Personal DVD player in the Dining room?

[junglejane]

I can't believe what I'm reading in some of these posts. The OP asked a simple question in the Family forum about the suitability of using a DVD player for a 15 month old in the dining room. It seems to me this thread was dragged over here for no purpose other than to ridicule others. Why can't some people restrict their responses to the question posed instead of leaping to all sorts of unwarranted and judgmental conclusions about the parenting skills of others? (E.g., "self-absorbed" "over-indulgent" etc etc.)

 

Personally, I chose not to cruise with my kids until the youngest was 4. And it never even occurred to me to bring our DVD player to the dining room (although we do use one on the plane and in the stateroom). Cruising has been a great way for them to learn about fine dining in a formal setting, and now I can take them to a nice upscale restaurant and be confident they know how to behave.

 

On the other hand, for whatever reason the OP is cruising with a 15 month old. A child that age can't be left in Club HAL. Perhaps the OP is traveling with a family group. Will anyone outside the OP's family be at the dinner table? If not, then I'd be less inclined to care about the DVD player. A 15 month old just can't be held to the same standard as even a 4 year old.

 

If the OP will be seated with others outside the family, then I'd recommend that they either eat in the buffet or travel on a line with in-cabin babysitting, such as Celebrity. (Not sure if HAL offers this.) Gee whiz, I managed to give my opinion without calling the OP and other cruising parents a bunch of insulting names.

 

--Junglejane

[nrdsb4]

IWhy can't some people restrict their responses to the question posed instead of leaping to all sorts of unwarranted and judgmental conclusions about the parenting skills of others? (E.g., "self-absorbed" "over-indulgent" etc etc.)

 

 

--Junglejane

 

The OP that was quoted in the OP of this thread asked "Do you think this is acceptable?"

 

She asked for opinions and that is what she got. I'm not advocating name calling, but really, this was not a simple yes/no question such as "Do they have equal in the formal dining room?" This is a message forum which will generate all kinds of discourse, some of it "judgmental." Commanding people to respond in a particular way will not work as long as human nature continues to be what it is. If the mods decide a thread has gone haywire, the will certainly shut it down. In fact, it happens on many a thread about kids because people have such strong opinions about child raising.

[SarahQ]

The OP that was quoted in the OP of this thread asked "Do you think this is acceptable?"

 

She asked for opinions and that is what she got. I'm not advocating name calling, but really, this was not a simple yes/no question such as "Do they have equal in the formal dining room?" This is a message forum which will generate all kinds of discourse, some of it "judgmental." Commanding people to respond in a particular way will not work as long as human nature continues to be what it is. If the mods decide a thread has gone haywire, the will certainly shut it down. In fact, it happens on many a thread about kids because people have such strong opinions about child raising.

nrdsb4, I would normally totally agree that all kinds of comments and opinions are and should be welcome, since the CruiseCritic forum is indeed a discussion board; however, where some of us think this thread has gone wrong is the context.

 

The OP of the original thread posted in the Family Cruising section, asking for opinions on the appropriateness of something she had read about others doing (on both the Family Cruising and the RCCL boards). By posting on the Family Cruising boards, she was hoping to solicit the opinion of those who are in the same situation. Note that she was sailing on Royal Caribbean's Mariner of the Seas. And, for the most part, she got diverse but generally on topic and polite feedback.

 

Then, someone from the HAL board decides that they need to make everyone aware of this possibility (personal DVD players in the dining room) and instead of simply posing the question for discussion and providing their own opinion (eg. "Wow, I would never think of doing something like this - what does everyone else think?), they post their judgemental comments:

 

What is this woman thinking?...I could only think that they have the TV on 24/7 while they are at home.

*Bold above is my addition

 

Let me remind everyone that this woman was not even going on a HAL cruise, and I think we are all aware that RCCL and HAL are quite different when it comes to the average cruiser on their ships - so how is it appropriate to post a link to her thread on the HAL boards and ridicule her personally (as the OP of this thread did, see above), when she wasn't travelling on HAL nor looking for the advice of HAL cruisers on this topic? The answer is, it isn't.

 

While I understand wanting to discuss the topic of personal DVDs in the dining room, the way this was done is unacceptable and is poor form on any message board. Frankly, considering the tone of the first post of this thread, I'm not suprised it turned into parent-bashing.

 

Sorry if it seems "self-absorbed" and "over-indulgent" of me to point this out, but personal attacks should never be acceptable, especially in a situation where the thread has been taken out of context.

[nrdsb4]

nrdsb4, I would normally totally agree that all kinds of comments and opinions are and should be welcome, since the CruiseCritic forum is indeed a discussion board; however, where some of us think this thread has gone wrong is the context.

 

The OP of the original thread posted in the Family Cruising section, asking for opinions on the appropriateness of something she had read about others doing (on both the Family Cruising and the RCCL boards). By posting on the Family Cruising boards, she was hoping to solicit the opinion of those who are in the same situation. Note that she was sailing on Royal Caribbean's Mariner of the Seas. And, for the most part, she got diverse but generally on topic and polite feedback.

 

Then, someone from the HAL board decides that they need to make everyone aware of this possibility (personal DVD players in the dining room) and instead of simply posing the question for discussion and providing their own opinion (eg. "Wow, I would never think of doing something like this - what does everyone else think?), they post their judgemental comments:

 

*Bold above is my addition

 

Let me remind everyone that this woman was not even going on a HAL cruise, and I think we are all aware that RCCL and HAL are quite different when it comes to the average cruiser on their ships - so how is it appropriate to post a link to her thread on the HAL boards and ridicule her personally (as the OP of this thread did, see above), when she wasn't travelling on HAL nor looking for the advice of HAL cruisers on this topic? The answer is, it isn't.

 

While I understand wanting to discuss the topic of personal DVDs in the dining room, the way this was done is unacceptable and is poor form on any message board. Frankly, considering the tone of the first post of this thread, I'm not suprised it turned into parent-bashing.

 

Sorry if it seems "self-absorbed" and "over-indulgent" of me to point this out, but personal attacks should never be acceptable, especially in a situation where the thread has been taken out of context.

 

You make some good points. But if this thread was "unacceptable" simply by virtue of its existence, the mods should have removed it pronto. I never read the first one, wouldn't have known about it otherwise.

 

Please note that I personally never called anyone self absorbed or overindulgent, which your last little dig could easily be interpreted to imply. I would never call anyone names (though using the adjective "overindulgent" being categorized as name calling is stretching it IMO, as opposed to calling someone a clod or an idiot), even when my opinion has been challenged pretty vigorously. I just don't get all that riled up by disagreement, in fact I find it very enlightening at times.

[junglejane]

I'm all for a spirited debate about the acceptability of DVD players in the dining room. All I'm asking for is a little civility and respect for others. Surely the standard shouldn't be that anything goes as long as the thread doesn't get shut down. Can't we moderate ourselves instead of relying on the forum hosts?

 

Most people on this thread are engaging in spirited debate. However, the comments below are the main ones that I think are over the line (in addition to the original post that started this thread, and the previously mentioned "self-absorbed" and "over-indulgent"):

 

"IMHO, the parents were spoiled, over indulged, call it what you will. The parents are used to getting their own way and now they are training THEIR child to be the same."

The poster knows all this about the OP based on the fact that the OP dared to ask a question about DVD players?

 

"Great example of parents who have no control over 15 mo old and will have no control over the kid when he/she is 15 yrs old."

Leaping to the conclusion that because the OP dared ask other parents a question about DVD players, she's doomed to raise a juvenile delinquent.

 

"No wonder you haven't got any children."

Not nice.

 

"It is a matter of imposing boorish, badly raised brats upon the rest of society."

DVD players at dinners are in bad taste, but I don't think they'll lead directly to the decline of civilization!

 

 

 

Yes, the OP asked for feedback. Feedback about the appropriateness of DVD players in the dining room, not about her personal parenting skills. Again, most who responded did so politely. It's the few who didn't that I have a problem with.

 

--Junglejane

[nrdsb4]

I understand what you're saying. People should always be civil and nice. They shouldn't make judgmental statements when they could easily answer the question differently. They should be kind even when disagreeing.

 

I'm just saying as long as people are people, it's just not going to happen. Wishing it were so and demanding that people behave won't change the reality that some people are very blunt, some are rude, and some are outright nasty. Even then intepreting anyone's response is a subjective endeavor. The only thing you can control are your own responses. I just don't allow nasty people to upset me whether or not they are replying to someone else or to me. You can't give your power away to them, or they have accomplished exactly what they set out to do. With or without the moderators involved, there will always be rude responses on these boards because that is the nature of the human race. Some kind, not not.

[SarahQ]

You make some good points. But if this thread was "unacceptable" simply by virtue of its existence, the mods should have removed it pronto. I never read the first one, wouldn't have known about it otherwise.

 

Please note that I personally never called anyone self absorbed or overindulgent, which your last little dig could easily be interpreted to imply. I would never call anyone names (though using the adjective "overindulgent" being categorized as name calling is stretching it IMO, as opposed to calling someone a clod or an idiot), even when my opinion has been challenged pretty vigorously. I just don't get all that riled up by disagreement, in fact I find it very enlightening at times.

nrdsbr, my apologies - I should have made it clear that my entire post wasn't actually directed at you or meant to be in reply to your previos post, just the opening comment.

 

I think your posts have been very civil and level-headed, and my last comment was definitely not meant to be a dig at you...more at those who seem to want to demean my entire generation of fellow parents.

 

As for the thread, its not that I think that simply because it was posted out of context with what could be categorized as nasty remarks about the OP it should be removed by moderators (however, if any mods are reading, it may be worth mentioning if CC has a policy on re-posting/re-directing threads); however, doing so is lacking in ettiquette (both online forum and general decorum, IMHO) and should be frowned upon.

 

I think junglejane summed up fairly accurately the 'inconsiderate' parts of this thread. I can't say I'm a big fan of heavy-handed moderating; however, just because a thread isn't going to be removed, there should be some level of self-control and self-editing going on.

 

I definitely think this is an interesting topic to discuss, I just wish that the nastiness (beginning with the original post in this thread) could be left out. Then again, everyone is entitled to say whatever they like - just understand that as much as posters have the right to make whatever comments they like, I have the right to point out how assumptive, illogical and rude they might be ;)

[nrdsb4]

I definitely think this is an interesting topic to discuss, I just wish that the nastiness (beginning with the original post in this thread) could be left out. Then again, everyone is entitled to say whatever they like - just understand that as much as posters have the right to make whatever comments they like, I have the right to point out how assumptive, illogical and rude they might be ;)

 

I couldn't agree more.

[Onessa]

We have one DD (now 11YO) has been travelling since she was just a few weeks old, incluing cruising since she was a baby.

 

This is not a black and white issue - - a child can participate in the evening meal AND still be able to do something else to keep himself entertained during part of it. Our DD has always been expected to participate -- when we are seated, she knows it is her job to decide what she wants to eat, when the food is served she knows she needs to be eating (not playing) but when the adults start in on their third or fourth course or coffee after dessert - she is not expected to hang with rapt attention on all that is going on about her.

 

On some cruise lines, the children's program starts during early seating and one of her parents will escort her to kids program between courses. Other times she may choose or need to stay throughout the entire meal. She will not be allowed to doodle, or read, or play quietly unless it is an appropriate time to do so. We were at a small wedding this weekend - she was the only child invited. She did very well at the pre-reception, carried on a good conversation during the dinner, but when the adults chose to sit over coffee for a half-an-hour prior to the dancing, I had no problem with her moving off to a comfy chair nearby and playing her Nintendo DS (with an earbud) for 20 minutes. When the music started, she danced with the rest of us and had a great time (I am a bit concerned though since she caught the boquet!)

 

My point is that one can have expectations of even the littlest ones, but the expectations need to be based in reality. If your littlest one's reality is that he/she will need some diversion(s), plan for them and plan them in such a manner that they are not intrusive to others.

[Onessa]

A second consideration is that too often the child(ren) are ignored by all the other adults at the table. Would we consider it rude to ignore one of the adult pax seated at our dinner table. Of course we would! But many adults seated at our table have blatently ignored our DD or other young people seated at the table. Do at least acknowledge ALL of your tablemates and even if the younger people do not engage in a full blown conversation at least you've tried (I've sometimes tried to engage adults in conversation at the table and have not had much luck either!)

[Pam in CA]

Personally, I think a DVD player or iPod at the dinner table is inappropriate. You wouldn't allow it at home during dinner so I have a hard time understanding why it would be allowed on a cruise.

 

There are many different cruising options out there and the parent knows their child best. If they are aware that the child will need a distraction during dinner, then perhaps HAL isn't the right cruiseline until they're older.

 

Dinnertime is an opportunity for parents and child(ren) to interact no matter what the age. We're all so busy in our daily lives that this isn't always possible but if you're on a cruise together, it's a great opportunity. And yes, I feel a 15-mo old, or younger, can be fine in a dining room during a long dinner. In my experience, it's a matter of planning and the parent entertaining their child and knowing when/if they're overstimulated.

 

We took my daughter with us out to dinner in restaurants from the time she was an infant, including long, leisurely dinners at the Ritz in Boston. If she became restless, I left the room with her until she was able to resume. There's no reason why, if a child becomes restless in a cruise dining room, that the parent can't take them outside for a time out. On our 2-week cruise last summer, we had late dining and there was a couple with a baby who wasn't even walking yet who dined in the dining room every evening. They and the baby had a great time, always smiling, and if the baby fussed at all, one of them took her outside for a short while.

 

Yes, it's your cruise and you've paid good money but when you're cruising with thousands of others, that doesn't give you the right to disrupt or disturb others' enjoyment of the cruise. It doesn't matter whether it's with a toddler or over-indulging. I don't mean to question parenting skills but the bottom line is that you are the parent and the adult.

[navybankerteacher]

I do not believe any of the postings were "insulting" -- simply because they expressed the view of the poster. It would be a sterile discussion indeed if comments had to be limited to a simple "yes" or "no" to the question of whether DVD's were appropriate in the dining room. I suppose a tally of votes yea or nay might interest some, but the rationale behind peoples views is what makes the discussion interesting and worthwhile. Some of us have valid reasons for thinking one way or the other on the subject - I hope no one took offense at my suggestion that overly permissive parenting was not the ideal ... just as I did not take offense at the more pointed personal comment when a poster effectively equated my traditional approach to child-rearing with floging.

[OceanLiner]

Where do people get the crazy idea that this is even remotely appropriate?

 

Good manners are taught at a young age and reinforced all their lives - not something that is tossed aside for convenience-sake until they have to put on a suit to get a job.

 

...and parents wonder why their kids have ADD nowadays.

:cool:

I cannot agree more. Our children have eaten in the finest dining rooms from Paris to Hawaii, and on some of the best ships sailing. NEVER with electronic devices. Part of the teaching of manners is the concept of social interaction; with the wait staff, other guests at the table, and with each other. Sometimes a child, or an adult, might have an off day. Then we would grab a slice on the street, or a bite at the Lido, but never a DVD in the dining room.I am at a complete loss as to how someone can arrive at the decision that this type of behaviour is acceptable.

[DMRick]

ideal ... just as I did not take offense at the more pointed personal comment when a poster effectively equated my traditional approach to child-rearing with floging.

Flogging..a little difference from a smack which was the old time (and poor in my opinion) traditional way of bringing up children. I prefer neither, but certainly you don't think flogging is the same as a smack.

 

I am at a complete loss as to how someone can arrive at the decision that this type of behaviour is acceptable.

And I'm at a complete loss as to why someone would think the parent doesn't know best, and make a decision on something like this based on what they know about their own child. I have no idea how this would impact on others, unless they did not use headphones, or ear buds. Other than a way for others to make comments on parenting skills, what difference does it make how a parent chooses to have a peaceful meal..either by making trips out with an unruly child, eating at a buffet, or entertaining a child..it's the parents choice and should have no impact on others in teh same room. A half hour dinner at home, is hardly the same as a long drawn out dinner on a cruise. The child you see with a DVD on the cruise, doesn't have to mean he would bring that DVD to the home dinner table.

[nrdsb4]

 

And I'm at a complete loss as to why someone would think the parent doesn't know best, and make a decision on something like this based on what they know about their own child.

 

I think it's naive to think parents always know best. The world is full of evidence to repudiate that fact, and even the best of parents don't always know best on any given day.

 

Secondly, the OP asked if others thought this was appropriate, meaning, she wasn't even sure about it herself. By asking this question, she invited opinions that it was NOT appropriate.

[OceanLiner]

The original post stated that the parent wanted to use the DVD with the volume turned down low, no mention of ear buds or headphones. Having taken several Disney Cruises our family is trying to remember ever seeing anyone with electronic devices at a DCL table. The best we can remember is a teenager who was playing some kind of hand held game. We have never seen this kind of activity on HAL. On our last cruise on the Volendam, we were one tier up on the lower level, looking down on the rear of the dining room. There was an extended family of 12 on the lower rear which included two toddlers. Yes, on occasion these kids got restless, but everyone in the group took turns talking and interacting with the kids and everything went just fine, but it took some effort for the family. They did not just hook the kids up to some device.

[babyher]

Like many of the hot button topics here, these threads do unfortunately get a little nasty.

 

Speaking for myself, I agree with some of the people here , I would rather see a child sitting quietly and watching his DVD than screeming, crying or generally disrupting everyone else.

 

The OP we are talking about here is concerning a 15 month old child. For those of you who once had a 15 month old child , you cannot reason with them. Yes you do everything in your power to soothe them, and quiet them, and avoid them from disturbing others. And some times it works, and sometimes it doesn't. But, as a parent you can only do the best you can.

 

I have seen a lot of parents in public with a young child, that will simply not stop crying, You can give him a bottle, pacifier, cookie, let him play with your keys , change him, let him watch a DVD, they just will not stop.

I feel bad for the parents , they are doing their best.

 

When you get down to brass tacks the OP knowing that their 15 month old may get fussy at dinner was asking advice about a solution they had to prevent this. If they didn't care , they would never have asked peoples opinions in a public forum. Sorry if their solution didn't measure up to some peoples ideal of good parenting. But they were trying.

 

Yes I agree there are plenty of inconsiderate parents out there who will just do what they want and to hell with others. But i think in this case the OP really was just asking advice on a solution she truly thought would be the best all around for them, their child, AND fellow pax in the dining room.

[DMRick]

I think it's naive to think parents always know best. The world is full of evidence to repudiate that fact, and even the best of parents don't always know best on any given day.

 

Well, she wasn't asking if it would be all right if her child quit school (I do agree perhaps if a parent ok'd that, that parent wouldn't be knowing what's best)..but I do assume in this situation (which is what I was talking about) she knows best on how her child will act at dinner.

As to the original question, I think those of us who understand why she might need to resort to a DVD player, made it clear we would only think it's right if there were headphones or ear buds. If not, then I would not think it's ok, as it then could impact on others.

[kryos]

I think those of us who understand why she might need to resort to a DVD player, made it clear we would only think it's right if there were headphones or ear buds. If not, then I would not think it's ok, as it then could impact on others.

If I am not mistaken, portable DVD players don't even come standard with speakers. You can surely buy external speakers for them ... but generally the devices can only be used with earbuds or headphones. At least that's the way mine is configured.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[nrdsb4]

If I am not mistaken, portable DVD players don't even come standard with speakers. You can surely buy external speakers for them ... but generally the devices can only be used with earbuds or headphones. At least that's the way mine is configured.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

Mine can be used with or without headphones. She did mention that she would turn the volume down low, which led me to believe that she didn't have headphones or that perhaps her 15 month old wouldn't want to wear them. I don't know that mine would have.

[junglejane]

Our children have eaten in the finest dining rooms from Paris to Hawaii, and on some of the best ships sailing. NEVER with electronic devices. Part of the teaching of manners is the concept of social interaction; with the wait staff, other guests at the table, and with each other. Sometimes a child, or an adult, might have an off day. Then we would grab a slice on the street, or a bite at the Lido, but never a DVD in the dining room.I am at a complete loss as to how someone can arrive at the decision that this type of behaviour is acceptable.

 

OceanLiner, did you see that the OP was asking about a 15 month old? I'm all for teaching your children manners, including social interaction. But a 15 month old is sub-rational. His vocabulary probably consists of 5-10 words, and even those can only be deciphered by mommy and daddy. His idea of social interaction is probably to throw cheerios at you.

 

That's why my recommendation to the OP was eat in the buffet or use an in-cabin babysitter while the parents dine. But I also said that if the whole table consisted of the OP's friends and family, then I saw no problem with the portable DVD player (assuming earphones so others can't hear it).

 

I agree that an older child should be taught to participate at dinner with good manners, including proper social interaction. But a child as young as the OP's isn't ready for that.

 

I also think that the fact that the OP asked the question showed that she does care about the impact of her actions on others in the dining room. The horrible parents are the ones that wouldn't even bother to think about how their actions impact others, much less ask for advice on Cruisecritic. Let's direct our condemnations at them, not the OP who came honestly seeking advice.

 

--Junglejane

[peaches from georgia]

I have a 15 month old granddaughter and she would never sit still watching a dvd, w/ or w/out earphones, for any length of time to begin with. An infant would be a lot easier in the dining room than an active 1 - 3 yr old who is not quite capable yet of being reasoned with and has a very short attention span, dvd or no dvd.

[nrdsb4]

I have a 15 month old granddaughter and she would never sit still watching a dvd, w/ or w/out earphones, for any length of time to begin with. An infant would be a lot easier in the dining room than an active 1 - 3 yr old who is not quite capable yet of being reasoned with and has a very short attention span, dvd or no dvd.

 

When my daughter was 15 months old, I put in "The Jungle Book." I had never attempted to show her a movie before. She was absolutely mesmerized and watched the entire movie from start to finish. Problem was, she wanted to watch it every day after that!

 

My second daughter would not have sat still for 2 minutes to watch anything at that age. So, I guess it just depends on the child.

[iceman93]

I also think that the fact that the OP asked the question showed that she does care about the impact of her actions on others in the dining room. The horrible parents are the ones that wouldn't even bother to think about how their actions impact others, much less ask for advice on Cruisecritic. Let's direct our condemnations at them, not the OP who came honestly seeking advice.

 

Remember that the true OP was asking their question on a section of the site dedicated to children's issues. The OP here in our HAL board was indignantly asking if anyone could conceive of such a heinous action. I just want to make sure that the right "OP" gets credit for seeking advice.

[Pam in CA]

OceanLiner, did you see that the OP was asking about a 15 month old? I'm all for teaching your children manners, including social interaction. But a 15 month old is sub-rational. His vocabulary probably consists of 5-10 words, and even those can only be deciphered by mommy and daddy. His idea of social interaction is probably to throw cheerios at you.

 

That's why my recommendation to the OP was eat in the buffet or use an in-cabin babysitter while the parents dine. But I also said that if the whole table consisted of the OP's friends and family, then I saw no problem with the portable DVD player (assuming earphones so others can't hear it).

I agree that you can't rationalize or train a 15MO. However, there are options for entertaining or keeping your child occupied rather than sticking an electronic babysitter in front of them. Every child is different and if the child isn't able to sit through a dinner in the dining room, then they shouldn't be brought to dinner in the dining room. If the parent insists on bringing a child with a short attention span to the dining room, then they should be prepared to "parent." A DVD player shouldn't replace being a parent.