Chased off by Royal Caribbean & Celebrity

[mojo4trav]

Superclubs and Sandals are starting to look pretty good!

[atonal1]

Superclubs and Sandals are starting to look pretty good!

They may look good, but STILL costs MORE than a cruise!:rolleyes:

 

RCI is trying to save brick and mortar TAs, so they will educate the next generation of cruisers. This will all shake out soon, and it will be interesting to see how the frequent cruiser reacts.

 

Enjoy! Kel

Brick and Mortar agencies have survived the airlines cutting out commissions, and they will survive this. A full service T/A sells more than just cruises, and selling SuperClubs & Sandals is actually more lucrative.:)

[Idrive159]

Would the FTC be able to have authority over RCCL since they are "foreign" ships and are exempt from most of the "American" rules?

[Mark_K]

Would the FTC be able to have authority over RCCL since they are "foreign" ships and are exempt from most of the "American" rules?

Anybody who sells in the US has to follow US laws governing the selling process, what rules they're required to follow on the ships is a different issue.

[Knighton]

Superclubs and Sandals are starting to look pretty good!

The thing I liked about Sandals is that all alcoholic drinks and all activities, inculding scuba diving (which is expensive when you have to pay for it) and golf, are included in the price. :D

 

Ahh, wouldn't free alcohol and a choice of an activity in every port included in the cruise price be nice? As it stands, you not only have to shop around for cruise prices, you also need to figure out how much you'll be spending on shore excursions. Had we not found ways to do 5 of the 7 Mediterranean ports ourselves using public transportation, we'd have spent at least $800 on excursions alone. Of course even that would be fine if the shore excursions did exactly what we want to do, instead of time wasting stuff like "tours" (read:sales pitches) at cameo factories and taking along a ships photographer and making everyone wait around while he got a picture of everyone in front of a famous landmark. I mean, how can you run a tour to the leaning tower of Pisa where the tour information says you won't have time to actually go up in the tower?? I'll bet the photographer will have plenty of time to take your picture in front of it and then try to sell it to you for $10 in the photo shop.:rolleyes:

 

Maybe this is the kind of stuff RCCL needs to start looking at if business starts falling off.

[CGTNORMANDIE]

I agree with NY MIKE. I think the FTC is going to consider this "a restraint of trade". All the major lines are traded on various US stock exchanges and they are subject to FTC rules. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

I do not believe this is being done "to save the brick and mortar TAs". I believe that this is a prelude to protect the lines themselves. Many pax are finding out that they can save real $$ by dealing with the TA. In the past, the TAs were helping the various cruise lines to grow. Now the lines enjoy a brisk business of "newbies" who call the lines directly for reservations...not knowing that they can save 10% or more with a TA. With the advent of the Web TAs comes real competition with the cruise lines. The lines feel they are being beaten at their own game so they want to limit the competition and maximize profits. The net result of all of this is that you can call the line directly and get the same price the TA will quote you.

 

ROSS

[smeyer418]

you don't think RCCL has lawyers? This isn't a restraint of trade....There are still many cruise lines to chose from and there has been no apparent agreement between the cruise lines. Telling your agent how much they can charge is perfectly legal. If you look at another thread they have excluded resales from this policy. This because once you agree to allow someone to resale as opposed to book as an agent you can't contol that price. I agree the intent(IMO) is against the bricks and mortar people evidentually but I have no inside info on that. I would expect a fairly fast response from the FTC which will say..

 

absent proof of collusion among seperately owned cruise lines, telling an agent what price they can book cruises for the cruise line is not an anti-trust violation...

 

An agreement among cruise lines to prohibit selling rooms for resale would also be in violation of the anti-trust laws.

[Brneyznfl]

So what you are saying is you only book a cruise if it is cheap. Well good luck with NCL just watch out for the hidden charges once you get on board. There is a 10.00pp per day non refundable charge. Carnival is going to start the same thing soon. They already have the same pricing for everyone at least with RCI they give special rates to their top producing agencies.

I'm just curious because I can't find anything out about this, but where did you get your information that Carnival is soon going to be starting a 10.00 per person non refundable service charge per day? Thanks. :)

[CGTNORMANDIE]

HI SMEYER,

 

We agree to disagree...I think that RCI has no right whatsoever to tell an agent what they can charge or can't charge. If the agent were employed directly by the cruise line it would be different. An agent is just that...an independent contractor used by the cruise line. I predict the FTC will not allow this practice as it abolishes pricing competition in the market place. You must also remember that the cruise lines have consolidated in recent years. In effect...they have formed an oligopoly of 3 or 4 major players in the industry. You can bet your last dollar that Uncle Sam will be looking at this one very closely. The name of the game here is pricing competition. This bold move by RCI is nothing more than the unwritten policy of every major cruise line, "FULL GREED AHEAD"!!!

 

If these power plays of "Squeeze the Passengers" continues I am going to take my business elsewhere. Mediteranian Shipping Company, MSC, is about to enter the premium arena...You can bet that they will be using TAs to there best advantage and that will not include price fixing.

 

If the major cruise lines want to continue doing business in the USA they will have to conform to the rules of trade. It will be interesting to see how this will play out. I do not think you have heard the last on this subject...not by a long shot.

 

ROSS

[Mark_K]

CGTNORMANDIE,

 

 

"I think that RCI has no right whatsoever to tell an agent what they can charge or can't charge."

 

 

The courts have consistently ruled that airlines can tell travel agents what they can charge for airline tickets. Why would it be different for cruiseline tickets?

 

 

Also, Oceania Cruises has had a similar policy in place since last year without legal repercussions. Why would that be if it's illegal?

[smeyer418]

Ross:

 

Its always ok to disagree When a travel agency(wholesaler) buys a block of rooms the cruise line can't tell them at what price to resell. When a ta merely is the order taker for the principal, the cruise line. they can tell them they can't rebate the commission and at what price the cruise line will accept the booking. In the first case both the cruiseline and the wholesaler are acting as principals, independent parties and an agreement on what the reseller-the wholesaler will sell is an antitrust violation. In the second case the only principal is the cruise line one party-no anti trust issue. This wouldn't hold true if two cruise lines agree that there will be no rebating because that would be an agreement in collosion with another party and a violation. I hope you see the differences.

 

You may also want to look at the FTC website cause they have a really interesting discussion as to why they allowed the last cruise line merger. They determined(not me) that it would not create a "douoply" among Carnival and RCCL.

[PappaSiera]

I can tell you that in my line of bussiness, we have Agents and Resellers. We can not legally tell a reseller who, where or how much they can sell our product for, but we can and do tell them who, where, and what the price will be. In fact, we set the price for all products that are being sold as an agent, including the Agents service charges. There is a BIG difference between dealing with a reseller (INDEPENDANT dealer) of a product/service and a Agent of the primary (effectively a salesperson for the primary).

[awatt]

So smeyer,then it would be worthwhile to find out which entities are resellers? And how would you do so?

 

My TA is a wholesaler. Does this mean reseller?

 

Thanks for all the info,it's helping clear up my confusion.

[Mark_K]

So smeyer,then it would be worthwhile to find out which entities are resellers? And how would you do so?

 

My TA is a wholesaler. Does this mean reseller?

 

Thanks for all the info,it's helping clear up my confusion.

Lots of TA's are actually both, depending on the circumstances. Generally, if the TA buys (or reserves) a block of rooms, then resells out of that block they're a reseller. If they offer you an individual booking out of RCI's stock of available rooms, they're acting as an agent.

[awatt]

Thanks. I will ask him exactly that,

[smeyer418]

that's why this just is not going to mean that much unless they cut back on wholesaling blocks of rooms...

[CGTNORMANDIE]

HI MARK AND SMEYER,

 

Your point about airlines is well taken, however, didn't the airlines finally have to tell the TAs that they were not going to pay a commission anymore??? The basic argument about airlines is that there are many airlines so a free market exists...Not so with the cruise lines.

 

My point is this: The cruiselines have bought up the competition and are now an oligopoly.

Oligopoly: A market condition in which the sellers are so few that the actions of any one of them will materially affect the price and hence have a measurable impact upon the competitors. (Therefore yielding above normal profits for the one. RB)

 

Smeyer brings up an excellent point as to how the government dicided that a merger for Carnival would not affect the cruise market. The merger might have met the criteria at the time but it also created an oligopoly after the fact.

 

My summation: If there is an oligopoly (In my oppinion there certainly is.) then the actions of the one will create price concessions in favor of RCI, therefore, making their unilateral policy illegal...We shall see.

 

ROSS

[Mark_K]

CGTNORMANDIE,

 

"didn't the airlines finally have to tell the TAs that they were not going to pay a commission anymore???"

 

They quit, by and large, but because of market pressures not legal issues.

 

Two additional issues you're neglecting....

 

The TA's are acting as agents of the cruiseline, not independent resellers of merchandise.

 

It's been establsihed law for like 80 years that a company has the right to refuse to conduct business with anyone who doesn't abide by the company's policies, including pricing.

[Pistachio42]

RCI has instituted this policy and Carnival (how convenient) will do similar at the end of the year (oh yea .. they independently came up with this .. right? .. got no advise to institute policy changes separated by a few months). How much of the cruise business in passenger days or gross dollars do these two corporations control RC, Celebrity, Carnival, Holland America, Cunard, Costa, Princess, other?But in the final analyis .. legal, smegal .. just vote with your feet .. take your business elsewhere .. on the sea or on the land. And if the brick & mortar TAs have pushed for this, then bypass as many of them as you can as well.

[mojo4trav]

Brick and Mortar TA's haven't received ANY of my business in YEARS. Sadly, their time is nearing the end.

[imsulin]

Gee, mojo4trav!! Our "brick & mortar" agency has been receiving large volumes of business for years, including leisure, business, corporate, and government contracts! I would say that it is the overcrowded and fiercely competitive internet market that will be coming to an end, and only leaving the agencies who have been proven, and are willing to receive lower commissions. Our agency still has contracts for higher than the standard 10% commission, which I have always passed on to my clients in the form of cash, personal check, or shipboard credit...whatever they choose.

Oh, and, Pistachio42...the B&M agencies did not push for this! It would be nice if those of you who complain knew the real intricacies of the business before yahooing about it. We were as surprised as anyone else, but have always followed the cruise lines restrictions about advertising. Their advertising policies have been in our contracts for years. It's the on-line agencies that advertised discount rates....as you know. THAT'S what the cruise lines don't like!~ I think you can expect the major cruise lines to follow suit, barring the intervention of legalities, and no one can predict that. Good point, Mark_K. I just think it would be really nice if those who "rant and rave" knew the fine points. There's a lot to this story, and automatic assumptions about, "Well, if XYZ cruise line is going to do this to us, WE will NOT book them again!" Thanks.

[reggierail]

I agree with what the others have posted..... BUT there is not a price change or hike in the world that could MAKE me go to NCL........ :eek:

Wait it out UNLESS you have to book now,,,,, things ALWAYS change.........:D

 

My first NCL cruise will most likely be my last. I'll stick with Celebrity and RCCL, but will try Carnival and Princess some day.

 

Reggie

[mojo4trav]

Gee, mojo4trav!! Our "brick & mortar" agency has been receiving large volumes of business for years, including leisure, business, corporate, and government contracts! I would say that it is the overcrowded and fiercely competitive internet market that will be coming to an end, and only leaving the agencies who have been proven, and are willing to receive lower commissions.

A number of years ago I found that I was more than capable of spending the time and effort to research and book my own travel arrangements. In fact, I really enjoy the process and do this for family members when asked. I haven't run into too many situations where I couldn't book a lower price via online agency or direct with the company. I can see where a company (RCI) would want to dictate pricing; especially since the online agencies cater only to a small percentage of those who cruise. In many cases, as mentioned elsewhere, the cruiselines need B&M agencies to present their product and 'convert' vacationers to the cruising world. Until cruising receives a market share they are satisfied with, in comparisson to other vacation options, they must maintain this relationship with the B&M agencies. Ultimately when an acceptable percentage of the market is secured I forsee the cruiselines reverting to a no-commission product, therby encouraging cruisers to book direct. Once again, as with the change in airline commissions, TA's will be forced to sell add-ons to produce their commissions. Fewer and fewer younger travelers, who will someday make up the majority of the traveling public as they age, look to B&M agencies for their travel needs.

 

I just see this as the evolution of travel in general, as companies seek to maximize revenues any way they can.

 

Our agency still has contracts for higher than the standard 10% commission, which I have always passed on to my clients in the form of cash, personal check, or shipboard credit...whatever they choose.

Isn't this type of rebating now against RCI's policy? :confused: