New rules for wheelchair users

[david63]

3 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

So it must be designed to reduce the number of disabled passenger

Almost certainly and in a way that is within all equality laws.

 

P&O (or their masters) have made a decision that the having wheelchair/disabled passengers does not fit their passenger demographic going forward.

[AchileLauro]

14 hours ago, david63 said:

Almost certainly and in a way that is within all equality laws.

 

P&O (or their masters) have made a decision that the having wheelchair/disabled passengers does not fit their passenger demographic going forward.

It seems that this is the case, but not out of malice or discrimination. They are simply limiting numbers to those that can be  managed safely in an emergency.

[nosapphire]

If it is any consolation, Saga (who must surely be a line that expects to have passengers with mobility issues) stipulate that if you need to use a wheelchair or mobility scooter on board (not just in the cabin) then you have to book an adapted cabin (which will automatically assign an evacuation chair).

No adapted cabin = no on board wheelchair/scooter (they do not differentiate between powered and non-powered wheelchairs).

If you only need it ashore, you still have to pre-book it, it gets taken from you pre-embarkation,stored below deck and brought out at ports.But no need for an adapted cabin.

Heavy warnings that if you turn up with a wheelchair/scooter that has not been pre-accepted then you will probably be refused boarding (and it gets treated as self-cancellation).

At least Saga have a freephone telephone number, and helpful telephone staff to answer questions about changes of circumstances, cabin suitability and whether or not an evacuation chair needs to be allocated/is available.

Must be a nightmare for any passenger line trying to balance safety requirements and passenger requirements - and it is probably going to get harder.

[cruising.mark.uk]

51 minutes ago, AchileLauro said:

It seems that this is the case, but not out of malice or discrimination. They are simply limiting numbers to those that can be  managed safely in an emergency.

Exactly.

 

I feel really sorry for those who may not be able to cruise in future because of these changes, but sense that the cruise lines are in a no-win situation.  I'm no expert in maritime law, but my understanding is that a cruise line has a requirement in law (as well as a moral imperative) to be able to get everyone safely off the ship if the worst happens.  Whether that law has recently been tightened and / or whether P&O (and Cunard?) have now realised that staff levels preclude them from assisting the same number of passengers with impaired / limited mobility that they may have done in the past, it is clear that they now wish to ensure they can evacuate all passengers safely in an emergency by imposing a specific ceiling on the number of passengers who require assistance with mobility that they will carry on any specific cruise.  They are doing that via a combination of the requirement forms,m limiting the number of evacuation chairs and stipulating that users of associated equipment can only be accommodated in specific cabins.  

 

I do not think it is reasonable to expect the cruise line to risk breaching international or UK maritime law by knowingly embarking more passengers requiring assistance than they can evacuate safely.  They may suffer a little bit of negative publicity because of the way they are implementing this, but I suspect that is a drop in the ocean compared with the media headlines 'Go on a cruise holiday with P&O but be aware that they can't help disabled people get off in an emergency' and grief they would get on social media if they continued operating as they have in the past, knowing that would mean they could not meet their obligations.  And, more important than the negative publicity, that would expose the passengers involved to unacceptable danger and the cruise line to huge legal and financial risk.

[9265359]

30 minutes ago, nosapphire said:

If it is any consolation, Saga (who must surely be a line that expects to have passengers with mobility issues) stipulate that if you need to use a wheelchair or mobility scooter on board (not just in the cabin) then you have to book an adapted cabin (which will automatically assign an evacuation chair).

No adapted cabin = no on board wheelchair/scooter (they do not differentiate between powered and non-powered wheelchairs).

If you only need it ashore, you still have to pre-book it, it gets taken from you pre-embarkation, stored below deck and brought out at ports. But no need for an adapted cabin.

 

But do they allocate an evac chair to those individuals with stored wheelchairs and mobility scooters?

 

If not, then that seems a pretty risky gamble.

[pete14]

1 hour ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

Exactly.

 

I feel really sorry for those who may not be able to cruise in future because of these changes, but sense that the cruise lines are in a no-win situation.  I'm no expert in maritime law, but my understanding is that a cruise line has a requirement in law (as well as a moral imperative) to be able to get everyone safely off the ship if the worst happens.  Whether that law has recently been tightened and / or whether P&O (and Cunard?) have now realised that staff levels preclude them from assisting the same number of passengers with impaired / limited mobility that they may have done in the past, it is clear that they now wish to ensure they can evacuate all passengers safely in an emergency by imposing a specific ceiling on the number of passengers who require assistance with mobility that they will carry on any specific cruise.  They are doing that via a combination of the requirement forms,m limiting the number of evacuation chairs and stipulating that users of associated equipment can only be accommodated in specific cabins.  

 

I do not think it is reasonable to expect the cruise line to risk breaching international or UK maritime law by knowingly embarking more passengers requiring assistance than they can evacuate safely.  They may suffer a little bit of negative publicity because of the way they are implementing this, but I suspect that is a drop in the ocean compared with the media headlines 'Go on a cruise holiday with P&O but be aware that they can't help disabled people get off in an emergency' and grief they would get on social media if they continued operating as they have in the past, knowing that would mean they could not meet their obligations.  And, more important than the negative publicity, that would expose the passengers involved to unacceptable danger and the cruise line to huge legal and financial risk.

I completely agree with what you have put. I can only imagine and fear what would happen if the need arose to summon passengers to muster stations because of an emergency under the old arrangements. Through no fault of their own, those with poor mobility could cause blockages in corridors and on the stairs and in all the confusion and panic, possibly with only emergency lighting, are likely to end up being trampled underfoot in the chaos that would ensue. 
 

I realise that this is new arrangement is likely to limit the number of people with poor or no mobility from cruising but not cruising must be preferable to being in an emergency situation and not being able to evacuate safely if the situation ever arose. P&O may not have handled this new regulation very well but once it beds in, we should get to a new and safer normal. It is just a pity that through no fault of their own, some may either have to book earlier so that arrangements can be made to guarantee their safety or get used to cruising less or not at all. 
 

Edited 18 minutes ago by pete14

[nosapphire]

28 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

But do they allocate an evac chair to those individuals with stored wheelchairs and mobility scooters?

 

If not, then that seems a pretty risky gamble.

Why?

It is - reasonably - assumed that anyone who needs to use a wheelchair/scooter on board will also be in need of an evacuation chair in an emergency, hence the automatic allocation.

People who do NOT need to use a wheelchair/scooter whilst on board are in exactly the same position as everybody else - they have to declare whether or not they think they will need assistance in the event of an emergency.

(Fortunately, the requirement is to be able to make your own way - nobody says "can you run?")

The stored wheelchairs/scooters are not available to be used at any time on board, and are not available to be used at embarkation or disembarkation.

In the main, it is scooters that get stored so that people who are mobile but cannot walk long distances ashore can enjoy independent strolls (wheels?) around the ports visited.