Polaris hit by rouge wave

[Heidi13]

10 minutes ago, Newleno said:

A little confused here, are you saying the windows in question on the Polaris, a person would be able to open and close them?  If so that would explain a lot.

 

Yes, that is common knowledge, being posted in the cabin category descriptions on the Viking website.

 

Similar to the days of "Deadlights", the ship will have an SoP requiring cabin stewards to ensure they are closed and secured, as required by the Master.

[Iloveketo]

52 minutes ago, oskidunker said:

Have no idea. Guessing. Never been on the ship

Windows do go down halfway. I was on the Octantis in May. 

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

1 hour ago, Newleno said:

A little confused here, are you saying the windows in question on the Polaris, a person would be able to open and close them?  If so that would explain a lot.

All rooms have French Verandas. The window is very large and opens from the top down half way. It is done by pushing a button, you don't literally open the window by hand. They are lovely. We did not know if we would like them, but we really enjoyed it. Anywhere it is cold, I would assume people would not open them as the room would immediately become very cold. 

[SoBaycruiser]

1 hour ago, Newleno said:

A little confused here, are you saying the windows in question on the Polaris, a person would be able to open and close them?  If so that would explain a lot.

Apparently, according to the stateroom descriptions, “Nordic Balcony are French Balcony staterooms with a retractable glass (down-sliding / opening) window. ”.

 

 

[LindaS272]

Check it out:

https://www.vikingcruises.com/expeditions/ships/viking-polaris.html

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

Similar to the days of "Deadlights", the ship will have an SoP requiring cabin stewards to ensure they are closed and secured, as required by the Master.

I believe that they are controlled similarly to the Celebrity "Infinite balcony" windows, where the bridge has a complete override of the window controls.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

I believe that they are controlled similarly to the Celebrity "Infinite balcony" windows, where the bridge has a complete override of the window controls.

 

Thanks Chief - Should have thought that was possible these days😁

[CurlerRob]

5 hours ago, Newleno said:

A little confused here, are you saying the windows in question on the Polaris, a person would be able to open and close them?  If so that would explain a lot.

The windows on Polaris have a top section that can be lowered. See https://www.vikingcruises.com/expeditions/ships/viking-polaris.html 

 

That is unlikely to have been a factor in this situation. First, you’ll notice that the entire window and frame has been smashed by the seas in those cabins affected, not just a portion. Whether the windows open or not would not have altered the damage.
 

Secondly, I can’t imagine multiple pax lowering windows in an Antarctic storm (which could have allowed easier water entry). 

 

The hit that Polaris took was going to cause damage no matter what - tragic bad luck for those who were sadly in the wrong place. 🍺🥌

[oskidunker]

And what if your head is out the window when the bridge closesbthem?

[PasadenaDave]

1 hour ago, oskidunker said:

And what if your head is out the window when the bridge closesbthem?

Likely a kickback mechanism similar to an automatic gate such as in a parking structure.  When resistance is met before closure it kicks back.

[Heartgrove]

Looking at a closeup photo of the port side where the rogue wave allegedly hit, windows (my numbering from forward and left to right of the photo in Post #11 of this thread) #5 through #11 were compromised by the incident. Windows #5, #10, and #11 appear to have the lower pane missing. Windows #2 through #9 appear to hve both upper and lower panes missing. That is quite a bit of surface area missing which would account for the amount of water taken aboard.

 

We will not know if the window lowering/raising mechanism was under bridge control until the report is published 1-2 years from now. At that time we will also find out if there was any window under  passenger control. 

 

I do not know the distance above the water surface for Deck 2 windows. Perhaps the stateroom windows on Deck 2 should have been fixed in place instead of movable as they are on Deck 1. That would entail a different design and smaller opening. But that would also present a marketing problem for Viking Ocean as they would only be classified as Oceanview staterooms.  Gone would be the marketing tagline "Our intimate, all-veranda ships ..."

 

I am suprised that there does not appear to be any Damage Control for the affected area after the incident present in the photo the next day. I would think that there would have been an attempt to close up the hull with plywood, or at the least mattresses.

[cruiseej]

20 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

I am suprised that there does not appear to be any Damage Control for the affected area after the incident present in the photo the next day. I would think that there would have been an attempt to close up the hull with plywood, or at the least mattresses.

 

My guess would be that the crew was instructed to leave things alone until the accident investigators had a chance to thoroughly comb through the wreckage, photograph everything, and retrieve various parts for subsequent testing in a lab. I'd also assume some of those involved in the accident investigation had to scramble and fly to Ushuaia from other parts of the world. 

[Heartgrove]

3 hours ago, cruiseej said:

 

My guess would be that the crew was instructed to leave things alone until the accident investigators had a chance to thoroughly comb through the wreckage, photograph everything, and retrieve various parts for subsequent testing in a lab. I'd also assume some of those involved in the accident investigation had to scramble and fly to Ushuaia from other parts of the world. 

 

Primary should be maintaining integrity of the ship.

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

 

Primary should be maintaining integrity of the ship.

 

Immediately post incident, with the vessel still at sea, the Master's priorities are first and foremost responding to any situation immediately dangerous to life and health, then the safety of the ship and the safety of the crew and pax.

 

Once the master was advised of the damage, I expect she will have altered course to place the damaged section in the lee, which significantly reduces and possibly eliminates further ingress of water. This provides time for the emergency response party to enter the area to evacuate any pax. Based on reports from actual pax on another site, crew responders were on scene in about 30 secs.

 

When all pax from the cabins are accounted for the Master, Staff Captain and Chief Engineer will develop a plan to maintain the safety of the ship, ensuring the safety of the crew completing these tasks. In addition to blanking the windows from the outside, which is no easy task in heavy weather, they also have an option to manage water ingress with courses steered and pumps, if required. 

 

As a Master, we learn how to jury rig external covers to blank off a hole in the hull/superstructure. However, in this case, due to the storm conditions and the known facts, I would most likely have opted to manage the ingress of water using courses steered, and if required, set up equipment to remove the water. The risks to the crew in rigging external blanks would be considerable and very time consuming. Blocking the windows from inside would be ineffective, unless the damaged area was in a lee, and could potentially disturb evidence required for the inquiry.

[Heartgrove]

I'll wait for the official report.

[Cienfuegos]

Good thread, thanks for the experienced overview of the situation.

 

Prayers for the injured travelers and crew. This is a terrible way to end a cruise to the ends of the earth

[Midnight Cruiser]

15 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As someone who has been on two ships that were struck by rogue waves, I can tell you that no ship is designed to come through those experiences intact.

Your expertise and qualifications clearly exceed mine.  Most impressive!  So let me ask you:

1) How common are waves meeting the definition of rogue waves in the Southern Ocean?  Based on the number of capsizings, I would surmise that they are much more common there than anywhere else in the world.

2) If this was actually a rogue wave, why were the cabin windows on the next deck up not damaged?  

3) Why did any of the agencies etc. that you mentioned allow a shipbuilder to put large opening and breakable windows into the *hull* of a craft supposedly specifically designed to explore the most infamous ocean of the world?

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Cruiser said:

1) How common are waves meeting the definition of rogue waves in the Southern Ocean?  Based on the number of capsizings, I would surmise that they are much more common there than anywhere else in the world.

I don't believe that there is any scientific data to support your supposition.  Due to the short lived nature of rogue waves, it is difficult for scientists to determine how many there are, short of reports from vessels that have actually encountered them.  The two I've encountered, one was in the North Atlantic, and one was off of Rio de Janeiro, over 4000 km north of the Drake passage.

 

7 minutes ago, Midnight Cruiser said:

2) If this was actually a rogue wave, why were the cabin windows on the next deck up not damaged? 

That will need forensic engineering analysis, but would depend on how the wave struck the ship, exactly, and the windows a deck up are subject to lesser force than the ones that failed, perhaps by hundreds of tons of force.

 

9 minutes ago, Midnight Cruiser said:

3) Why did any of the agencies etc. that you mentioned allow a shipbuilder to put large opening and breakable windows into the *hull* of a craft supposedly specifically designed to explore the most infamous ocean of the world?

Please tell me about any "unbreakable" window, anywhere in the world.  Even Musk's "unbreakable" windows in his electric truck broke during it's unveiling.  Why did the class societies allow these windows on this ship?  Because engineering data and over a hundred years of experience in underwriting shipbuilding and maintenance, they decided that the windows were of sufficient strength to sail anywhere in the world.

 

One of my experiences with a rogue wave, the impact on the ship snapped an underwater sea water pipe, causing flooding of an engineering space.  Even though that pipe had been determined as safe and seaworthy for any ocean, the power of a rogue wave still snapped it, and led to a night of patching and packing while being drenched in cold sea water.

[Midnight Cruiser]

53 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't believe that there is any scientific data to support your supposition.  Due to the short lived nature of rogue waves, it is difficult for scientists to determine how many there are, short of reports from vessels that have actually encountered them.  The two I've encountered, one was in the North Atlantic, and one was off of Rio de Janeiro, over 4000 km north of the Drake passage.

My supposition is based on following and sponsoring round-the-world sailboat races.  Almost all of the capsizing was in the Southern Ocean.

53 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Please tell me about any "unbreakable" window, anywhere in the world.  Even Musk's "unbreakable" windows in his electric truck broke during it's unveiling.  Why did the class societies allow these windows on this ship?  Because engineering data and over a hundred years of experience in underwriting shipbuilding and maintenance, they decided that the windows were of sufficient strength to sail anywhere in the world.

Well apparently, they were wrong.  What is the point of making a strong hull that can stand up to heavy weather than then making large holes in it and filling in the holes with breakable material that is weaker than the hull?  I think you are right: they did not know that.  But now they do.  It will be interesting to see what Lloyds says when the ship has to be resurveyed.

53 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

One of my experiences with a rogue wave, the impact on the ship snapped an underwater sea water pipe, causing flooding of an engineering space.  Even though that pipe had been determined as safe and seaworthy for any ocean, the power of a rogue wave still snapped it, and led to a night of patching and packing while being drenched in cold sea water.

Interesting story!  Thanks for sharing.

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, Midnight Cruiser said:

Well apparently, they were wrong.  What is the point of making a strong hull that can stand up to heavy weather than then making large holes in it and filling in the holes with breakable material that is weaker than the hull?  I think you are right: they did not know that.  But now they do.  It will be interesting to see what Lloyds says when the ship has to be resurveyed.

Not apparently wrong.  As said, no ship is ever designed to never have a failure when unusual circumstances happen.  Despite your conjecture that there are more rogue waves in the Drake passage than elsewhere, they are rare, everywhere (latest estimates are that there are 10 present at any time, anywhere in the world), and so the need to design for the low likelihood of encountering one is not considered.  Do your racing sailboats redesign themselves to survive capsizing in rogue waves?

 

The ships are not classed by Lloyds, but by DNV.  Here is the condition of class (repairs that need to be made to again meet class standards to sail) issued to the Polaris on this incident:

 

2022-12-07, Buenos Aires

Damages on port side at Deck No.2 level, between frames #188 and 216 are to be repaired. The following conditions are to be complied with for the single voyage from Ushuaia to the repair shipyard at Punta Arenas: - The voyage shall be undertaken without passengers - The damaged cabins and corridor shall be isolated. - Alternative escape routes shall be arranged if needed. - Weather routing shall be applied and it should be avoided to expose port side to the open sea. - Controls / safeguards described in the relevant risk assessment shall be implemented on board before departure.

 

There is no mention of "reclassification" or any modification to the ship.  It is to be repaired back to original.  Now, if the AIBN investigation determines that the window failures were of such nature as to pose a high probability of failure again (i.e. not in a low probability situation like a rogue wave), then it may recommend to class to revisit the standards, and DNV may study it and may decide to either revise or not the requirements.

[Midnight Cruiser]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Not apparently wrong.  As said, no ship is ever designed to never have a failure when unusual circumstances happen.  Despite your conjecture that there are more rogue waves in the Drake passage than elsewhere, they are rare, everywhere (latest estimates are that there are 10 present at any time, anywhere in the world), and so the need to design for the low likelihood of encountering one is not considered.  Do your racing sailboats redesign themselves to survive capsizing in rogue waves?

Oh yeah you bet they do.  These racing sailboats are not ordinary boats by any stretch.  All of them are designed be completely safe upside down.  They have EPIRB antennas installed in their hulls so they can transmit an emergency signal while upside down.

[PasadenaDave]

28 minutes ago, Midnight Cruiser said:

Oh yeah you bet they do.  These racing sailboats are not ordinary boats by any stretch.  All of them are designed be completely safe upside down.  They have EPIRB antennas installed in their hulls so they can transmit an emergency signal while upside down.

Actually the present Golden Globe race involves production boats with at least 20 boats built from the same mold with a full keel and designed prior to 1988.  Doubtful they are ever upside down for very long given the full keel.  
 

They would likely have major problems if knocked down or pitch polled

[GonzoWCS]

On 12/6/2022 at 1:48 PM, Heartgrove said:

I'll wait for the official report.

I am with you.

 

Cheers

[Midnight Cruiser]

1 hour ago, PasadenaDave said:

Doubtful they are ever upside down for very long given the full keel.  
 

They would likely have major problems if knocked down or pitch polled

I agree.  Interesting race!  Tough guys!

[Midnight Cruiser]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't believe that there is any scientific data to support your supposition.  Due to the short lived nature of rogue waves, it is difficult for scientists to determine how many there are, short of reports from vessels that have actually encountered them.  The two I've encountered, one was in the North Atlantic, and one was off of Rio de Janeiro, over 4000 km north of the Drake passage.

 

From Wikipedia: "The strong winds of the Southern Ocean give rise to correspondingly large waves; these waves can attain great height as they roll around the Southern Ocean, free of any interruption from land. At the Horn, however, these waves encounter an area of shallow water to the south of the Horn, which has the effect of making the waves shorter and steeper, greatly increasing the hazard to ships. If the strong eastward current through the Drake Passage encounters an opposing east wind, this can have the effect of further building up the waves.^[22] In addition to these "normal" waves, the area west of the Horn is particularly notorious for rogue waves, which can attain heights of up to 30 metres (98 feet).^[23]"