Bumped!

[newmexicoNita]

In a perfect world, a person's initial post would have all relevant info and would be presented in a logical manner. However, many posts are written on the fly or in the heat of the moment, and our minds do not always operate logically under those circumstances. Details that we forget to fully explain may be pertinent, but that doesn't mean we are purposely lying by omission. It just means they didn't immediately come to mind when we post something. We know our own situations and sometimes don't even think about the fact that others are completely ignorant of them. When we talk to our friends or family, we speak differently than we do to strangers - we don't have to explain everything. While I certainly wish all the facts had been posted at the beginning, I can understand why they might not have been without having to believe that someone is being deceptive. But, that's just me. I also am aware that while some have great written skills, it is a chore for others to try to express themselves and their accounts of things tend to be muddled - and the same person can be clear as a bell in one post, then write another that is nearly impossible to decipher. You can ask a question point-blank and get a response that is completely off-topic and meandering, so that you have no idea if there's an answer in there or not. This can be achieved in a 2-sentence post, btw. Most of the longer ones tend to make sense.

 

I guess ya'll better characterize me as a "gullible fool", although I wouldn't characterize myself that way. This situation has cost me nothing, after all. It hasn't really hurt me in any way. I simply feel sorry that anyone would end up with a last-minute cancellation and know that if I were in their shoes, I would feel a lot of emotions and none of them pleasant. I also might not have been thinking about anything other than the lateness of the cancellation and might not have expressed all the facts clearly. It's a cynical crowd around here sometimes. I tend to be an honest and trusting person, so accusations of deception don't sit well with me - even when they are not directed at me. I also have some memory impairment and give people the benefit of the doubt when they neglect to mention something. I often do it myself and would find it intolerable if folks accused me of purposely lying about things when I've merely forgotten a detail. Perhaps I'm simply coming from a different place than a lot of ya'll. I get that a lot. Ya know - in my own little world, but that's okay; they know me here ;)

I don't think anyone would call you a fool, gullible yes, very gullible,but stupid no or a fool no. It does boil down to how many of us, me included were raging mad when the OP posted. Like others, even though I am agent I felt sorry for her, couldn't understand how this could happen and now I feel like I was taken.. She did not forget the details, she choose to tell only her side til she got pinned down. Many things I questioned but when she suddenly decided she had booked world cruises on HAL, which could be true and was a deginated HAL specialist I thought about the entire story. Each line, by taking a few short classes on line or reading workbooks and taking open book test will certify you. Each line calls the certification something different, HAL does not call those who complete the classes or classes specialists. When I saw this, after everything else I had to conclude she is either a total phoney or certainly not being up front. More power to you for being so trusting, there are just some of us who see through what she said. This doesn't mean we are bad, not trusting or callis, but we do question some things. I am sure those like the OP love to have people like you in their corner. I will be anxious to see if we hear from her again. NMNita

[refman]

she knew the rules when she booked and still took the chance. if the trip was that important she would of booked earlier and paid normal rates,to bad!! no sympathy cause i`m glad to see someone get a taste of their own medicine so stop whining.

[Scrumpy]

I don't think anyone would call you a fool, gullible yes, very gullible,but stupid no or a fool no. It does boil down to how many of us, me included were raging mad when the OP posted. Like others, even though I am agent I felt sorry for her, couldn't understand how this could happen and now I feel like I was taken.. She did not forget the details, she choose to tell only her side til she got pinned down. Many things I questioned but when she suddenly decided she had booked world cruises on HAL, which could be true and was a deginated HAL specialist I thought about the entire story. Each line, by taking a few short classes on line or reading workbooks and taking open book test will certify you. Each line calls the certification something different, HAL does not call those who complete the classes or classes specialists. When I saw this, after everything else I had to conclude she is either a total phoney or certainly not being up front. More power to you for being so trusting, there are just some of us who see through what she said. This doesn't mean we are bad, not trusting or callis, but we do question some things. I am sure those like the OP love to have people like you in their corner. I will be anxious to see if we hear from her again. NMNita

 

I'd love to know how you can read minds and know someone's intent. You could make a lot of money teaching that skill. You may or may not be seeing through something; people do a lot of assuming around here - and it's more luck than anything else when someone is right about who is stirring the pot and who isn't. Lots of innocent posters have been pegged as troublemakers in error.

 

I seriously doubt we'll hear from the OP again - and certainly not for a long time since the trip starts tomorrow. As for what folks think of "people like me", well most of them think I'm pretty nice and they appreciate that I try not to make snap judgments, especially those that cast others in a negative light. I'd be in anyone's corner who got bumped at the last minute regardless of the cost of the trip and even if I didn't particularly like them.

[Scrumpy]

she knew the rules when she booked and still took the chance. if the trip was that important she would of booked earlier and paid normal rates,to bad!! no sympathy cause i`m glad to see someone get a taste of their own medicine so stop whining.

 

A taste of their own medicine? That's a leap. Let's see - a disappointed individual with a gripe against a large corporation gets skepticism and scathing remarks from people who seem to get enjoyment from seeing her lose her vacation at the eleventh hour - because she didn't recite chapter and verse about the rules under which she booked. I'm sorry you are glad this happened. That's a pity.

[DD]

I don't want to knock your being a a HAL specialist, but I just qualified also as well as on most cruise lines. You know and so do the rest of us agents, this is simply reading a book and taking a short test. It has nothing to do with how much we book them. NMNita

 

Hi Nita :) Have you done the HAL certification? It's not like some of the other cruiseline certifications. It's one of the best out there. It's quite in-depth and involves a number of exams. It's one of the certifications that actually takes an investment of time and expertise.

[DD]

At this point, it doesn't matter to me whether it is a TA rate or not. Bumping someone so very, very late in the game is simply not acceptable. They received virtually no notice - 72 or so hours is not much better than being bumped right at the dock. This is extremely disappointing, no matter how you slice it.

 

It IS acceptable because it's made very clear to us upfront that we can be bumped. Many ta's never travel this way for this very reason. Personally, I'd much rather pay retail and know that my vacation is confirmed.

 

I feel badly for the OP as I know I'd be disappointed in her shoes. But to imply that HAL did anything incorrect or unfair is wrong. Space available rates are exactly that; they are not guaranteed and the cruiseline makes no secret of it.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I guess the first thing I should say is that I am sorry to hear that QE2 (my favorite ship by the way) was bumped from his or her cruise. It is never nice to hear that this has happened.

 

Nonetheless, a travel agent should know that when on a travel agent fare, the risk of bumping is higher than usual, and take this into account when booking one of these fares.

 

It does not matter if you have an assigned cabin or not; a travel agent with an assigned cabin is still a lower priority than a "normal" passenger with a guarantee. If they bump someone, they are going to bump the travel agent and give that assignment cabin to the guarantee passenger.

 

I should note at this point that legally, cruise lines are within their rights if they bump passengers. Just about every cruise line's passage contract includes a clause that overbooking may occur and that passengers may be bumped. All the cruise line has to do, legally, is refund your fare. That's it.

 

Of course, all cruise lines try to avoid bumping passengers. The last thing they want is dissatisfied customers. Nonetheless, most cruise lines overbook. This is based on the same principle as overbooking in airlines, hotels, and so on. Basically, it is statistically shown that on average, a certain number of people will be "no shows". If the line only sold the amount of capacity the ship actually has, the ship would never be full, as there would always be people who do not show up. So, they use their elaborate computer models to predict just how many passengers are likely to show up on a given cruise, and then they oversell the cruise by that amount. The good news is that this translates into lower fares. The bad news is, sometimes the computers get it wrong, and not enough people cancel. So, the cruise line will call passengers and offer to give them an incentive to change to another departure. But still, sometimes not enough people take these incentives. At this point, the cruise line will have to "bump" some passengers - that is, deny them passage.

 

Now, under the terms of the passage contract, the cruise line can bump anyone, but they would rather bump some passengers than other passengers. Passengers who are travelling on an agent fare, an interline fare, or similar discounts not available to the public are first in line to be bumped, since they are basically deemed less important to the cruise line than other passengers. Generally, most people who book these fares are well aware of the nuances of using them and that if the cruise line needs to bump someone, they're going to be it. It is even more prudent than usual to take out insurance on fares like this, including airfare and other related costs, because the risk of bumping is higher.

 

Now, I am still sorry that QE2 got bumped, but as a travel agent I cannot help but think that he or she should have been aware that this is not especially out-of-the-ordinary for people travelling on special fares. This is the risk of travelling on a fare like this. Some here have equated it to standby air travel but this is not exactly true; a fare like the one QE2 booked is higher up on the pecking order than a standby or "space available" fare but still lower than passengers paying the normal published tariff.

 

While I'm sure we can all sympathize with QE2, I would suggest that perhaps we look at this from the cruise line's point of view:

 

Let's say that I work for a large corporation, General Widget. General Widget is one of the world's largest widget manufacturers. (A widget is a hypothetical product economists talk about. Later, it also became a nifty kind of application that lives on the Dashboard in Mac OS X. I mean the imaginary economic widget, not the kind of widget that tells me what time it is in Paris or what 11 metres is in feet.) Here at General Widget, we have a production capacity of 1,000 widgets per month. However, as the Director of Yield Management and Revenue Optimization for General Widget, I have analyzed years' worth of data using a sophisticated computer and have been able to predict that each month, about 100 people place an order for a widget but cancel that order before the order is fulfilled.

 

Each time someone orders a widget, that customer receives a specific number on the production line for a specific month in the future. For example, the customer might assigned line number 532 in August 2006. When the 1,000 slots run out, we begin to sell "widget guarantees". Guarantee customers do not receive a specific line number, but rather are merely guaranteed that a widget will be delivered to them within the month they requested. As customers with specific line numbers cancel, guarantee customers will be assigned the line numbers that are vacated.

 

I have also found that our profit can be maximized by offering certain groups special incentive prices for widgets. Normally a widget costs $100, but if you are a widget distributor, an employee or family member of an employee of General Widget or a company in the widget-related industry, or a journalist who covers widgets and the widget industry, you can buy a widget for the special incentive price of only $75.

 

This month, we have an unusually low number of cancellations. Instead of the usual 100 people, only 75 people cancel widget orders, leaving us with 1,025 orders to fulfill but only 1,000 production line slots.

 

Naturally, since we can only produce 1,000 widgets, we are going to have to cut the number of widgets delivered this month by 25. As Director of Yield Management and Revenue Optimzation, my first order of business is to contact all of our customers explaining that this month has been oversold and offering them a $10 discount if they are willing to postpone the delivery of their new widget to a month in the future. 10 customers accept this offer, leaving me with 1,015 customers. Of these, 1,000 are regular customers, while 15 are using incentive rates.

 

Now, I must make a decision: how do I decide which 15 customers' orders I should involuntarily cancel and refund? The answer is obvious: I should cancel the orders of the 15 customers receiving special discounts, and deliver the widgets of the remaining 1,000 customers. Some of the 15 "special" customers do have assigned line numbers, however, I will cancel their orders in order to open up these line numbers, and will then assign those line numbers to regular customers who purchased their widgets on a guarantee basis. Because I would rather upset the "special" customers who received discounts than my full-price-paying customers, this is the obvious course of action.

 

The only difference between the above situation and the one that resulted in QE2 being bumped is that we are dealing with cruises, not widgets. Of course, it is unfortunate to hear that anyone has been bumped, but a travel agent ought to know that sometimes this happens, and that passengers travelling on agent fares or other similar discounted fares will be the first to get bumped. I am, as I said, sorry to hear about this but I am glad that QE2 has been able to find a replacement cruise and I hope there is something that he or she, as well as other travel agents and people who might travel on "special" fares, can learn from this unfortunate situation.

[alwayscoldmom]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A". If so then I learned something really important from this post that I might have had to learn the hard way:eek:

[Ine]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A". If so then I learned something really important from this post that I might have had to learn the hard way:eek:

 

Check with your airline. Each airline has his own rules and it also depends on seniority/rank etc.

In principle, yes, you can be bumped as of course full paying passengers get priority. The airline is supposed to make money....

 

I have seen employees taken off the plane shortly before departures..

[Aussie Gal]

Doug,

 

Thanks for you wonderful explanation. When QE2 first posted, I did query about her being a TA as I know here at home the TA's do receive special benefits but she wasn't so forthcoming in the first few posts so we weren't really sure what was going on.

 

I feel for her as I would hate to have to rethink a vacation at short notice, but as you say, that is one of the downsides of getting a special deal and when one goes ahead and accepts the special rates, then one has to be prepared for a cancellation if the ship is overbooked.

 

Unfortunately she chose the wrong time. A couple of weeks later and she would have been able to cruise as HAL pointed out, but of course, August is the most popular month in Europe for holidaying and therefore the scarcity of cabins.

 

Jennie

[kimmeesook]

she knew the rules when she booked and still took the chance. if the trip was that important she would of booked earlier and paid normal rates,to bad!! no sympathy cause i`m glad to see someone get a taste of their own medicine so stop whining.

wow. clearly this response speaks more about you than it does the op.

[alwayscoldmom]

Ine-Thanks for your reply. I was talking about an interline cruise rate not about one for an airplane. I was/am fully aware about how easy it is to be pulled off an airplane at the last minute. I was blissfully unaware that in principal the same thing could happen to cruises that we booked with an interline discount. Now I know! And at least I won't be caught unaware.

 

Thanks Host Doug for your thoughtful post. I found it really helpful.

[newmexicoNita]

I'd love to know how you can read minds and know someone's intent. You could make a lot of money teaching that skill. You may or may not be seeing through something; people do a lot of assuming around here - and it's more luck than anything else when someone is right about who is stirring the pot and who isn't. Lots of innocent posters have been pegged as troublemakers in error.

 

I seriously doubt we'll hear from the OP again - and certainly not for a long time since the trip starts tomorrow. As for what folks think of "people like me", well most of them think I'm pretty nice and they appreciate that I try not to make snap judgments, especially those that cast others in a negative light. I'd be in anyone's corner who got bumped at the last minute regardless of the cost of the trip and even if I didn't particularly like them.

And if you read what I said, I think you are pretty nice too; that doesn't change my mind or others about the OP. What is it you don't understand: this is the way the game works when you are on an industry rate: she knew that or certainly should. Of course getting bumped so late sucks, but as agents we realize this can happen. For her to blame HAL just shouldn't happen. I am cruising HAL in Novemeber. I am on an industry rate (not a TA rate) I know what can happen. My biggest fear is we are traveling with friends and they are paying full fare. I do not expect to be bumped, it is the slow season, but I know it can happen. I didn't mean to insult you in anyway: you said you are gullible, I did agree, but I also admire your sticking by OP. NMnnita

[newmexicoNita]

Hi Nita :) Have you done the HAL certification? It's not like some of the other cruiseline certifications. It's one of the best out there. It's quite in-depth and involves a number of exams. It's one of the certifications that actually takes an investment of time and expertise.

I am doing it now: I know what you mean but I have done a couple others lately that were fairly involved. I wish all agents would take part in these ongoing training programs and yet even this one isn't like taking a college class or attending a week long siminar. NMNita

[newmexicoNita]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A". If so then I learned something really important from this post that I might have had to learn the hard way:eek:

It can happen, but I would be willing to bet it doesn't happen more than a couple times a year. As a TA I have only seen ships overbooked a couple of times in years and the offers are so good it isn't hard to get people to change their plans. We too fly and sail on interline rates. I prefer them to TA rates and have daughters who work for the airlines. So to answer your question yes, but I wouldn't even think about it; not going to happen. This was a very unusual situation. NMNita

[Live4cruises]

Host Doug,

 

Thank you for your calm and reasonable explanation. It's too bad that OP started out flaming and it took so much prodding to get "the rest of the story".

[dougnewmanatsea]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A".

Not exactly.

 

As I posted above, any passenger is possibly subjected to being bumped. However, if someone has to be bumped, they are more likely to do it to you on an interline rate than to someone who is paying full fare.

 

Flying on a pass is different - you wait until the flight closes and then, if there's an empty seat, they give you one. Booking a cruise on an interline rate, you will be "confirmed", but if the cruise is overbooked, you'll be high on the list of people to bump.

 

In theory, if the cruise was very severly overbooked, they would first bump all the people on interline, travel agent and other such fares, and then start bumping "regular" passengers.

[Writeratsea]

Not exactly.

 

As I posted above, any passenger is possibly subjected to being bumped. However, if someone has to be bumped, they are more likely to do it to you on an interline rate than to someone who is paying full fare.

 

Flying on a pass is different - you wait until the flight closes and then, if there's an empty seat, they give you one. Booking a cruise on an interline rate, you will be "confirmed", but if the cruise is overbooked, you'll be high on the list of people to bump.

 

In theory, if the cruise was very severly overbooked, they would first bump all the people on interline, travel agent and other such fares, and then start bumping "regular" passengers.

This thread has become so convoluted that I had to go back and reread all the posts. My initial impression when I read the original post was outrage for two reasons. One that HAL cancelled at 5 PM on Friday when she was due to sail on Monday. Two that after she accepted the cancellation, she was in penalty and not going to get a refund. Certainly emotions were running high in the early posts. Then we slowly were told more important details of the story, prompted by sharp questions. It has become obvious that QE2 took a calculated gamble. She booked past the final payment deadline and booked a discounted rate guarantee. This seems like a good gamble and it appeared to have paid off when she received her documents including a stateroom number. Based on this, she could now book the air and train portions to complete the itinerary. Then it all fell apart. In hindsight, she could have booked a regular rate for a specific cabin and probably would have gotten quoted a good price. What is missing is we don't know how much space was left open when she first started this whole process. That is a critical piece of information. If there were only 3 cabins open when she started then it really would have been a gamble with a small chance of success. If there were a lot of open cabins, then there would have been a reasonable chance of success. In planning a trip of this kind, experienced travel agents look at the overall booking picture before advising whether to risk a guarantee or outright specific booking. It is necessary to know the booking situation when she first initiated her personal reservation. I can see how some people have felt misled by the absence of information early on. But she is getting her refund and she is going on an alternative trip and hopefully she will get reimbursed for her plane and hotel costs. It is just disapointing that HAL cancelled at such a late time. Could that have been avoided with more advance notice or more alternatives for her. Obviously this experience with HAL has left a bad taste only in her mouth and she would be reluctant to reccommend HAL in the future. After all these posts and comments, I am not sure if I am clearer in understanding the whole situation. Should we blame her, HAL or the whole overbooking process. As NewMexicoNita suggests this was a unique situation that does not apply to 99.9% of the cruisers. This was a cruise in high season, at a popular destination and booked at a TA discounted rate with a guarantee. A combination of factors which predictably resulted in a very small chance of succeeding. The original post was a little bit misleading with words like "beware" and not getting a refund even though she was cancelled through no fault of her own. I would have been happier if she simply stated that she was disapointed and clearer about the circumstances. It was a difficult situation for the cruise line as well. I am just glad I didn't have to make that telephone call in a no win situation. This thread has not changed my opinion of HAL and are still considering HAL for our next cruise. This is why I wandered over here in the first place to do research. I think I might just look at a Cruise Critic cruise for HAL. That way if anything happens, I will have the plentiful company of fellow CCers to commisserate with.

[hammybee]

In theory, if the cruise was very severly overbooked, they would first bump all the people on interline, travel agent and other such fares, and then start bumping "regular" passengers.

 

______________________________________________________________

 

Don't you mean providing incentive to passengers to take a different cruise opposed to bumping "regular' passengers? While the result is the same, I think the cruiseline approach is different.

[newmexicoNita]

______________________________________________________________

 

Don't you mean providing incentive to passengers to take a different cruise opposed to bumping "regular' passengers? While the result is the same, I think the cruiseline approach is different.

Hammy, basically you are right but I think what Doug meant was, if they couldn't get people to change plans. Just like the airlines do with passengers: they don't like to bump except for course interliners; they offer the best incentives possible to get people to change their plans, but if this doesn't work they have no choice. As for cruise ships, the incentives are usually very good plus as said, this rarely happens, but in the event they couldn't get others to change plans they had no choice and of course, first comes TA as we travel the cheapest, then interliners and on up the line. We also keep forgetting she was given an option. Unfortunitely it wasn't one she could take or wanted to take, whichever. NMnita

[hammybee]

As for cruise ships, the incentives are usually very good plus as said, this rarely happens, but in the event they couldn't get others to change plans they had no choice and of course, first comes TA as we travel the cheapest, then interliners and on up the line. NMnita

 

________________________________________________________________

I am curious if you or any TA is aware of a relatively recent bump by a cruiseline (other than the unfortunate Oceonia thing that was due to internal training problems that was subsequently taken care of by the CEO). It seems to me that the cruise lines , like airlines, would continue to accelerate the incentive to obtain the necessary number of passengers to volunteer to change their plans, ala what happened on Rita's cruise. Given the number of passengers on any overbooked cruise, it seems almost impossible that there would not be a way to work it out.

[mancunian]

I don't fully understand this overbooking principle. Surely the whole thing shows up at the final payment stage and I don't see how they can be bumping anyone, TA or not, 4 days before the cruise. They should have ample time to sort our who is prepared to change to another date and for later no shows surely they are holding on to the fare anyway.

[cruiseco]

What bothers me as a former TA is the idea that a TA would actively discourage clients from booking with HAL over this -- even if HAL is a perfect match for the client. As other TAs have said, booking a TA fare is a hit and miss proposition. You always know that you may not be sailing and you always know that you may not be notified until the last minute.

 

If I was taking a cruise as a vacation and really couldn't afford to be bumped (sailing with friends opr family susally) I would never tkae a TA rate even if it was offered. Too much of a chance that I'd be sitting home while everyone else was having a good time.

 

But if the OP is really a professional he/she would not let this event (which was predictable and totally within HAL's rights) take clients who would match up perfectly with HAL's product and move them somewhere else. That's just letting your personal disappointment get in the way of doing what's right.

[RuthC]

What bothers me as a former TA is the idea that a TA would actively discourage clients from booking with HAL over this -- even if HAL is a perfect match for the client. As other TAs have said, booking a TA fare is a hit and miss proposition. You always know that you may not be sailing and you always know that you may not be notified until the last minute.

 

But if the OP is really a professional he/she would not let this event (which was predictable and totally within HAL's rights) take clients who would match up perfectly with HAL's product and move them somewhere else. That's just letting your personal disappointment get in the way of doing what's right.

Exactly.

[Scrumpy]

And if you read what I said, I think you are pretty nice too; that doesn't change my mind or others about the OP. What is it you don't understand: this is the way the game works when you are on an industry rate: she knew that or certainly should. Of course getting bumped so late sucks, but as agents we realize this can happen. For her to blame HAL just shouldn't happen. I am cruising HAL in Novemeber. I am on an industry rate (not a TA rate) I know what can happen. My biggest fear is we are traveling with friends and they are paying full fare. I do not expect to be bumped, it is the slow season, but I know it can happen. I didn't mean to insult you in anyway: you said you are gullible, I did agree, but I also admire your sticking by OP. NMnnita

 

Thanks; I'm not really insulted and I didn't mean to come across as if I were. I think most people are far too cynical. I don't know the OP and occasionally stick up for people when I think they're being dog-piled unjustly. I understand everything that has been written; I disagree about whether the policy itself is a fair one when it is so late in the game. Bump a month out, fine. But, with less than a week? Regardless of the policy itself, implementing the bump privilege so late does not seem fair to me - and it also seems risky when you're dealing with a TA who may be able to affect your future business (to a tiny degree).

 

Comments suggest the OP has no right to be upset that plans were changed at the last minute. First, I don't accept that it is okay (or what someone has coming to them) for a cruise to be cancelled with so little notice; it's a crappy policy. Sure, they know COULD happen, but it could happen to any of us, at least in theory, per the contract itself. There is an extremely small risk of that for any of us and when it happens, it benefits those with flexible travel plans since they'll normally give a full fare paying passenger incentives to switch cruises. Second, a person is going to react to things in their own way and I don't think other folks grant them the "right" to be upset about something. We may disagree with the reaction, but that's our issue. Things got a bit nasty regarding this topic and the point was lost. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean you should do it.

 

Reading forward, I will speculate that the reason she couldn't/wouldn't change her plans was because she was travelling with an 8 year old. I'd imagine that in September, the child would be back in school. The child has already been getting quite an education in the "ways of the world", I'd say.