Why I dislike...and Avoid Most Tours

[Hlitner]

I have spent over 20 years helping others enjoy independent travel (our passion) while also trying to support those that insist or need guided tours. I did this knowing that some tours get "kickbacks" from certain recommended shops, make stops at certain "factories" who pay for this privilege, etc. Even many of the private guides get "kickbacks" from the shops they visit, the restaurants that feed their clients, etc. As to the cruise lines, many of their tours are horribly overpriced, and the cruise lines often use on-board port lecturers who are actually subcontractors working for a company that represents the recommended merchants. There is an interesting article at

[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3081152/"]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3081152/[/url]

which now adds some fuel to this fire. Many years ago, on a Princess cruise lines visit to Ephesus, our tour to the ruins was cut short by our guide so she could take us to a jewelery factory (where we were held for over an hour). There was such an outcry from the passengers that Princess refunded everyone's money from our tour bus. This practice has now become pretty routine, but also more subtle. Should passengers stop paying for tours? Or course not. But please be aware, educated, and carefully make your choices.

Hank

[jhannah]

I always wondered about this. How convenient that we stop at the Tortuga rum store in Grand Cayman, and a souvenir store in the middle of nowhere on the way to the Tulum ruins in Mexico. (When everything they had to offer was available at Tulum itself.) Oh well, as in anything, [I]buyer beware![/I]

'Vegas Jim

[Jane110]

Hank,

I'm with you 100%. We're not "tour" people and have travelled all over the world by ourselves.

Sometimes in a very foreign city we might hire a private guide for a half or full day for the first day so that we may get a bit of an orientation and/or see a couple of the "must see" spots with some insider knowledge. We did this in Vietnam and it helped us tremendously for the next 5 days on our own. When we spent 2 weeks in Moscow, we hired a private guide and driver for our first day and then spent the rest of our days in Moscow on our own. (sometimes hiring a driver at night)

In Bangkok we hired a private guide and driver for a day. We knew she was going to take us to a sapphire factory for a "tour" (yeah, shopping stop where she gets commission). However, we weighed the options. The hotel was going to charge us $200. for a day and she was was charging us $30. Both offered an english speaking guide and car w/ driver and a/c.
So we saved $170., bought a $25. lacquer elephant to make her happy and quickly got out of the place. And we did see ALL the places that WE wanted to see. Win-Win.

But when I go to the churches in Italy or the museums in Paris and see the tour groups of people being led by the nose, being told how long they can stay at a place and dictated to where they're going next, it just bewilders me why they would chose to go this route.

My Mother and her beau, who at this stage of their lives can't deal with heavy luggage and complicated transfers of trains, buses & planes will book a tour with Tauck and then go off on their own every day (unless of course they're driving through the countryside) and have dinner everynight at a place they've researched, and not "go where everyone else goes".

Why see a city like Paris, London or Rome from inside the bus?

IMHO, it's the difference between being a traveler and a tourist. You and I prefer to be travelers. Other's prefer to "get on the bus".
We pays our money and we makes our choices. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Mike Andrews]

I think more and more people are taking the independent route especially in Europe where public transport is so accessible and reliable and these boards offer superb advice to the independent traveler.There is also the great list of private drivers and independent tour guides who are becoming increasingly flexible and who are offering greater value for money.

[samscruiser]

Thanks to everyone, and especially Hank and Mike, for your help.
We've done ports on our own for several years, but this will be our first time in Europe. Your help has been first class and will make our trip much more enjoyable, and affordable, than it could otherwise be.
When I see the tour bus groups, I always think we should hear a bunch of mooing and Rawhide music in the background.

94 Fantasy - Bahamas
95 Fantasy - Bahamas
02 Inspiration - West Carrib
03 Sensation - Exotic West Carrib
04 Royal Princess - European Explorer

[Bruin Steve]

Well, allow me to offer an opposing view...

First, I have travelled all over...and by all means of travel (except packaged bus tours--I've avoided those)...I've done my own thing in Europe by train and by rental car...and I have cruised to both the Baltic and the Mediterranean...

In ports, coming off cruise ships, I have done my own thing and I've also booked ships' shore excursions...

To me, every method of touring these ports has its merits AND it negatives...

On our last Med cruise, this past August, we chose to do ALL ship shore excursions...Are we crazy? No, I don't think so...

First, note that we had been to 8 of the 10 ports at least once previously...We had no need to cram as much into the short visit as possible...whatever we saw on our excursion was generally "enough"...The cost may have included a slight"premium"...Frankly, I don't care that much...a few dollars one way or the other on a several thousand dollar vacation isn't going to make or break me...Of course, we continually compared notes with tablemates and other shipmates who did "private tours" or "do it yourselfs"...We generally were able to see a lot more in each port than the "do it yourselfs" who became frustrated with logistics...The "private tours", after paying entrance fees and buying lunches, generally ended up paying as much or more...and some of the guides were not really that good...

It really came down to "Did we enjoy the excursion or not?"--did we see "enough" to keep us happy and entertained? Did we have a good time? Generally, the answer was yes...

But, the main selling point on the ship's excursions was that we did not have to sweat ANY of the details or logistics...Everything was handled ahead of time, went off like clockwork and required little work of our own...

Of course, there are some major negatives in my book: One, you are not in control of the time or itinerary...so when you have an hour and a half allotted at some site and you're bored after half an hour, you just can't move on...You have to wait for everyone to get back on the bus...
...and also, and here's where I agree with Hank...Some of those tours contain completely unwarranted "shopping" stops at places not worthy of wasting time and likely with kickbacks to the tour company...Specifically, as a part of our Capri, Sorrento and Pompei tour, we had a completely without value stop at a Cameo Factory...it was at the end of our tour and we probably should have just gotten a taxi back to the ship...Of course, it did not take away from an otherwise outstanding shore excursion...The three main stops were handled with clockwork precision and all were allotted ample time--something private guides told us they could not do...Comparing notes with our "private guide" using freinds, we got a much better guided tour through Pompei where as their guide was only allowed by law to drop them at the front gates and wait...

We also had a worthless shopping stop in Athens at an overpriced souvenir store...

Most of the other shore excursions we were on in the Mediterranean didn't have such stops...

In the Baltic, our tours in St. Petersburg gave us some shopping time at an outdoor flea market and at the Red October Store...but these were what I considered to be worthwhile stops--not the scams like the Cameo factory...

All in all, though, there are good and bad points about BOTH ways of doing it...I would not look down my nose at anyone who prefers either method...Remember, we are not all looking for or expecting the same things out of our port visits...

Some folks want to cram in more, some don't care if they see a little less--they'll be back...

Some folks want to be taken around by themselves, others enjoy the camraderie of a big group (We're sending my parents on the Constellation to the Baltic on June 19 as a gift--we wanted to hire them private cars in St. Petersburg both days, my mom insisted they do the bus excursion thing--she LIKES the atmosphere and experience of touring with a larger group--we compromised and they're doing a day of each)...

Some folks are looking to save money where they can, to others, it's no big deal...

There is NO right way or wrong way to do this...

Summit, July 3, 2004: Alaska: 13 night cruisetour
Constellation, July 16, 2005: Northern Europe: 14 nights

[BJS]

[B]Bruin Steve [/B]Well said. There obviously are many many people who feel the way you do despite the over-whelming posts to the contrary on these boards.

[B]Hank[/B] I think it is wonderful that you are there, with all of your knowledge, to help others enjoy independent travel and that you still try to support "those that insist or need guided tours". I'm sure you are there also for those who prefer guided tours as their choice.

Future cruises:
9/04 Star Princess-Med.x2 Venice to Barcelona/ Barcelona to Rome
11/04 Dawn Princess-Southern Caribbean
Jan. 05 Diamond Princess-Mexican Riviera
July 05 Star Princess-Baltics
Aug. 05 Star Princess-Baltics
Past cruises:
04 HAL-Amsterdam-Alaska
04 Dawn Princess- Southern Caribbean x2
03 Grand Princess-W.Caribbean
03 Sun Princess -Mexico
03-Tahitian Princess-Tahiti/ Cook Islands
03 Royal Princess-x2 British Isles & Norwegian Fjords/ Iceland
03 Island Princess-Panama Canal
01 HAL Ryndam x 2-S. America San Diego to Valpariso/ & around Cape Horn to Rio
00 Sky Princess-China/Orient
79 Sitmar's Fairwind- Caribbean/Panama Canal

[Hlitner]

I certainly do agree that there are some folks (and some ports) for which a tour is the best solution. Going off on your own requires some degree of pre-trip homework, some spirit of adventure, reasonable "travel smarts," and in many cases, pretty good health and the ability to walk. The rewards for this work (to some of us its a pure labor of love) is that you get to go where you want, when you want, with who you want, and usually save quite a lot of money. The savings for four, on a typical 12 day Med itinerary can easily top $1000. To us, the best part of independent travel is that we will often do things, and go places, that are not included in any tour. My wife likes to say that she looks forward to when we are in our 80s and have to take tours because we will need lots of help, and will want to sleep on half the tour [smile]. And yes, we have actually taken a few tours over the years. Our general rule is to only take tours that do things that we cannot reasonbly do on our own!

Hank

[Marika]

Everyone has a valid point. Hank, for me it's exactly as you said, 'it's a pure labor of love'! We have also travelled to many corners of the world and I have only take 2 planned tours. One in Egypt where the transfer from the ship to Cairo was approx. a 3 hour drive through the desert and the other when I was travelling with my mother and we took the $20/pp drive of the Amalfi Coast (we took it because it was [I]only[/I]$20) whereas another couple took the local bus from Sorrento and back for 2Euro. When I was on our Trafalger trip with my mother in Italy, we did our own excursions, saved a lot of money and experienced much more. At the end of each day all would talk about their adventures and we always did more and had more fun then most of the others. Every day couples that were part of our group would ask if they could join us the following day. By day four we had our own little group going. Many times, the best guides I had were cabbies that spent the time taking us around, giving us tips and showing us the highlights, they are all proud of their city. I'd rather give them a big tip. Oh, we did take another tour, in Kyoto. We wanted a restful day so we booked a River Cruise Tour in the next town, it was only available in Japanese but we took it anyway, we had a riot!! I enjoy the adventure, getting off the beaten track and seeing life as the locals live it. My in-laws on the other hand, who cruise at least once a year, would be totally lost without the cruise tours. To each his own. I would also like to thank Hank and Mike for thier helpful and practical advise. You both have saved me many hours of research.

leave for Roma, 8 days prior to Millenium sailing [img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=008000&cdt=2004;7;1;18;20;00&timezone=GMT+0100[/img]

[ilovhywd]

Great discussion everyone!

To Vegas Jim: The attraction of the souvenir store on the way to Tulum was the immaculate bathrooms! The day we went, it had to be 110 degrees, and we all had had a full bottle of water on the ferry from Cozumel.

Ilene

Westerdam - Norway - 6/12/04
Crystal Harmony - Panama Canal - 11/7/04

[jhannah]

[img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I hear ya'!!!

'Vegas Jim

[Mike Andrews]

I would agree with Bruin Steve there is no right or wrong way to tour just the way that makes you feel comfortable.

[Aussie Gal]

I agree with both Bruin Steve and Hank as we have done both but prefer now to mainly do our own thing. Last year on our cruise from Copenhangen to Rome we did not do one ship excursion.

Saying that, this year we are going to three ports that we will be using the ships tours in the morning and then for the rest of the day go our own way. They are Nesebur, Odessa and Yalta and as there doesn't seem to be a lot of tourist infrastructure in these ports, we feel the ship's excursions are the way to go. I just feel we would not see as much if we tried to do the cities on our own and there doesn't seem to be any independent guides.

I think for each country or area you travel to, you need to weigh up what is best for you.

Jennie

The next cruise is always the best!

3RD OCTOBER, 2004 PRINSENDAM
[img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=228b22&cdt=2004;10;03;17;0;00&timezone=GMT+0100[/img]

[babylene]

The most wonderful thing about travel is the personal experience we each have ...the place, the people. Our favourite thing to do is stay in one place long enough to feel "at home". My husband likes to say that we are doing what the locals do.

Now, we have booked our first European cruise. We will have very little time in each port. In Scandinavia, we will probably take the ship's tour if it is a long tour (don't want to miss the boat!)Wherever possible, we will "do our own thing". I guess it will be a "mix & match". I am the family researcher and will have to study the situation. Of course, I hope to get some good ideas from other posters!

My motto in life is that "less is more". When friends tell me they love tours because they are given such detailed explanations, I ask them what they remember....you guessed the answer!

[ilovhywd]

On the other hand..... most of my correct Jeopardy answers are a result of my travel experiences, and many of those facts were learned from tour guides!

Ilene

Westerdam 6/12/04 Norway
Crystal Harmony 11/7/04 Panama Canal

[jhannah]

We have taken ship's tours and done our own as well. My general rule of thumb is that the farther from the ship our must-see attraction is, the more inclined I am to take the ship's tour. Another factor that enters in is the accessibility of public transportation. Where that is readily available and reliable, and the sites we want to visit are pretty well within sight distance from the pier, we head out on our own. As noted above, each way has its plusses and minuses.

'Vegas Jim

[MVPinBoynton]

I haven't met many tours I didn't like. In my opinion any of them are better than staying on the ship. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Last year in the Med was the first time we had done private tours. They saved us money and provided what I thought was a better experience and allowed us to see and experience more sights. We are taking 3 ship tours this year and they all look quite nice and in a couple cases the only alternative. The rest are private or on our own.

Mike


See our reviews and pictures at [url="http://www.thepreismans.com/"]Mike and Carol's Website[/url]

Costa Classica 3/94
Celebrity Mercury 4/98
Carnival Destiny 4/99
Crown Princess 7/01
Norwegian Star 11/01
Grand Princess 12/01
Sun Princess 3/02
Celebrity Constellation 11/02
Brilliance of the Seas 6/03
Navigator of the Seas 11/03
Jewel of the Seas 06/04
Tahitian Princess 02/05

[Bruin Steve]

Just one additional note:

In a way I resent the statements that for those who do the ports "on their own" it is a "labor of love"...That implies that for those who don't do things THEIR way, there is somehow, less value, less passion, less emotional investment.

I don't believe that to be true at all...

There are many people who do just as much research, just as much reading...who spend just as much time and effort and intellectual resolve ...and end up with ships' excursions or hired guides...There are people who do things "on their own" and just miss a lot of stuff and stumble into others...

ALL of us either have that love, that passion...or we don't...

I can remember back with incredible detail to every trip I have ever taken...even those on which I've relied on shore excursions...It amazes my wife when I remember back 23 years to where and what we ate in some foreign city on a particular day of our honeymoon...How else was I able to recreate exactly where we ate dinner in Venice and on Corfu for this last cruise?

I don't care if I've gotten to see whatever it is I've chosen to see by way of public bus, rental car, hired guide or shore excursion...I research all of my choices...and I make my choices...and it is all a "labor of love" for me as well...

And I have compared notes coming back to the ship from port with people who have done the ports by some method different than us...As a rule, we've missed some things or experiences that they've seen or had...and they have missed some that we've seen or had...

Not everyone who plans their own port experience gets more out of it that those who hire a guide or take a shore excursion...Some do their own thing and don't get a lot done...

OTOH, some guides are poor, some are exceptional...Some Shore Excursions turn out boring and mundane with too much wasted time...Others turn out exceptional and would be impossible to recreate on one's own...they cut both ways...

Sometimes you "do it yourself" and hit it right, other times you just don't...That cuts both ways as well...

What I just don't get are those who insist that only THEIR way of doing things is the correct way, that somehow they are superior inb knowledge and logistical approach...even when they really don't know the port they're visiting in detail...when they've never spent any time there before...NO amount of reading, research and scanning the internet in advance is going to make you an expert on places you don't know...

We can all give advice here, but it's from OUR limited experience...and it's based on our personal criteria...

And it's real hard to judge the personal experience of others and to determine that YOURS was superior...

Hank and the "do it yourselfers", I am sure that you've enjoyed your port experiences...but I doubt you can have any REAL sense that yours are necessarily superior to mine...

Summit, July 3, 2004: Alaska: 13 night cruisetour
Constellation, July 16, 2005: Northern Europe: 14 nights

[LynnSD]

I had to add a note of support for Bruin Steve's last post. I too hate it when it's implied that we take ship's tours because we're not ambitious enough to figure out a "better" way. We approach our trips like he described, decide what we want to see, and then figure out what is most efficient logistically and financially. Frankly, if we wanted to truly experience a country and its culture we would not choose a cruise.

We are also teachers and can only travel in the summer. Some places are going to be way too crowded at that time of year no matter how you get there. So another phrase I hate to see is "cattle call" --- we are all milling around Pompeii or Barcelona together whether or not we are on a tour. There's really no greater dignity in arriving via subway or hop-on bus than a tour bus.

BTW, we are going to Alaska the same time as you, Steve, on Princess. I'll be interested to hear how it goes. Thanks for letting me vent!!

[Hlitner]

Wow! After seeing some of the posts I had to go back and read all the prior posts. It almost seems like some are getting a bit defensive and I don't see the cause. I carefully said at the end of the original post ("Should passengers stop paying for tours? Or course not. But please be aware, educated, and carefully make your choices.") My 2nd post on this topic started with ("I certainly do agree that there are some folks (and some ports) for which a tour is the best solution.") I might add that on our upcoming Asian trip we are spending 8 nights on an organized tour in China. Personally, I do think that it takes more study and work to be independent for obvious reasons (try finding the road to St Paul de Vence without some advance planning). Lighten up folks. Its your vacation and you should do what works best for you! However, I do stand by the purpose of my original post which was to point out that many tours are starting to seem like "ripoffs." Can anyone explain why it can cost $35 per person for a 3 hour walking tour? One guide x 40 passengers would equal $1400. Not bad pay for 3 hours of walking and than they often expect tips [smile].

Hank

[LynnSD]

Personally, I start planning our next trip as soon as we get home, excursions included. We typically do a mix of different off-ship activities. We choose our itinerary based on what we will see and how we will manage to see it. Our previous cruises have all been in Europe, so lots of study and prep goes into deciding what we do. As Steve said, some walking tour guides are well worth the price. We did some Scala Reale walks in Rome that were lifetime experiences.
It is interesting planning Alaska because most of the private excursions are not that much cheaper than the ship, so we really had to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each.
As for being defensive, I'm not, but when we are told that tours are "groups of people being led around by the nose..." That doesn't aid the discussion.

[Laukland]

In 2002 we were in Saint Petersburg. We had a driver and a guide for two days at a cost of what one all day ships tour would have been. Our guide was excellent we even had several other persons "joining" our group to benefit from his information.

The lines scare you with the notion that if you are not on their tour and you are late you will be left.

Most of their tours are overpriced. But at the end of the day people make their choices and take their chances. I for one have benefited from both Bruin Steve and Hanks postings on this board. We learn from our varied experiences.

[Hlitner]

Ahhh. St Petersburg was a challenge but also quite rewarding. We wanted to get to Peterhof on our own, and decided to take the hydrofoil (across the street from the Hermitage). It turned out to be a delightful trip and we had a great time. The tours apparently went on buses, and we later heard it was a long ride and not much fun. We also decided to do the Hermitage on our own. We went on a Sunday morning and waited in line a few minutes before opening. We were approched by a man who spoke excellent English and was a licensed guide (he used to work inside). We hired him, and he got us through the ticket line with us only paying the rate for Russians (a few cents rather than the much higher foreign admission price). We spent several hours with this guide (he was great) and paid him $50. Since we were joined by another American who was in line (worked at the Moscow Embassy) we split the cost ($25 each). Our total cost was actually less than the normal admission price and the 3 of us had a private guide! Sometimes you just get lucky.

Hank

[Tania]

To tour or not to tour? It's a personal question, often dependant on travel logistics and your own knowledge and experience.

On our Princess cruises, we've taken a few tours. Overnight to Cairo and Ephesus come quickly to mind as the group leaders were better and more interesting than some of my university profs. Worth every penny!

We've rented a car in LeVerdon to tour the local wineries in Pauillac and Margaux, taken the local bus out to Blarney to visit the castle, and taken the train to Rouen out of LeHavre fo0r the day.

Our timeshare has enabled us to exchange for weeks in Paris, Venice, Rome and the Nice area so we are familiar with these areas. Therefore, on our next cruise, we'll be using local transport to revisit favourites and hopefully find new haunts.

I'm not keen on tours for two reasons: the cost and the time wasted getting everyone on and off the bus. But sometimes you gotta bite the bullet...

* Star Princess 07/04 * Grand Med
Diamond Princess 03/04 Mexican Riviera
Sun Princess 12/03 Southern Caribbean
Grand Princess 12/02 Western Caribbean
Royal Princess 08/02 Western Europe & Iberia
Ocean Princess 08/01 Alaska
Pacific Princess 12/00 Holy Land & Greek Isles
Carla C. 03/83 Southern Caribbean

[Mrs Seabird]

I like them all. We've done private tours in Athens, Rome, Naples, and St Petersburg. We've done it on our own in Copenhagen, Venice, Stockholm, Oslo, Barcelona and Tallin. We've done bus trips in Helsinki, London (Cotswolds), and Villefranche. They've all been great. I'm so thankful for all the options and would hate for any of them to disappear.