long-experienced travel agent has been more than patient in dealing with Viking frustrations.  So far this is our worst travel experience in 30 cruises, and we aren't even on the ship yet.

Viking is needing to respond to airline cancellations.  They cannot control airline schedule changes, only inform you of them.  

[sabrefan]

After getting a email from Viking on 5/26/22 regarding boarding time change I scrambled around to get covid antigen testing done late afternoon on 6/11/22 in Vancouver because Viking had no flexibility on their 24 hour time limit. 
 

Yesterday I was looking through Covid-19 Cruise Ship Travel published by the government of Canada. Getting an embarkation test before you board a ship that will dock in Canada. To get to the main point this document states, proof of a professionally administered or observed negative antigen test taken no more than 2 days before you’re scheduled to board the ship. The detail states the 2 day window does not depend on the time of the day the test was taken or the time that you board. For example if your ship is scheduled to leave on Friday, you could provide proof of a negative result from an antigen test taken anytime on Wednesday, Thursday or on Friday. 
 

Not sure why Viking does not know of the Canadian regulations?

[deec]

Perhaps it is a VIKING requirement not Canadian government.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, sabrefan said:

After getting a email from Viking on 5/26/22 regarding boarding time change I scrambled around to get covid antigen testing done late afternoon on 6/11/22 in Vancouver because Viking had no flexibility on their 24 hour time limit. 
 

Yesterday I was looking through Covid-19 Cruise Ship Travel published by the government of Canada. Getting an embarkation test before you board a ship that will dock in Canada. To get to the main point this document states, proof of a professionally administered or observed negative antigen test taken no more than 2 days before you’re scheduled to board the ship. The detail states the 2 day window does not depend on the time of the day the test was taken or the time that you board. For example if your ship is scheduled to leave on Friday, you could provide proof of a negative result from an antigen test taken anytime on Wednesday, Thursday or on Friday. 
 

Not sure why Viking does not know of the Canadian regulations?

 

Viking, as with all cruise lines must have internal policies & procedures in accordance with the ISM Code and, in addition, must also comply with the requirements of local authorities.

 

When the cruise line policy and the requirements of the local authorities are not consistent, the cruise line must comply with their internal requirements, if they are of a higher standard than the local requirements. However, where the local requirements are of a higher standard, the ship must increase their standard.

 

An example is the mega ships that normally use the US CDC standard that doesn't require all pax to be vaccinated. When those ships cruise into Canada they must meet the Canadian requirements of 100% vaccinated with minimal exemptions.

 

Clearly Viking know the local requirements, as that is one of the first lessons in ship management.

[Pushka]

On 6/1/2022 at 12:11 AM, sabrefan said:

Received our e docs for the  cruise yesterday, they stated that we could board at 1:00pm. The itinerary in the e-docs showed an anchor symbol for Vancouver indicating a tender port, interesting. So I got in touch with my travel agent to get further clarification from Viking since the e docs did not agree with the email I received from Viking on May 26th. Anyway my travel agent stated that the email was the correct information and we would be tendered to the ship in Vancouver harbor. Very interesting, I wonder when Viking discovered that there would not be enough dock space as normal in the morning when they disembark. I would think that the passengers on Orion going from Seward to Vancouver would also have to take the tender as well.

We were not allowed to board by tender in the port of Vancouver. It was complicated I think because of marine traffic and border control. We had to wait for a berth to become available. At 5.30pm then allowed to board. 

[sabrefan]

If passengers that are currently on the Viking Orion sailing from Seward are not allowed to use a tender to get ashore, it should be very interesting how this disembarking and embarking on 6/12/22 looks like. I wonder if Viking will be giving passengers some shipboard credit since we will be short of the normal amount of time on the ship? It would sure be nice to know how long ago Viking knew of this situation.

[Heidi13]

53 minutes ago, sabrefan said:

If passengers that are currently on the Viking Orion sailing from Seward are not allowed to use a tender to get ashore, it should be very interesting how this disembarking and embarking on 6/12/22 looks like. I wonder if Viking will be giving passengers some shipboard credit since we will be short of the normal amount of time on the ship? It would sure be nice to know how long ago Viking knew of this situation.

 

In the previous case, the Canadian Immigration did permit disembarkation at anchor, by tender.

 

As Puska mentioned, it was the embarkation by tender that was vetoed by one of the Border Agencies.

 

Since you can embark as late as 2-hours before departure, it is hardly a major reduction in time on board the ship. Look on the positive side, you have more time to experience all that the embarkation port has to offer. You will also have a vastly superior boarding process, rather than fighting your way into and then through a very crowded terminal. Not contending with the sea of humanity in the terminal may also reduce some of the COVID cases identified on board the vessel.

 

Rather than lunch onboard, you can enjoy lunch at one of Vancouver's many restaurants, which include almost every type of cuisine.

[TravlingGato]

We  received notice  from Viking  that Vancouver embarkation  is by tender. Can't believe it having debarked in Vancouver  at Canada Place many  times. It's a complex, busy port. 

[sabrefan]

TravelingGato, my travel agent told me of this. I am wondering how they will load provisions on the ship, plus passenger luggage. Certainly not by tender, maybe a barge. I have called Viking twice to ask about departure time and they tell me 5:00pm. I will believe that when I see it. If you go the Vancouver Cruise Port web site they show a departure time of 10:00pm.

[Heidi13]

We have discharged entire ship's cargo at anchor, so a little baggage and stores is not impossible. Might be a little more work for the crew, but easily doable with planning. Vancouver Harbour has inner anchorages located just off Canada Place, so closer than most tender ports.

 

The departure time is significant, as it dictates which tide the ship uses at Seymour Narrows, which is 100 miles from Vancouver. The BC Coast pilots will only transit within 1 hr of slack water, as the tides can reach 16 kts.

[sabrefan]

Heidi13, thank for the additional information regarding the possibility of Viking being successful in having to tender passengers and supplies within the harbor. How accurate is the 10:00pm departure time for Orion  that is shown in the Vancouver Cruise Port schedule on line?

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, sabrefan said:

Heidi13, thank for the additional information regarding the possibility of Viking being successful in having to tender passengers and supplies within the harbor. How accurate is the 10:00pm departure time for Orion  that is shown in the Vancouver Cruise Port schedule on line?

 

The port's estimated departure time is little more than an educated guess, but in this case, it depends on what can be accomplished at anchor. Here are a few bits of extra information, as I just checked the Seymour tides, which are a key consideration. 

 

Best guess is that Orion will dock alongside once a berth is free, probably secured by 18:00. If they can do embarkation by tender, it will certainly cut down the amount of time alongside. They can load baggage by barge, similar to Greenwich, but it is easier alongside. If they can achieve pax embarkation by tender and load baggage/stores by barge, you could easily sail prior to 22:00.

 

The tides at Seymour (June 13th) show:

• HWS at 01:57
• LWS at 08:52

 

Therefore, using the BC Coast Pilot guidelines, they can transit between about 01:00 and 03:00. It is 100 miles up to Seymour, so allowing for departing the berth, exiting the harbour, I would want to allow at least 6 hrs, so she must sail by about 21:00 to comfortably make that tide.

 

Missing that tide provides more flexibility in departure, but means the ship will be bucking big tides. Heading for LWS means she will buck the big tide most of the way up to Campbell River and once through Seymour she will again be bucking the flood tide that comes in from the top of Vancouver Island. If I was the Master, my preference would be hitting the HWS before 03:00.

 

If she doesn't get alongside until close to 18:00 and has to load all pax, baggage and stores, it would be very tight to complete by 21:00.

 

Since it is also a big tide at Seymour, they don't have much wiggle room. On the ferries, we transitted at any state of tide and I can assure you it is tough when the tide is running. They are running North with the ebb, which isn't the most challenging.

 

Hopefully it all works out well and you arrive in Ketchikan, as scheduled.

[sabrefan]

Heidi, thank you for the detailed explanation. It sounds like Viking would be well ahead loading luggage, passengers and provisions as much as possible starting by 5:00pm. We have sailed out of Vancouver two previous times before and enjoy the harbor area. Our friends traveling with us however, this will be their first time to Vancouver and Alaska. Fortunately we do not have an excursion in Ketchikan as I know that port will be packed with other ships. Thanks again for all your advice.

[55Division]

According to my itinerary, we embark June 12, cruise the Inside Passage on June 13, and arrive in Ketchikan on June 14.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, 55Division said:

According to my itinerary, we embark June 12, cruise the Inside Passage on June 13, and arrive in Ketchikan on June 14.

 

Affirmative, that is the standard Alaska itinerary. Sabrefan has pointed out that Orion is one of 4 ships in Vancouver that day and the port only has space for 3 of them. Therefore, Orion is showing at anchor and the Metro Port Vancouver schedule shows her alongside from 17:00 to 22:00.

 

As I explained above, it is not a case of setting a speed direct from Vancouver to Ketchikan, as they are constrained by the tides at Seymour Narrows. If she makes the HWS she will have an easy 2 or 3 engine transit, arriving on time.

 

If she makes the 07:30 LWS, she can still make the arrival in Ketchikan, which I believe is about 11:00, but will require a speed of over 16.5 kts.

[PlanoTim]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:00 PM, Heidi13 said:

We have discharged entire ship's cargo at anchor, so a little baggage and stores is not impossible. Might be a little more work for the crew, but easily doable with planning. Vancouver Harbour has inner anchorages located just off Canada Place, so closer than most tender ports.

 

The departure time is significant, as it dictates which tide the ship uses at Seymour Narrows, which is 100 miles from Vancouver. The BC Coast pilots will only transit within 1 hr of slack water, as the tides can reach 16 kts.

Thanks, Captain Andy, for the info you share with us here on CC.  You mention the 16 knot tide that can happen at the Seymour Narrows.  Is that just the tide coming into the Strait of Georgia or is there a similar tide going out?  I know little about seamanship, but I would think transiting a narrow passage would be difficult going with a 16 knot tide as well.  Am I all wet?  Thanks,

Tim

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, PlanoTim said:

Thanks, Captain Andy, for the info you share with us here on CC.  You mention the 16 knot tide that can happen at the Seymour Narrows.  Is that just the tide coming into the Strait of Georgia or is there a similar tide going out?  I know little about seamanship, but I would think transiting a narrow passage would be difficult going with a 16 knot tide as well.  Am I all wet?  Thanks,

Tim

 

Tim,

 

The tides come in around the top of Vancouver Island and also along Juan de Fuca at the bottom of Vancouver Island. The 2 tides meet just South of Campbell River. Therefore, in Georgia Strait the flood tide is going North and Ebb tide is southerly. North of Seymour Narrows, because that tide is coming in from the top of Vancouver Island, the flood tide is southerly and ebb tide heads north.

 

To give you an idea, I suggest having a look on Google maps and I'll try to explain how the tides run in this area. Hopefully, it will give you an idea.

 

Coming south through Seymour with a 16 kt flood is definitely interesting, as the ship is doing about 30 kts and is not very responsive, requiring lots of helm. You basically keep her in the middle and use lots of helm, when you need to turn.

 

Coming into a 15-16 kts flood tide, is more challenging, as we ran the back eddies, to pick up time. If you check out Seymour Narrows, the flood tide comes south through the narrow gap and then alters to port, following the channel. As with similar tides, this creates back-eddies close to the shore. We ran up the back eddy on the stbd shore (Maude Island), then had to judge the wall of tide coming through the gap, as we must get the ship's head moving into the tide before hitting it. We used full stbd helm to get the swing started before hitting the tide. If too late, we had to use port helm and take a round turn.

 

The BC Coast Pilots don't transit in these extreme conditions and to be honest, being older and wiser, I would not run max tides anymore either, if I still took ships up there. I would probably use a wider interval than the pilots, but not anywhere close to the max tides. Did it 40 yrs ago, 4-times a week regardless of how the tide was running.

[PlanoTim]

21 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Tim,

 

The tides come in around the top of Vancouver Island and also along Juan de Fuca at the bottom of Vancouver Island. The 2 tides meet just South of Campbell River. Therefore, in Georgia Strait the flood tide is going North and Ebb tide is southerly. North of Seymour Narrows, because that tide is coming in from the top of Vancouver Island, the flood tide is southerly and ebb tide heads north.

 

To give you an idea, I suggest having a look on Google maps and I'll try to explain how the tides run in this area. Hopefully, it will give you an idea.

 

Coming south through Seymour with a 16 kt flood is definitely interesting, as the ship is doing about 30 kts and is not very responsive, requiring lots of helm. You basically keep her in the middle and use lots of helm, when you need to turn.

 

Coming into a 15-16 kts flood tide, is more challenging, as we ran the back eddies, to pick up time. If you check out Seymour Narrows, the flood tide comes south through the narrow gap and then alters to port, following the channel. As with similar tides, this creates back-eddies close to the shore. We ran up the back eddy on the stbd shore (Maude Island), then had to judge the wall of tide coming through the gap, as we must get the ship's head moving into the tide before hitting it. We used full stbd helm to get the swing started before hitting the tide. If too late, we had to use port helm and take a round turn.

 

The BC Coast Pilots don't transit in these extreme conditions and to be honest, being older and wiser, I would not run max tides anymore either, if I still took ships up there. I would probably use a wider interval than the pilots, but not anywhere close to the max tides. Did it 40 yrs ago, 4-times a week regardless of how the tide was running.

Thanks so much for the description.  Are you sure you’re not talking about zipping around in a kayak? 😜  That sounds like a true challenge.  I bet it is wild to zoom through a narrow channel at 30 knots.  The proximity to shore must make it seem even faster.  Looking forward to heading through there on Viking Orion the last day of August.  Thanks!

Tim

[Heidi13]

20 hours ago, PlanoTim said:

Thanks so much for the description.  Are you sure you’re not talking about zipping around in a kayak? 😜  That sounds like a true challenge.  I bet it is wild to zoom through a narrow channel at 30 knots.  The proximity to shore must make it seem even faster.  Looking forward to heading through there on Viking Orion the last day of August.  Thanks!

Tim

 

Seymour is the best-known narrow channel, but they have 2 others between there and the top end of Vancouver Island. Really is great scenery the entire way.

[Pushka]

From memory, last time Orion came to port very early before other arrivals and disembarked everyone and then went out to anchor but could be wrong. 

[55Division]

After waiting all day to embark, we’re still in Vancouver.  Woke up this morning surprised to see we never left the port. A cable broke, safety issue, the captain announced we hope to leave tonight, but if we don’t leave by 18:00, we’ll have to wait until tomorrow morning.

[Pushka]

11 hours ago, 55Division said:

After waiting all day to embark, we’re still in Vancouver.  Woke up this morning surprised to see we never left the port. A cable broke, safety issue, the captain announced we hope to leave tonight, but if we don’t leave by 18:00, we’ll have to wait until tomorrow morning.

Oh I’m so sorry this happened. It messes around with ports now. They will likely have to skip one. 

[Clay Clayton]

Based on cruisemapper looks like they finally left Vancouver!

[Heidi13]

5 hours ago, Clay Clayton said:

Based on cruisemapper looks like they finally left Vancouver!

 

Although they aren't using the narrow Inside Passage, the Captain is at least giving them a more scenic routing inside of Aristazabal Island and hopefully also inside Banks Island. Way better than Hecate Strait.

 

Additional cost to Viking, as these are compulsory pilotage waters, so the pilot fees will increase significantly.