Listing Crown Princess-Could it Happen on HAL?

[sirarthur]

My HW and I depart today for a cruise from Vancouver on July 23 and we hear the new of the terrible listing of the Crown Princess... critically injuring two people (a baby) and injuring 95 passangers. One report stated the captian came over the intercom an sounded terrified. Apparently it was a ship malfunction and not caused by a rouge wave. Could it happen on a HAL ship? Would HAL captian's respond more calmly? Apparently the passangers were calm and acted appropriately. Apparently the 2000+ passengers will be given a voucher for a free cruise... What are your thoughts?:confused:

[Krazy Kruizers]

Malfuntions can hapeen on any ship, anytime, anywhere.

 

I believe that this is a new ship andif that is the case, you can be certain that there will be a lot of questions asked and probing done to find out exactly why this happened and if it could possibly happen again.

[gizmo]

I agree with KK. Stuff happens, anytime, anyplace.

 

No one knows how the captain responded to this. Just because his voice was shakey, (according to pax) , doesn't take away from his creditbility. He did get the ship to Cape Canaveral.

[grannynurse]

Actually something vaguely similar did happen on HAL. Leaving Stavanger Norway in June 2004, we were sitting on the outside Lido deck port side and the ship took quite a dip to the port side and water came splashing out of the Lido pool, we heard dishes crashing in the service room behind the bar. We were between the pool and the door to the midship elevators, right across from the bar. She righted herself immediately. All through dinner we heard grinding noises and cycles of engine thrustings. They announced stabilizer problems that went on for several days with a repair to be done in Hamburg which was scheduled to be an extended stay anyway. Some of the conspiracy theorists on board speculated that the stabilizer had caught on a discarded fishing net, as ships in the area were notorious for "double-netting" to escape fines.

Except for breakage and some wet floors there was thankfully no harm done, but it was IMO, quite a sharp list. The crew and the officers, or so we heard had dubbed this 35 day trip as the "Cruise from H***" due to a big bunch of minor mechanical difficulties all through the cruise.

 

AND, 2 months later she went dead in the water and was hit by a huge rogue wave off the coast of Greenland, if you remember the pictures of the up-turned pianos and the pax getting off in Halifax where I believe 10 went to the hospital.

This is a quote from a previous post on this board:

 

 

Roughed up on high seas

Passengers bruised, battered as cruise ship sails into hurricane

 

By BILL POWER / Staff Reporter

 

Ambulances greeted a luxury cruise ship in Halifax on Tuesday after passengers and crew endured a harrowing encounter with monster waves generated by hurricane Karl in the North Atlantic.

 

About a dozen passengers were taken to the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre with suspected fractures and severe bruising after MS Rotterdam arrived at Pier 21 early in the day.

 

One passenger suffered a broken collarbone.

 

"It was the ultimate water ride," said passenger Sara Songy, as she and husband Mel, from Pennsylvania, recounted the Friday evening run-in with massive waves and wind in a powerless ship.

 

"We assume it's because we lost power that we could not get out of the path of the oncoming hurricane," Mr. Songy said.

 

The cruise ship was returning to New York from Greece, via London, when it hit rough water about 900 kilometres east of St. John's, Nfld., which was a scheduled stopover.

 

The ship was diverted to Halifax.

 

Various passengers described the increasing severity of the storm and brutal wave action, and the ship's eventual loss of power and control.

 

"The entire ship was just bouncing around out there. It was unforgettable," said passenger Augie D'Alessio of Florida, who was wheeling his injured wife Rita back to the ship in a wheelchair.

 

"We will remember this for the rest of our lives."

 

Mrs. D'Alessio, tossed from her bed in the storm, was hospitalized in Halifax with severe bruising.

 

She and some other injured passengers returned to the ship to complete the trip to New York.

 

"It was total darkness," Mrs. D'Alessio said. "It was terrifying."

 

Her bruise-covered face was evidence of the severity of the storm the ship encountered.

 

For about 3 1/2 hours, the 233-metre ship - which can carry about 1,300 passengers and 590 crew members - was tossed about unmercifully in the darkness.

 

Three baby grand pianos, several pieces of furniture and hundreds of glasses and bottles were flung about in the storm-tossed ship before power was restored.

 

Many passengers were instructed to stay on the floor of several public lounges on the ship.

 

Others were told to stay in their cabins.

 

"Windows on the port side were right under the water," said passenger Ed Dunlap, who lives in Pennsylvania.

 

Mr. Dunlap said there was a general lack of preparedness on the ship as rough waters were approached.

 

"You see a big grand piano go sliding by . . . you wonder why it was not strapped down."

 

He said it was frightening when a large lounge at the back of the vessel was evacuated out of fear that water would smash through its massive display windows.

 

Passenger Florin Vlasache and wife Camelia, from San Francisco, said "it was a pretty sad mess," but they and other passengers indicated they were comfortable getting back on board the ship to complete their trip.

 

The vessel is owned by Holland America Line.

 

Engineers with Holland America inspected the ship at Pier 21 in Halifax and cleared it to depart for New York.

 

Eric Elvejord, communications director for the cruise line, said from Seattle that a complete review of the loss of engine power and the encounter with the hurricane would be conducted.

 

He said the cruise line is awaiting crew and inspector reports.

 

"The ship went south to miss the hurricane. Being there (in the storm waters) was not out of the ordinary," he said.

 

"We know there were some injuries and damaged furniture but no damage to the structure of the ship," he said.

 

"The problem was the loss of propulsion, which we are investigating."

 

Peter Bowyer, at the Canadian Hurricane Centre in Dartmouth, said ocean conditions were turbulent Friday when the ship was headed toward Newfoundland.

 

"I'm wondering what that ship was even doing in that area in the first place," he said.

 

Hurricane Karl passed about 970 kilometres east of St. John's on Friday afternoon, generating waves "most definitely in the monster category," the hurricane expert said.

 

Wave heights in the region at that time were averaging about 20 metres.

 

"Remember, this is an average," Mr. Bowyer said. "Many of the waves would have been much, much bigger than that."

 

He noted that Karl was the seventh major hurricane this season and was being closely monitored by both the Canadian Hurricane Centre and the National Hurricane Centre in Miami.

 

The hurricane was rated a Category 1 storm by the time it arrived in the North Atlantic, but wave action is more of a hazard than wind in this region, Mr. Bowyer explained.

 

"There would have been a lot of pitching and rolling and twisting of the ship." Mr. Bowyer said modern navigational technology and hurricane tracking systems are designed to prevent exactly the sort of ocean trauma the Rotterdam experienced. "This situation could have been much worse," he said.

 

 

Yup "Ship" happens. It's very fortunate that the Crown Princess was close to land.

GN

[Krazy Kruizers]

grannynurse

 

You didn't mention which ship but as I recall reading the reports and looking at the pictures, wasn't it the Rotterdam???

[Bramcruiser]

Could it happen? Yes? It could happen practically on any ship.

 

Will it happen? Not likely. The Crown Princess episode was a fluke and the chances of a repeat are small.

 

Can you blame the captain for being shaken by a freak issue that was a semi-Poseidon Adventure? Not as long as he made the announcements and did his duty to get the ship back to land and to get the right people in the right places as soon as possible.

 

Should we worry on our next cruises? NO!

[Krazy Kruizers]

And the year before didn't the Rotterdam hit some big waves crossing the Atlantic??

 

I also remember seeing the waves as they kept getting higher and higher as someone from the bridge was taking pictures.

[Namvet4]

. . . Apparently it was a ship malfunction and not caused by a rouge wave. Could it happen on a HAL ship? Would HAL captian's respond more calmly? . . . What are your thoughts?:confused:

I believe, Sirarthur, that anything is possible. What I hope is that the captain and crew, not only of this ship, but all ships, learn from the experience. Cruising is growing in popularity, generating additional revenue for the cruise lines. I hope that a portion of that revenue is directed to improvements in safety, engineering and testing. Most reports I have read, official and unofficial; indicate that the captain and crew responded to the immediate needs of the ship and her passengers in a fitting manner. I am sure that there is room for criticism… but that is hindsight.

Enjoy your voyage and rest easy knowing that you are sailing with an experienced and professional captain and crew on a prestigious line.

[grannynurse]

KK,

Yes it was the Rotterdam. If you remember, RuthC was on board during the 2003 storm and posted about it. I couldn't find the piano pictures, I think I saved the to my hard drive. They may be on this board somewhere, I searched under "Rotterdm and storm" but haven't seen them yet.

 

Here's the link:

http://www.funtigo.com/zackiedawg?b=191115&c=177495&p=3.0&n=3&af=y&nav=next&cr=1&rfm=y

GN

[kryos]

Malfuntions can hapeen on any ship, anytime, anywhere.

 

I believe that this is a new ship andif that is the case, you can be certain that there will be a lot of questions asked and probing done to find out exactly why this happened and if it could possibly happen again.

Maybe they should have done more "shake down" cruises with it then? At least on a "shake down" cruise, you can take more "chances;" i.e., explore the full capabilities of the engines ... try different maneuvers, etc. The people onboard would generally be Princess employees only ... or perhaps some travel agents. Not saying that you risk anyone's life ... but since a shake-down cruise is non-revenue generating everyone onboard knows the score ... and knows that they have to help the cruise line to test all the systems on the boat. An incident such as this would have been more "acceptable" on a shake-down cruise, but totally intolerable on a cruise where passengers paid good money to be there and had a right to expect all systems to be functioning properly.

 

It would seem to me that Princess has a lot of problems. That would seem to indicate that there is something very, very wrong deep within their organization. This is the second "listing" type incident, I believe ... and then there was the fire. All of these things could have been prevented and/or the damage minimized to a much greater extent. That fact alone tells me that there are some deep rooted organizational problems there.

 

I know I won't be taking any Princess cruises for quite a while. I simply don't have confidence at this point in their safety record.

 

Alternatively, HAL has had very few "incidents" ... at least in recent history. I think their officers and crew are probably more experienced since many have been around for a while. For these reasons, I feel comfortable boarding a HAL ship. That's not to say that HAL ships are immune to tragedies such as this, but I do feel that their history bears out that they have a safety record worthy of putting me at ease ... and that's why I'll sail HAL, but not Princess right now.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[bobpatj]

We, too, were aboard Rotterdam when it listed. I was reminded of that yesterday when I heard about the Crown. Fortunately, our experience was not as serious, but quite unsettling! Your memory of where we were at the time was much better than mine, Grannynurse.

[peaches from georgia]

Something like this can happen anytime, anywhere, new ship, old ship, good seas, rogue seas. In just the short few years I have been on CC I remember the Rotterdam incidents and I know there was another listing problem on the Ryndam, I think it was, but don't hold me to which ship. I remember the tales of what happened in the dining room that night out of the blue. I believe it was the stabilizers that caused it?

 

It's not just a Princess problem and certainly can be a HAL or Regent or Crystal or X incident at any time. Did the Rotterdam and Ryndam? listing problems mean there should be total loss of trust in HAL anymore or less than in Princess? Not to me.

[hammybee]

It seems to me that speculating on something like this happening again is like speculating on whether a flight will have tubulance or a mechanical problem and if so, how bad and for how long.

 

It's unfortunate when stuff happens but in this case it appears that less than 1% of the passengers were injured and the injured child is going to be OK. If you read the postings, some people actually dressed for formal night and the evening entertainment went on, as scheduled. Princess seems to be doing everything possible to get people home. Yesterday's power outage at Laguardia makes this even more of a challenge as airlines scramble to make up for the lost day.

 

I am not going to speculate or indulge in a perception that HAL is safer because none of us know if any HAL Captain would have reacted any differently, under the same set of circumstances. For all we know, the Crown Captain and crew may done things to prevent this from becoming a far worse situation.

 

While I prefer HAL, I would not hesitate to cruise with Princess if it offered an intinerary/ price point that I wanted. Grannynurse said "ship happens" and said it all.

[bepsf]

Ever notice that most of the technology-failure type incidents are happenning to the Mega-ships?

It's one thing to get hit by a wave or be in the wrong place in the wrong time (Rotterdam/Norwegian Dawn) - but it's quite another for rudder/stabilizer malfunctions to cause ships to roll suddenly (Grand & Crown Princess, Rhapsody o/t Seas)

IMHO - Ships are being built too top-heavy: drafts are much too shallow to balance the new massive superstructures. Just saw the documentary on one of the Discovery Channels last week that Freedom o/t Seas is built w/ aluminum upper decks to counteract the weight of all the water in the pools and water features to keep her center of gravity on Deck 4! I think that's simply too high - one wonders what the center of gravity becomes at the end of a cruise on an afternoon when the fuel tanks and food storage below public decks are closer to empty and most pax on the upper decks, staterooms filled w/ luggage and new souveneirs - closer to Deck 5?

Some will say "Well, we have stabilizers and pumps that automatically shift ballast when the ship encounters rough seas or needs to make an emergency maneuver to keep her upright" Well, that's fine when everything is working perfectly, but it's when these kinds of things malfunction that it becomes the issue - a ship still needs to be able to handle safely without these systems.

As Rita says, time was when during sea trials (pre-delivery) ships would go through maneuvers to see not only how fast the ship can go and how long it takes to stop, but severe turns to port and starboard to see where the limits of the ship are in emergency situations. Nothing of this kind is described on anything I've seen lately (Freedom/QM2)- Maybe Doug or Capt. Card can tell us if this is still done?

[Maryandi]

Back about 3-4 years ago, this severe listing problem happened to the Ryndam while she was off the coast of South America. It was reported here but people did not believe the OP not even after people that were on the ship posted.

 

After that happened, I went on the Volendam and mentioned to a ship's officer about the fact that I was hesitant about going on the outside decks because of what happened and the officer said a friend was on the ship and the occurance did happen.

 

M.A.

[Copper10-8]

It seems to me that speculating on something like this happening again is like speculating on whether a flight will have tubulance or a mechanical problem and if so, how bad and for how long.

 

It's unfortunate when stuff happens but in this case it appears that less than 1% of the passengers were injured and the injured child is going to be OK. If you read the postings, some people actually dressed for formal night and the evening entertainment went on, as scheduled. Princess seems to be doing everything possible to get people home. Yesterday's power outage at Laguardia makes this even more of a challenge as airlines scramble to make up for the lost day.

 

I am not going to speculate or indulge in a perception that HAL is safer because none of us know if any HAL Captain would have reacted any differently, under the same set of circumstances. For all we know, the Crown Captain and crew may done things to prevent this from becoming a far worse situation.

 

While I prefer HAL, I would not hesitate to cruise with Princess if it offered an intinerary/ price point that I wanted. Grannynurse said "ship happens" and said it all.

 

I'm with you! NTSB and the Coast Guard will both be conducting a full investigation, the results of which will be made public

[gizmo]

As Rita says, time was when during sea trials (pre-delivery) ships would go through maneuvers to see not only how fast the ship can go and how long it takes to stop, but severe turns to port and starboard to see where the limits of the ship are in emergency situations. Nothing of this kind is described on anything I've seen lately (Freedom/QM2)- Maybe Doug or Capt. Card can tell us if this is still done?

 

Do you or Kyros know what actually takes place during sea trials? Do you actually believe the TV shows would cover EVERYTHING that is tested ?

[newmexicoNita]

Could this happen on HAL? sure, could we get into an accident on our way to or from Moose Lodge tonight? Sure. Things can and do happen. All we can do is hope for the best and not worry about what might be tomorrow. NMNita

[Grumpy1]

The local 6 TV website reported that the roll had been determined to be 38 degrees. The point of no return for that ship is supposedly 43 degrees. That's waaaay to close for me.

[lougee1043]

sea trials (shakedown cruise) are done over a period of days with only the ships personell and people from the shipbuilder as well as any other people involved with the certification of the ship --- the ship is put through many maneuvers that you would normally never experience on a cruise-- only after satisfactory sea trials does the cruiseline actually take posession of the ship

[cruiserking]

Originally Posted by bepsf

 

As Rita says, time was when during sea trials (pre-delivery) ships would go through maneuvers to see not only how fast the ship can go and how long it takes to stop, but severe turns to port and starboard to see where the limits of the ship are in emergency situations. Nothing of this kind is described on anything I've seen lately (Freedom/QM2)- Maybe Doug or Capt. Card can tell us if this is still done?

 

The QM2 went through a series of sea trials just outside of the Chantiers D'atlantique Shipping Yard in St. Nazair, France. The documentary Queen Mary 2 Birth of a Legend, which frequently appears on theTravel Channel, details several of the rigorous sea trials that QM2 went through before Cunard accepted delivery of her.

 

Cruiserking

[bookworm0911]

sea trials (shakedown cruise) are done over a period of days with only the ships personell and people from the shipbuilder as well as any other people involved with the certification of the ship --- the ship is put through many maneuvers that you would normally never experience on a cruise-- only after satisfactory sea trials does the cruiseline actually take posession of the ship

Thank you, lougee. I was getting the impression reading a couple of posts here that the cruiselines, which pour millions of $ into these ships, were too stupid to know to even test if the ship can turn its rudders without reading these boards and getting advice from amateurs. ROTFLMAO. :D

[dougnewmanatsea]

Maybe they should have done more "shake down" cruises with it then? At least on a "shake down" cruise, you can take more "chances;" i.e., explore the full capabilities of the engines ... try different maneuvers, etc.

All these things are done on sea trials. The cruise line will not take delivery of the ship unless all these tests have been passed!

 

An incident such as this would have been more "acceptable" on a shake-down cruise, but totally intolerable on a cruise where passengers paid good money to be there and had a right to expect all systems to be functioning properly.

It is not acceptable on a shakedown cruise, a sea trial, or anything else! However, mechanical malfunctions will happen.

 

Of course, the passengers had a right to expect all systems to be functioning properly - but sometimes, things break. It is impossible to guarantee that everything will be perfect 100% of the time. Things happen!

 

It would seem to me that Princess has a lot of problems. That would seem to indicate that there is something very, very wrong deep within their organization. This is the second "listing" type incident, I believe ... and then there was the fire. All of these things could have been prevented and/or the damage minimized to a much greater extent.

I'm sorry, but what qualifies you to say with such certainty that "these things could have been prevented and/or the damaged minimized to a much greater extent"?

 

Would you mind explaining just what could have been done to prevent these things or "minimize the damage"?

 

Assuming you are an expert in ship safety, what exactly would you have done differently?

 

As a layman I am not ready to make sweeping declarations that things were or were not done right, but I can't see any evidence that any of the incidents you mention could have been prevented or that the outcomes would have been improved if anything was done differently on the part of the cruise line.

 

But I am not willing to draw any conclusions until the official investigations have been completed and I've read the reports for myself.

 

I know I won't be taking any Princess cruises for quite a while. I simply don't have confidence at this point in their safety record.

In that case I suppose you ought to call up your travel agent right now and cancel that QE2 booking you have for next April... Since Cunard is part of Princess!

 

Alternatively, HAL has had very few "incidents" ... at least in recent history. I think their officers and crew are probably more experienced since many have been around for a while.

Now we are really moving into the realm of fantasy!

 

HAL's crews are more experienced? What on earth gives you that idea?

 

Yes, HAL crews are experienced. So are Princess crews!

 

Do you really think that the senior officers of Princess ships have not "been around for a while" too? Presumably you are under the impression that they appoint people Captain or Chief Engineer right out of school? I guess you personally know a lot of Princess officers and you've seen that they're not qualified or experienced?

 

Ever notice that most of the technology-failure type incidents are happenning to the Mega-ships?

Well, seeing as there are more of them out there, I guess there will be more failures in them!

 

IMHO - Ships are being built too top-heavy: drafts are much too shallow to balance the new massive superstructures.

I guess you are a Naval Architect or some other sort of expert who is qualified to make these judgements?

 

For what it's worth, today's ships are required to comply with stability standards that are much more stringent than any in the past. If you have ever noticed why some older ships have had their hulls modified with sponsons or other ugly additions - this is is because they didn't meet the stability standards that all new ships meet.

 

I think that's simply too high - one wonders what the center of gravity becomes at the end of a cruise on an afternoon when the fuel tanks and food storage below public decks are closer to empty and most pax on the upper decks, staterooms filled w/ luggage and new souveneirs - closer to Deck 5?

Do you really think ship designers are so dumb that they don't take into account things like fuel into their calculations!

 

Anyway, do you know where the center of gravity is on other ships?

 

Some will say "Well, we have stabilizers and pumps that automatically shift ballast when the ship encounters rough seas or needs to make an emergency maneuver to keep her upright"

Stabilizers exist purely for the comfort of passengers. They have nothing to do with the safety of the ship.

 

a ship still needs to be able to handle safely without these systems.

And, they are designed to!

 

As Rita says, time was when during sea trials (pre-delivery) ships would go through maneuvers to see not only how fast the ship can go and how long it takes to stop, but severe turns to port and starboard to see where the limits of the ship are in emergency situations. Nothing of this kind is described on anything I've seen lately (Freedom/QM2)

Just because it was not described on a TV show you happened to see absolutely doesn't mean that it didn't happen! It is not possible to show every step of a ship's design, construction and testing - a process that takes years - in a matter of an hour or two on the Discovery Channel.

 

All of these tests, and more, are conducted on every new ship. The cruise line will not accept delivery of the ship until all of these tests have been performed and the ship has passed! It is their way of ensuring that they've gotten their money's worth.

 

Today's ships go through more rigorous testing - real-life testing, tank testing, computer modelling and every other kind of test you can think of - than ships in the past ever did. QM2 was the single most-tested hull design in history. Some of these tests didn't even exist a few years ago!

 

Quite frankly, the idea that new ships are somehow less safe is pure nonsense. And this is borne out by the numbers, I might add!

 

The local 6 TV website reported that the roll had been determined to be 38 degrees. The point of no return for that ship is supposedly 43 degrees.

The web site said that "they were told" those things. What I want to know is, who told them? How was this determined by whoever it was that told them this? What qualifies that person to make such judgements?

 

All this is mere hearsay at this point. I put very little stock in news reports like this! As an example, yesterday the various TV networks here in the US could not even decide whether the ORIENT QUEEN was a Greek cruise ship, a German cruise ship, or a Norwegian ferry! (For the record, she's a Lebanese cruise ship, something which you could find out in 30 seconds using Google and which was apparently lost on every single major news network. Oops!)

[serendipity1499]

It seems to me that speculating on something like this happening again is like speculating on whether a flight will have turbulence or a mechanical problem and if so, how bad and for how long.

 

It's unfortunate when stuff happens but in this case it appears that less than 1% of the passengers were injured and the injured child is going to be OK. If you read the postings, some people actually dressed for formal night and the evening entertainment went on, as scheduled. Princess seems to be doing everything possible to get people home. Yesterday's power outage at Laguardia makes this even more of a challenge as airlines scramble to make up for the lost day.

 

I am not going to speculate or indulge in a perception that HAL is safer because none of us know if any HAL Captain would have reacted any differently, under the same set of circumstances. For all we know, the Crown Captain and crew may done things to prevent this from becoming a far worse situation.

 

While I prefer HAL, I would not hesitate to cruise with Princess if it offered an intinerary/ price point that I wanted. Grannynurse said "ship happens" and said it all.

 

hammybee...Mostly agree with you, that this could happen on any line, but I would prefer not cruising on the Mega-ships..Tend to agree with bepsf when he says that most of these technology-failures are happening on the mega-ships because their center of gravity is so much higher than the smaller ships.....I too would like Capt. Card's opinion on this..

 

You also state that less than !% of the passengers were injured..I believe you mean less than 3% were injured..(less than 1% is 30 passengers).. Approx 85 passengers were injured...According to the Associated Press 94 passengers & crew were taken to area hospitals..

 

In another post you talk about a 180 degree list which is impossible...180 degrees is a complete roll over...A 45 degree list is very dangerous & would make the ship go under...Believe that the passenger really meant the ship did a 180 degree turn, which it would have to do in order to get back to port from whence it came...

 

I don't easily become alarmed, as an experienced sailor who has been in major storms & heavy seas on our sailboat..They scared me, but we always knew what our boat could withstand & had trust in it...We also were in a bad storm, crossing the Atlantic on the NCL Dream in 2002..They closed the Port of Azores to us & we had to continue on to Gibralter..I was only disappointed (not alarmed) that we missed the Azores..

 

However, if I was on the "Crown Princess", I probably would have been frightened and might not consider a cruise for a very long time..Hearing about this accident will not deter me from future cruises, but might think twice about cruising on any of the mega-ships (unless it was the only ship sailing an exciting itinerary ;) ) IMO the crew members who started to distribute life jackets to passengers acted in a prudent manner...Even if might have frightened some passengers, it's better to be safe than sorry..

 

Happy cruising everyone..Betty

[jan7487]

My husband and I were aboard the Ryndam during the listing incident off Buenos Aires on Feb.13/03. I still have the letter from Captain Eelcko Ypma telling us that it was caused by a "malfunction of the automatic steering system."

 

Am glad that it was not our first cruise with HA because it probably would have been our last. Since then we have logged many, many days with this more than great cruiseline---all of them pleasurable. But I guess it bothers me to this day that it was generally not believed by many posters on this board.