Live from the Joy 3/23/24: 60+ people missed the ship due to severe weather in Miami

[UKstages]

2 hours ago, Panhandle Couple said:

Add in...

The Porters are probably unionized, they have their set rules and work days.  If it was raining so hard all day, think they wanted to work an extra 2 hours OT in that rain?

 

oh, geez. that's a whole lot of conjecture and "what ifs."

 

here's a few more...

 

what if the porters are indeed unionized? you're right! they probably do have their set rules and work days. and they probably have a contract that protects them when they are required to work overtime.

 

i say required because none of these jobs are 9 - 5 jobs. that's not what they signed up for. they know they are in a business in which the workday is not done until they're told it's done... typically when the ship they're working on pulls away. 

 

what if that ship was seven hours late getting into miami... would you still feel it was unfair to ask the porters to stay to unload the baggage and load it for the new guests who will be leaving at least seven hours late? you've apparently only thought through one side of the equation. the same operating principles that ensure port workers are there for you when you arrive late ensure that port workers are there when flights get delayed.

 

don't you worry about the porters in either case.  they'll be making an extraordinary amount of overtime. and i never met a union guy or gal who didn't love overtime.

 

ditto the harbor pilot, the check-in agents, the "luggage screeners" and the "cruise port staff." they know what this work entails and they know that they didn't sign up for a 9 - 5 gig. it's in their employment agreement that they may have to work as assigned and may be "held over" in times of need.

 

there may be a lot of valid reasons to justify the captain leaving on time and not waiting for those impacted by air delays. saying that the port workers turn into pumpkins if they don't get home by a certain hour isn't one of them. 

 

2 hours ago, Yesimapirate said:

But we also live in a society where car batteries have warnings on them that ylu shouldn't lick them.

 

you'd think we wouldn't have to do that.

 

little known fact: baskin robbins least popular flavor ever was something called "battery acid and cream." 

 

Edited March 25 by UKstages

[graphicguy]

duplicate

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25 by graphicguy

[graphicguy]

 

 

The OP had great advice...

 

-Come in a day or two early for your cruise.  I've been guilty of not heeding this advice.  But, I've been lucky.  Had a couple of close calls, though.  Enough that I don't fly in the day of the cruise.

 

-NCL booking flights does not guarantee you'll make the ship.  It will give you a cheap flight.  But, that begins and ends when you accept giving up responsibility of booking your flights to NCL (or anyone else other than directly with the airlines, for that matter).

 

Don't trust the weather....yeah....well.....truer words have never been spoken.  This has been true since the beginning of time.  Some want us to have empathy because of the weather related delays and cancellations?  Really?  Why?

 

Weather can muck up flights, excursions, and even the cruises themselves.  I live in Ohio.  Heck, we've even had earthquakes and had a hurricane hit us, an inland state (literally blew the roof off my house).  Bad weather as well as good weather can be hoped for, but never predicted when you book a cruise or a flight so far out.

 

Carry a Passport, regardless.  True...a thousand times true.  Get a passport if you cruise.  I think us veteran cruisers know this and subscribe to it.

 

As far as licking car batteries?  

 

Never, ever have seen that warning.  I've been driving (and servicing my own cars) for a long time, too.

 

That officially jumped the shark. 

 

There seems to be a recurring theme recently.  I saw a whole thread that covered someone whose luggage was lost by the porters in the massive luggage hall post cruise. S/he claimed it was stolen.  Doubtful given the facts.  But, NCL and some of us were chastised because the poster wanted "compassion".

 

Now, some of us are being chastised because neither NCL nor any of us, can control the weather?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25 by graphicguy

[Ozzieru1e]

22 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

I’m guessing there were flight delays here in the nyc area, heave rain and winds all day yesterday.

Sad situation 😫.  That’s why I will not fly for a cruise‼️

[floridafish]

I'd like to know the average number of passengers on any given cruise that miss their ship. Probably higher than you think. 

[UKstages]

34 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Never, ever have seen that warning.

 

sadly, this is a real thing. people lick batteries, most likely motivated by a series of popular youtube "instructional" videos.

 

36 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Now, some of us are being chastised because neither NCL nor any of us, can control the weather?

 

i think we're all in agreement that NCL can't control the weather. that's a straw man argument. nobody is insisting that NCL is responsible for the weather nor is anyone saying that NCL is responsible for flight delays.

 

there is a legitimate debate taking place here as to what the appropriate response should be when 60 or more travelers are en route from the airport or actually at the dock, waiting to board. should the ship have waited? or was the correct move to depart without those passengers? which strategy would have caused the most inconvenience and expense for the passengers onboard and those en route, as well as NCL?

[graphicguy]

31 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

sadly, this is a real thing. people lick batteries, most likely motivated by a series of popular youtube "instructional" videos.

Never seen or heard about people licking car batteries.  But, if they are, they certainly deserve the outcome.  It would certainly taste terrible.  And, I can't imagine anyone with a tongue big enough to lick the positive and negative terminals at the same time.  But, if such a person exists, and they did indeed lick a car battery while doing so...well....I believe that would be considered a clear cut case of "natural selection".

 

 

31 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

i think we're all in agreement that NCL can't control the weather. that's a straw man argument. nobody is insisting that NCL is responsible for the weather nor is anyone saying that NCL is responsible for flight delays.

 

I don't know what a "straw man argument" is!

 

31 minutes ago, UKstages said:

there is a legitimate debate taking place here as to what the appropriate response should be when 60 or more travelers are en route from the airport or actually at the dock, waiting to board. should the ship have waited? or was the correct move to depart without those passengers? which strategy would have caused the most inconvenience and expense for the passengers onboard and those en route, as well as NCL?

 

I know if I were on board and it was announced the ship would be delayed for some unknown amount of time because some people did not make their flights because of weather (or any reason), I would be upset at the prospect of a delay where no one knew if or when the flights would arrive.  The ship should absolutely sail as scheduled.

 

As reported (on a social media site, which we know is wholly reliable...sarcasm noted), some were late to the pier while others had no idea when they would arrive due to their flights being delayed because of weather.

 

The issue with passengers allegedly being left at the pier because they could not make the 4:00 p.m. all aboard, I don't know what is true and what's not.  I do know it's widely understood if you aren't on board by the "all aboard time" unless you're a pier runner and a minute away, you  are left.

 

News reports have NCL making arrangements for those who were late to join the cruise in Belize or Honduras.  So they do have options.

 

Lessons learned....

 

A) have trip insurance.  

B) come in a day or two before your cruise.

C) you can book cheap flights through NCL...or, you can book your own flights that you have more control directly with the airlines.  I ALWAYS choose the latter for the very reasons outlined in this thread.

 

Everybody always wants exceptions made for them, regardless of reason.  But, there are thousands of other guests on board who have been able to make it on time.  60 vs 3,000?  3,000 win.

 

Just so I am not accused of "you'd feel different if it happened to you".  It did happen to me.  It was on a Carnival Cruise.  Flights were delayed.  I had even booked my own flight.  I broke my own cardinal rule and took a chance of sailing during hurricane season (cheap fares, don't ya' know).  Sailing in the "day of" without having another back up plan (mine was the only flight that would get me to the pier on time).

 

Ship went off without a hitch.  Because of the flight delay (it wasn't even a weather delay...it was Delta airlines not having a flight crew available), I got to the pier about 20 minutes after "all aboard", with about a dozen of my other sad friends after being informed the gangway was already secured and we could not board the ship.

 

Fortunately, I had insurance.  But, that's a whole other fiasco given the laws and procedures you have to go through to board a ship at a different embarkation port.

 

Did they do the right thing?  Absolutely.  It was a cruise lesson...one that was a huge hassle, but a lesson learned nonetheless.

Edited March 25 by graphicguy

[9tee2Sea]

I had something very similar happen to me many decades ago.  We had a cruise departing Barcelona.  Spent 5 days in France first, then booked a very early morning flight to Barcelona the day of debarkation.  While we were in the airport in Paris to get on the plane, we had heard on the news that the Barcelona airport was flooded due to a storm, and it shorted out the control tower, and the airport would be closed for 3 days.  Well, after digesting the shock, we went to the ticket counter before everyone else got there and asked what we could do. We called the port in Barcelona and they told us to meet them at the next port ( Cartegena). We figured, dont stay in France, at least get to Madrid.  We somehow got our tickets changed to Madrid  ( spent the night at in the airport).  Called the Cartegena port, and they told us due to the delay of leaving Barcelona, they were not stopping in Cartagena.  We were told to meet in Malaga.  Again, after digesting the shock of worthless tickets, we went back to the customer service of the airline we were booked on.  After much discussion ( and tears on my face), they got us on flight to Malaga that was in the boarding process.  We ran to the gate, got on the plane and sat down.  Once I saw the view of Malaga as approaching, I said " I dont care if we miss the ship, Im going to spend the rest of the time in Malaga".  We spent the night in Malaga, and were waiting for the ship at the port the next morning.  We had other friends on that ship, so many people applauded us as they saw us standing there with our luggage.  To make a long story short ( I know, it's a bit late for that), our 7 day cruise turned out to be a long weekend adventure.  But that taught me about rolling with the punches, try to make the best out of what is going on, and always think of alternate choices.  There is more to this story on what happened while we were gone on this cruise, but this is the story of my " Out Of Towners" experience.  

[UKstages]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

I know if I were on board and it was announced the ship would be delayed for some unknown amount of time because some people did not make their flights because of weather (or any reason), I would be upset at the prospect of a delay where no one knew if or when the flights would arrive.

 

i was on a ship recently where this very thing happened. i forget whether it was the getaway or the joy. the captain held the ship for about an hour and.a half.

 

i don't think anybody would support a delay of unknown duration "where no one knew if or when the flights would arrive." in this case, again, they reportedly had 60 or more people in the terminal. i think they knew those passengers could most likely be processed and boarded within an hour or so. if either of those things is not true, then, no, of course the ship should not have been held.

 

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

I don't know what a "straw man argument" is!

 

a straw man argument is when somebody presents something that nobody could possibly find fault with (in defense of their strongly held position), but which actually has nothing to do with the issue being debated. it is so thinly constructed and has so little to do with the issue, that it is said to be made of straw; in other words, it can easily be shot down and dismantled, because it has no substance, much like a man made of straw.

 

saying that one is being chastised because NCL can't control the weather or flight delays is a classic straw man argument because nobody is seriously arguing either of those points.  what they're saying is true... NCL can't control the weather or flight delays... so it seems as if whoever says that is providing important factual data.. it seems like they are advancing their argument... but they're not. because the points they make are not disputed and have nothing to do with the actual issue being discussed.  

[graphicguy]

7 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

i was on a ship recently where this very thing happened. i forget whether it was the getaway or the joy. the captain held the ship for about an hour and.a half.

 

i don't think anybody would support a delay of unknown duration "where no one knew if or when the flights would arrive." in this case, again, they reportedly had 60 or more people in the terminal. i think they knew those passengers could most likely be processed and boarded within an hour or so. if either of those things is not true, then, no, of course the ship should not have been held.

 

 

a straw man argument is when somebody presents something that nobody could possibly find fault with (in defense of their strongly held position), but which actually has nothing to do with the issue being debated. it is so thinly constructed and has so little to do with the issue, that it is said to be made of straw; in other words, it can easily be shot down and dismantled, because it has no substance, much like a man made of straw.

 

saying that one is being chastised because NCL can't control the weather or flight delays is a classic straw man argument because nobody is seriously arguing either of those points.  what they're saying is true... NCL can't control the weather or flight delays... so it seems as if whoever says that is providing important factual data.. it seems like they are advancing their argument... but they're not. because the points they make are not disputed and have nothing to do with the actual issue being discussed.  

OK...I'll argue for argument's sake.

 

Where is the evidence that 60 people were left in the terminal?  I'm not blaming them for being late.  Just, when is it OK to delay a sailing?  6 people?  60 people?  

 

As these threads go, we're very lite on facts and very heavy on speculation.

 

Still don't quite get the straw man explanation, but that's OK.  If I'm a straw man, looks like I need to take a trip to Oz!

[Actuality251]

3 hours ago, floridafish said:

I'd like to know the average number of passengers on any given cruise that miss their ship. Probably higher than you think. 

“Sailors missing the ship is an extremely rare occurrence at Virgin Voyages, with only a handful of instances ever recorded,” Alex Zeitz, Senior Director of International Operations, Experience, Inclusions, and Events for Virgin Voyages, tells Matador Network. ”

https://matadornetwork.com/read/left-behind-by-a-cruise/

[Capitan Obvious]

33 minutes ago, Actuality251 said:

“Sailors missing the ship is an extremely rare occurrence at Virgin Voyages, with only a handful of instances ever recorded,” Alex Zeitz, Senior Director of International Operations, Experience, Inclusions, and Events for Virgin Voyages, tells Matador Network. ”

https://matadornetwork.com/read/left-behind-by-a-cruise/

 

Not entirely relevant as the linked article discusses missing the ship at a port while already on the cruise, and this thread is discussing never making the ship at the cruises' point of origin.

[MohrPfun]

Wow.  What an eye opener this thread has been.  I’m a FlyerTalk regular (aviation/airline board) and I thought the personalities over there were strong…Child’s Play compared to you Cruisers!

 

Happy Cruising (if you can make the boat!) to all! 😉 

[IAcruising]

10 hours ago, floridafish said:

I'd like to know the average number of passengers on any given cruise that miss their ship. Probably higher than you think. 

 

I was just thinking about this concerning our upcoming 21-day. I just assumed that nearly everyone comes in a day prior, but I'm coming to understand that this is not necessarily the case (even cruisers coming in internationally!). I can't wrap my head around spending that kind of money, then not being able to meet the ship until 3-days later, in Colombia, usually at their own additional expense!

 

Boggles my mind.

 

 

[UKstages]

4 hours ago, MohrPfun said:

I’m a FlyerTalk regular

 

i'm on flyertalk as well, and i'd have to agree with your assessment!

[hallux]

@IAcruising on my Panama Canal transit in Jan/Feb there were, I think, 9 people that missed the ship in Miami and 6 were for sure confirmed to be joining in Colombia.  I know because I knew one of them!

 

He booked his own flights, I don't know what the financials were.

[Jim and Monika]

We always book our flights the day before which leaves us the option to drive if we need to.

[Panhandle Couple]

On 3/24/2024 at 11:12 PM, UKstages said:

 

oh, geez. that's a whole lot of conjecture and "what ifs."

 

here's a few more...

 

what if the porters are indeed unionized? you're right! they probably do have their set rules and work days. and they probably have a contract that protects them when they are required to work overtime.

 

i say required because none of these jobs are 9 - 5 jobs. that's not what they signed up for. they know they are in a business in which the workday is not done until they're told it's done... typically when the ship they're working on pulls away. 

 

what if that ship was seven hours late getting into miami... would you still feel it was unfair to ask the porters to stay to unload the baggage and load it for the new guests who will be leaving at least seven hours late? you've apparently only thought through one side of the equation. the same operating principles that ensure port workers are there for you when you arrive late ensure that port workers are there when flights get delayed.

 

don't you worry about the porters in either case.  they'll be making an extraordinary amount of overtime. and i never met a union guy or gal who didn't love overtime.

 

ditto the harbor pilot, the check-in agents, the "luggage screeners" and the "cruise port staff." they know what this work entails and they know that they didn't sign up for a 9 - 5 gig. it's in their employment agreement that they may have to work as assigned and may be "held over" in times of need.

 

there may be a lot of valid reasons to justify the captain leaving on time and not waiting for those impacted by air delays. saying that the port workers turn into pumpkins if they don't get home by a certain hour isn't one of them. 

 

 

you'd think we wouldn't have to do that.

 

little known fact: baskin robbins least popular flavor ever was something called "battery acid and cream." 

 

I forgot...

you are an expert on labor contracts you have never seen.

 

[Rick&Jeannie]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:54 PM, graphicguy said:

You want to control how, where, when you fly to/from the port?  Book it yourself!

100% agree!  This is the ONLY way that I book.

 

On 3/24/2024 at 12:54 PM, graphicguy said:

Cruise lines won’t/can’t delay departures….same as airlines.  Have you not seen “pier runners”? There are port rules and requirements, downstream sailing requirements, etc

Hmmm...not *always* true.

 

We missed a TA cruise out of FLL just after the restart because the South had a crazy cold snap on sailing day.  Our short 7:00am puddle jumper flight into ATL was delayed because of trouble with the de-icing equipment.  We got to Atlanta well past our original connecting flight left...hoping to get on another flight.  Well, the next flight would not have gotten us to FLL by the 4:00pm sail time...or so we thought.  Apparently there was a very large number of people (over 200 *I think*, IDK for sure) that were caught up in the same mess.  Unbeknownst to us...the ship did not sail until 8:00pm!  We found out AFTER we got back home.  We *could* have made it!

 

And for those who are advocates of just trying to get to the next port...the next port in this case was the Azores...and the ship bypassed it due to stormy weather!  I'm really glad we didn't try to go that route.

 

And yes...this was the LAST TIME we ever decided to fly on day of sailing!!!

[MoCruiseFan]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:44 PM, UKstages said:

 

i was on a ship recently where this very thing happened. i forget whether it was the getaway or the joy. the captain held the ship for about an hour and.a half.

 

i don't think anybody would support a delay of unknown duration "where no one knew if or when the flights would arrive." in this case, again, they reportedly had 60 or more people in the terminal. i think they knew those passengers could most likely be processed and boarded within an hour or so. if either of those things is not true, then, no, of course the ship should not have been held.

 

 

a straw man argument is when somebody presents something that nobody could possibly find fault with (in defense of their strongly held position), but which actually has nothing to do with the issue being debated. it is so thinly constructed and has so little to do with the issue, that it is said to be made of straw; in other words, it can easily be shot down and dismantled, because it has no substance, much like a man made of straw.

 

saying that one is being chastised because NCL can't control the weather or flight delays is a classic straw man argument because nobody is seriously arguing either of those points.  what they're saying is true... NCL can't control the weather or flight delays... so it seems as if whoever says that is providing important factual data.. it seems like they are advancing their argument... but they're not. because the points they make are not disputed and have nothing to do with the actual issue being discussed.  

 

You might enjoy the book "Introduction to Logic" by Irving Copi.  It was the required text when I took a class entitled Critical Thinking many years ago in college...

[MoCruiseFan]

While on the topic of straw man and formal logic in general, soem may find this interesting...

https://www.logical-fallacy.com/articles/list-of-formal-fallacies/

[Rick&Jeannie]

24 minutes ago, MoCruiseFan said:

While on the topic of straw man and formal logic in general, soem may find this interesting...

https://www.logical-fallacy.com/articles/list-of-formal-fallacies/

Personally, I tend to follow the teachings of Mr. Spock when it comes to logical thinking.  I don't want to go and read material that might change my mind or way of thinking.  I come here to Cruise Critic to see all the on-line arguments develop! 😄

 

 

Edited March 26 by Rick&Jeannie

[Panhandle Couple]

6 hours ago, Rick&Jeannie said:

Personally, I tend to follow the teachings of Mr. Spock when it comes to logical thinking.  I don't want to go and read material that might change my mind or way of thinking.  I come here to Cruise Critic to see all the on-line arguments develop! 😄

 

 

"In an insane world, the sane person must appear insane"

Edited March 27 by Panhandle Couple

[IAcruising]

My favorite Spock quote:

"I would not remind you of that which you know so well"

 

Get in a day early.

 

[European_CruiseGirl]

Getting back to my topic which I started almost a week ago. The number of passengers that missed the ship was much higher than the 60+ that I reported earlier. 120+ passenger got onboard at Belize and an unspecified number of people got onboard at Roatan (Roatan was not arranged by NCL rather people arranged their flights to Roatan without NCL as they didn’t want to wait one extra day to get onboard). Therefore it’s somewhat safe to assume that over 150 NCL passengers missed the Joy in Miami on 3/23/24.

 

I will do a brief review of the whole cruise when I am back home. The internet is not the best we have experienced on NCL.