HAL Formaly introduces "as you wish dining"

[berryberry]

While you have every right to enjoy a product that you prefer, that doens't make it correct that everyone should be forced to enjoy the same product or that all products should necessarily be the same.

 

People have a choice to enjoy what they desire. HAL has decided that the majority of people desire more flexibility in dining. I applaud them for that. Thats my point. Alas, some folks (obviously in HAL's opinion, a small minority) want to resist all changes. They are free to do so but that doesn't make HAL's decision wrong or foolhardy. Perhaps it just means those resistant to change are wrong or foolhardy.

 

Only time and the market will tell

[RevNeal]

So now you are a mindreader?

 

Fact is for everyone upset over this change, there are likely many new to HAL cruisers it will attract. So if some folks say goodbye to HAL because of this, they will easily be replaced

 

I believe I read somewhere that HALs prices out of NY are up to 30% cheaper than NCL for a similiar cruise. Assuming this is true - why is that? I am sure demand for a more flexible cruise (ie anytime dining, relaxed dress, etc) is a big part of it

 

I'm not a mind reader, I'm just really good at reading what people actually write, as well as what is written between the lines. For instance, your remarks indicate that you actually intend to offend.

 

As for why the NY prices are 30% cheaper than NCL for a similar cruise ... well, it's probably because HAL is having trouble filling the Noordam on those itineraries due to a decline in their traditional clientele, said decline being due to HAL's dumping of its traditions along with its loyal passenger base. Since the Line isn't picking up sufficient numbers of cheap, once-a-decade cruisers to replace their losses among their formerly-loyal, high-dollar, 4/5/6-cruise-a-year cruisers, they're having to discount the ship to try and fill those cabins.

[RevNeal]

C'est La Vie..... like I said anytime you need dining companions...

 

Thank you so much! I look forward to the day when we're on the same damship. :D

[RevNeal]

Hey Greg, Brian & Ruth,

 

Hope all is well. Good times bumping into you all on the lovely Noordam last January. Never did have that lunch Greg, look forward to it on some other HAL vessel soon.

 

Now on the As You Wish Dining thing, I think it's idiotic. The whole appeal of cruising with traditional dining is the wonderful friendships that we forge. We always ask for a table of eight and end up meeting some wonderful people and look forward to recounting our daily adventures with them.

 

Once the As You Wish Wand has cast its evil spell completely all those grand experiences will disappear like a puff of smoke from the funnel.

 

What is this talk of "Old Timers" like we're a decrepit bunch of relics from some antiquated age. Hey, they got rid of portholes a while back we're okay with that. We simply want to enjoy the company of new traveling companions in the elegant and unique atmosphere that is shipboard travel and traditional dining.

 

But, Nooo..CCL has to march in and gradually dismantle all of the things that make HAL so dear to us, dress codes, dining structure. They step in and reconfigure all of the spirit out of each line until it's just a bland version of its former self, a theme park ride.

 

The other guys have their Freestyle dining, just let HAL continue to flourish as the grand line it has been for over a century. We Old Timers would prefer it that way.

 

Thanks, Jonathan. I appreciate it and look forward to that rain check at some point in the future. :) Wish I were joining you for that Transatlantic you're taking next!! But, time won't allow.

 

As for the "old timers" quip ... it's the poster's juvenile attempt to get our goad.

[fcorey]

1. I am not holding out NCL as a be all and end all. I have no allegiance to any particular line like some folks here do. That said, it is hard to compare NCL as a business with CCL just given CCL's size. NCL has an uphill road to hoe as the underdog in the business

Suffice to say they have lots of "issues" , however they cast the first stone in the "freestyle" market and financially arent doing as well as I'd expect. I think that the Olds arguement fits CCL, they have lots of products and putting them in direct competition with each other may not be such a good thing long term.

 

2. Again - never said EVERYONE wants anytime dining - but a vast MAJORITY do. Its why you see the trend occuring on line after line after line

 

I think that time will tell on this one. As I said before I think its a good option to have if implemented properly. But I still would like the option to book traditional seating if I so choose.

 

3. As to HAL's repeat cruiser rate - that may be the case (although I would be curious to see the same %'s from other carriers) but if HAL's customer base continues to age (and you will surely admit that they do have a much larger % of elderly passengers who probably make up a big portion of that repeat % base) obviously a problem will occur when this oldsters die off unless HAL attracts a new generation of cruisers - which they won't do by not changing with the times

 

 

CCL's repeat rate is in the high 30's - low 40's based on the last thing I read. As far as oldsters dieing off... I am part of that new generation, I'm in my 30's, my wife HATED CCL. WHen it came down to talking her into another cruise, HAL, X, and Princess were the only three she would even consider. We are not bothered by formal nights or traditional seating. They arent something seek out, but they are not somethign we'd avoid.

 

As I said before I think that HAL is too large for their market niche. Sooner or later they are going to have to deal with it. CCL should focus on getting HAL a new image, and focusing the line to a more upscale market, thats what their ships are suited to. Right now they price battle with fellow CCL lines which is just stupid. CCL has the ability to have lines in all segments of the market and they arent really doing it.

[berryberry]

I'm not a mind reader, I'm just really good at reading what people actually write, as well as what is written between the lines. For instance, your remarks indicate that you actually intend to offend.

 

As for why the NY prices are 30% cheaper than NCL for a similar cruise ... well, it's probably because HAL is having trouble filling the Noordam on those itineraries due to a decline in their traditional clientele, said decline being due to HAL's dumping of its traditions along with its loyal passenger base. Since the Line isn't picking up sufficient numbers of cheap, once-a-decade cruisers to replace their losses among their formerly-loyal, high-dollar, 4/5/6-cruise-a-year cruisers, they're having to discount the ship to try and fill those cabins.

 

 

Oh puhleeze - because you disagree with me you try to read into my posts something that isn't there. Given that the person I responded to has written a couple further posts debating the issue hasn't taken exception to my point, I don't know why you are trying to. Especially since any objective (ie not a HAL club regular here) observer would see a ton of snide remarks in your comments to me .

 

And your excuse as to the lower pricing gives me a chuckle. Anything to try and justify your misguided view. Ever consider HAL's prices are lower due to lack of demand because of its lack of dining choice, lack of flexible dress, etc. which makes NCL product more attractive where they can charge a premium to HAL in the NY market on those trips. HAL is not attracting the next generation of cruisers and has recognized it needs to change to do so. HAL can't survive on the "old time refuse to change traditionalists". contrary to your belief

[RevNeal]

3. As to HAL's repeat cruiser rate - that may be the case (although I would be curious to see the same %'s from other carriers) but if HAL's customer base continues to age (and you will surely admit that they do have a much larger % of elderly passengers who probably make up a big portion of that repeat % base) obviously a problem will occur when this oldsters die off unless HAL attracts a new generation of cruisers - which they won't do by not changing with the times

 

Let's see ... HAL has the highest repeat-passenger rate in the industry. That's been true for a long time, and it's still true today EVEN THOUGH the percentage is falling due (largely) to dissatisfaction among those very passengers.

 

As for the dying off of those loyal passengers ... ah, yes, the big boogie man that keeps being bantered around. True, people do die ... but the assumption is that there are not new passengers joining the loyal passenger base who LIKE the traditions and have chosen HAL precisely BECAUSE of those traditions. I'm a case in point. Despite your pejorative labels, I'm not an "old timer." Many of my friends are NOT "old timers." Indeed, many of my fellow HAL loyalists are neither chronologically old nor long-time cruisers of HAL. The assumption that the only new people will be those who want to jettison the traditions is ill founded.

[berryberry]

Suffice to say they have lots of "issues" , however they cast the first stone in the "freestyle" market and financially arent doing as well as I'd expect.

 

I agree with you - they have a number of issues,, but IMO, freestyle has helped NCL stay competitive. Without it I think they would have died a slow death already

 

 

CCL's repeat rate is in the high 30's - low 40's based on the last thing I read. As far as oldsters dieing off... I am part of that new generation, I'm in my 30's, my wife HATED CCL. WHen it came down to talking her into another cruise, HAL, X, and Princess were the only three she would even consider. We are not bothered by formal nights or traditional seating. They arent something seek out, but they are not somethign we'd avoid.

 

 

That doesn't surprise me about CCL's rate - My guess is a lot of first time cruisers choose CCL and while a decent % return, some may never cruise again which could deflate their %. But withot more info thats impossible to know. I think the more interesting stat to look at would be what % of cruisers switch lines and why. Alas, that would be difficult to obtain.

 

As part of the new generation of cruisers, I find intriguing your comment that "We are not bothered by formal nights or traditional seating. They arent something seek out, but they are not somethign we'd avoid". This helps prove my point that you aren't choosing HAL BECAUSE of traditional seating and formal nights. You don't mind them but it isn't your reason for choosing HAL. Extend that now to others who also don't seek out traditional dining and formal nights. Perhaps they choose other lines BECAUSE these lines offer alternatives. Sure, maybe some could live with it like you do and go on HAL - but why if it isn't something they seek out and other alternatives exist. These are the people HAL needs to capture and will only do so by providing the other alternatives

[fcorey]

And your excuse as to the lower pricing gives me a chuckle. Anything to try and justify your misguided view. Ever consider HAL's prices are lower due to lack of demand because of its lack of dining choice, lack of flexible dress, etc. which makes NCL product more attractive where they can charge a premium to HAL in the NY market on those trips. HAL is not attracting the next generation of cruisers and has recognized it needs to change to do so. HAL can't survive on the "old time refuse to change traditionalists". contrary to your belief

 

Actually I think that you are both wrong here. The only times that there are considerable discounts on those sailings are during the lulls in peak traffic. Meaning between the holiday weeks, spring breaks etc. Also lets not forget that a 10-11 day cruise is actually a harder sell than a 7 day. Taking kids out of school is a pain. Some people dont like sea days, etc etc, lots of excuses there. The NCL ship is newer, not that Noordam is ancient, but a Eurodam sailing to same itinerary as a Vista is going to cost more, newer ship, higher demand. The TA for the group cruise told me that. A balcony room on NCL Pearl is 2X HAL, and 50% more than Cunard for a January 10day sailing

[fcorey]

As part of the new generation of cruisers, I find intriguing your comment that "We are not bothered by formal nights or traditional seating. They aren't something seek out, but they are not something we'd avoid". This helps prove my point that you aren't choosing HAL BECAUSE of traditional seating and formal nights. You don't mind them but it isn't your reason for choosing HAL. Extend that now to others who also don't seek out traditional dining and formal nights. Perhaps they choose other lines BECAUSE these lines offer alternatives. Sure, maybe some could live with it like you do and go on HAL - but why if it isn't something they seek out and other alternatives exist. These are the people HAL needs to capture and will only do so by providing the other alternatives

 

Yes and no, we chose HAL because of its more "elegant" or "classic" atmosphere so I guess the formal night falls into that. Same things we like about HAL applied to other lines like X and Cunard. They just didn't have itineraries that I like at the time we had to travel. If I were looking for something more formal them I'd cruise Cunard or a luxury line, I am lucky, I can afford to do that, HAL is a good value and balance of the things we were looking for. I have to admit I like the traditional dining on HAL because we have other choices, Lido, Pinnacle, room service, as well as the dining room. For that reason I never felt limited by the traditional seating. I enjoy meeting new people as table mates, but I haven't had bad table mates yet...so you can ask me again afterward I guess. However having the same waiter and stewards is something that I do really like and wouldn't have though of until this thread mushroomed with the pros an cons passed back and forth.

 

Well its very late for me, or should I say early, so I bid you all good evening, nice talking to you all

[Cruise Gypsy]

We prefer open seating dining. I am always confused why people who want Traditional dining are so against any introduction of open seating. There are pro and cons of both but why shouldn't the option be available?:confused:

 

I have faith the HAL will be able to implement As You Wish dining fleet wide and maintain their service standards.:)

[RevNeal]

Oh puhleeze - because you disagree with me you try to read into my posts something that isn't there. Given that the person I responded to has written a couple further posts debating the issue hasn't taken exception to my point, I don't know why you are trying to. Especially since any objective (ie not a HAL club regular here) observer would see a ton of snide remarks in your comments to me .

 

All I have to do is read what you write, and the way you phrase your statements: the terms you use, the labels you apply, the absolute assertions of claims-as-fact ... I could go on. As for snide remarks on my part ... granted. There is hostility on this thread, and that is unfortunate. However, I'm not dancing a jig while other people are being hurt. You ARE.

 

And your excuse as to the lower pricing gives me a chuckle. Anything to try and justify your misguided view. Ever consider HAL's prices are lower due to lack of demand because of its lack of dining choice, lack of flexible dress, etc. which makes NCL product more attractive where they can charge a premium to HAL in the NY market on those trips. HAL is not attracting the next generation of cruisers and has recognized it needs to change to do so. HAL can't survive on the "old time refuse to change traditionalists". contrary to your belief

 

I'm not the one taking satisfaction that others are being displaced from their Cruise Line of choice over this change. I'm not the one who has been so callous as to state that he doesn't care that other people are hurting because of this change. You come here and flaunt your joy over this change, and then you proceed to rub our noses in your joy and in our discomfort and dissatisfaction. And you have the unmitigated gall to call me "misguided?" Gee ...

[dougnewmanatsea]

I keep coming back to the GM parallel: GM did great business as the #1 US automaker when the 6 different divisions had clearly differentiated product lines to appeal to very different buyers

You certainly have a point to some extent - I still think there is not enough differentiation between the major North American market cruise lines. At this particular moment in time, the cruise industry happens to be so successful that they have no problem filling all the berths anyway, but I suspect brand differentiation may be a problem sometime down the road.

 

That said, it would be wrong to blame the downward spiral of the US auto industry solely on the fact that nobody could figure out what the difference was between a Pontiac and an Oldsmobile. A very key element was the fact that in the post-war years foreign competition slowly but surely was mounting, first with Volkswagen, then with the early Japanese models (all of which didn't do much damage to Detroit at all) and then boom!, the foreigners had their big break with the '70s fuel crises which let them leverage their experience building small cars to gain a real foothold in the US market and become more and more serious competition for the US Big Three.

 

A lot of people seem to like to think that Carnival is GM, but if Carnival's future now is the same that GM's future was in, say, 1970 (when GM was still hugely successful but about to gradually become less and less so for 35 years until suddenly there was a serious problem), what's going to play the role of the fuel crises, and what's going to play the role of Toyota and Honda who took away so many sales from GM?

 

Since the cruise business isn't as essential as the auto business, it would hard to imagine something of fuel-crisis magnitude opening up a new market niche for new cruise lines... More likely, people would just stop cruising (something easier to do for most than stopping driving). And anyway, where are the new cruise lines? I don't see anybody approximating a Toyota or a Honda to Carnival's GM.

 

And so I have to ask, does anyone know where GM would be if there were no fuel crises in the '70s and no other real competition beyond Ford and Chrysler? Take those away and leave just lack of brand differentiation, and I really don't think GM would be in the shape it's in today.

 

The way I see it, the biggest problem for GM was that it was no longer able - not any of its brands, differentiated or otherwise - to provide the public with what it wanted. Others came along and fulfilled the public's wishes better. GM could not change quickly enough to meet the public's desires. Say what you will but I don't think anyone could argue that GM would still be successful today if only it had stayed the same. So I'm unsure if the GM analogy is really the right one here.

 

Ah Yes, GM, Ford and Chrysler also had MBA's and Focus Groups and Surveys telling them what they thought the general public wanted too...

This is true, but that doesn't mean that all those things are useless.

 

After all, all companies need to do their best to provide what their customers want. And how are they supposed to figure this out? They have to at least try.

 

To me it would be very irresponsible for a company to go and say "well, we know we can never exactly know what the market wants, so we'll just forget it and keep producing the same thing and hope the market keeps wanting it".

 

All companies have to do what, in their best judgment, the market demands. Sometimes they can be very wrong in their predictions. But the other alternative is turning their backs completely on market desires and that seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

the more friends I make here and aboard ship, the more I find I WANT to cruise with them ...and only with them.

I have two words for you: PRIVATE YACHT :D !

 

It would be a horrible shame if, after saving HAL and expanding the line tremendously, CCL then destroyed HAL by homogenizing it with all the other Lines in the CCL family.

Ah I was waiting for this - I'm surprised it's taken this long for it to come in.

 

It's true that the different brands are more and more homogenized but I have to ask, was the difference between Princess and HAL bigger 20 years ago? Quite frankly, I don't think so! In fact it was probably smaller, since they were direct competitors.

 

If there is a lack of brand differentiation at Carnival, it comes not from central dictate that says "you must all be the same" but from the lines independently reaching the same conclusions because they are just inherently too similar.

 

However I will say this as you keep touting NCL, they lost $116M dollars in Q4

While this is true, it has absolutely nothing to do with Freestyle.

 

NCL is losing money for one reason and one reason only, and that's their little Hawaiian misadventure. In fact, if you don't count NCL's US-flag ships, the company is profitable. It's just that NCL America is so unprofitable that it cancels out the rest of NCL's profits.

 

It's true that NCL made a mistake, but Freestyle certainly wasn't it. In fact Freestyle had a big hand in saving NCL from oblivion since before Freestyle came along, NCL had very little to differentiate itself from far stronger competitors.

 

Indeed Frank, I understand that HAL's repeat rate has dropped from approx 68% to 61% over the past year alone.

I doubt HAL sees that as a problem.

 

HAL can't possibly grow by depending solely on repeat passengers. To me it goes without saying that as the company gets bigger, its repeat passenger rate will go down.

 

Also, a 7 percentage point change may look big but I have no idea how volatile the repeat passenger rate is from year to year. In some things a change of 1 percentage point is big, in other things changes of 10 or 15 percentage points aren't worth noting.

 

CCL has to march in and gradually dismantle all of the things that make HAL so dear to us, dress codes, dining structure.

Unfortunately as I pointed out above, this is undoubtedly a decision made by HAL. It has nothing at all to do with Carnival.

 

Believe me, Micky Arison and Carnival Corporation & plc management really couldn't care less about dress codes or dining arrangements. With a huge, sprawling empire to run, this sort of thing is small potatoes. Like all details of each brand's product, it's left entirely up to the individual brand.

 

Also keep in mind that Carnival Cruise Lines itself still has traditional dining...

 

CCL's repeat rate is in the high 30's - low 40's based on the last thing I read.

And yet, CCL is the most profitable cruise line ever. Which makes me wonder how important this is.

 

Long-time HAL repeaters booking long and/or many cruises each year are probably the least profitable passengers on HAL. I imagine that if anything, HAL would like to reduce its dependency on them.

 

Don't underestimate the extent to which on-board spend affects cruise line profitability. First-time and/or infrequent cruisers tend to spend more than anyone else, and short cruise passengers spend more per day than long cruise passengers.

 

This is why (despite the lack of publicly available specifics) it goes without saying that Carnival is more profitable than HAL. And as for small niche lines, just look at Windstar and Swan Hellenic... They simply don't make enough money for a giant like Carnival to be bothered.

[berryberry]

Let's see ... HAL has the highest repeat-passenger rate in the industry. That's been true for a long time, and it's still true today EVEN THOUGH the percentage is falling due (largely) to dissatisfaction among those very passengers.

 

As for the dying off of those loyal passengers ... ah, yes, the big boogie man that keeps being bantered around. True, people do die ... but the assumption is that there are not new passengers joining the loyal passenger base who LIKE the traditions and have chosen HAL precisely BECAUSE of those traditions. I'm a case in point. Despite your pejorative labels, I'm not an "old timer." Many of my friends are NOT "old timers." Indeed, many of my fellow HAL loyalists are neither chronologically old nor long-time cruisers of HAL. The assumption that the only new people will be those who want to jettison the traditions is ill founded.

 

Again - I NEVER said everyone doesn't like the old traditions. However, the majority of cruisers seem to prefer greater choice in dining / dress / etc as evidenced by the continuing changes in the cruise industry. Sure HAL could never change, and still attract younger people who like the old style traditions to replace the older cruisers who die off. But obviously, one could argue they haven't been attracting them in significant numbers as evidenced by their decining repeat pax % and their recognizing the need to change.

 

Finally - just how is that repeat factor calculated. Is it an annual one or an overall one. Because assuming a repeat cruiser is somone who has sailed twice or more on the same line, then you and all your loyalist buddies here are already in that number and what you do will never change it. And by going down, it means new people who try HAL make a decision not to return - probably because they are dissatisified - and HAL has apparntly determined one reason is the lack of flexibility in dining. If however its an annual repeat rate (I would like a link showing this) then perhaps part could be to some dissatisfaction by some old timers - but a portion could also result from peopl new to HAL not returning because of their dissatifaction (over lack of dining choice , etc)

[RevNeal]

Actually I think that you are both wrong here. The only times that there are considerable discounts on those sailings are during the lulls in peak traffic. Meaning between the holiday weeks, spring breaks etc. Also lets not forget that a 10-11 day cruise is actually a harder sell than a 7 day. Taking kids out of school is a pain. Some people dont like sea days, etc etc, lots of excuses there. The NCL ship is newer, not that Noordam is ancient, but a Eurodam sailing to same itinerary as a Vista is going to cost more, newer ship, higher demand. The TA for the group cruise told me that. A balcony room on NCL Pearl is 2X HAL, and 50% more than Cunard for a January 10day sailing

 

You are correct in that many of the difficulties in filling the ship have more to do with factors other than what I cited. Back when school was out I seem to remember the prices on the Noordam where HIGH, and reports from the ship indicated that the vessel was crammed with families and children. In off-peek season HAL discounts the ship more to sell cabins. I took advantage of that this past January, and had a wonderful time.

[berryberry]

I enjoy meeting new people as table mates, but I haven't had bad table mates yet...so you can ask me again afterward I guess.

 

Trust me - once you have bad table mates (and we have had them) you will really understand at least part of the appeal of anytime dining.

 

We are just recently back from a NCL cruise to Bermuda - and while we shared a table one day, most of the other days it was just the three of us. Our family enjoyed each other - no forced small talk with strangers, no crappy table mates, etc. Go when you want to - not when the ship tells you to. Pick the restaurant. Choice is really quite great when you try it

[RevNeal]

We prefer open seating dining. I am always confused why people who want Traditional dining are so against any introduction of open seating. There are pro and cons of both but why shouldn't the option be available?:confused:

 

I have faith the HAL will be able to implement As You Wish dining fleet wide and maintain their service standards.:)

 

I appreciate your viewpoint, Cruise Gypsy. It's not the very idea of "open seating," it's the fear that HAL will fumble the implementation and do away with the option for Traditional style altogether. I'm not bothered by the open option being available, just so long as I can be assured that I can have Traditional style. If wait-listing or other such limitations cause me to be unsure as to what I'll get when I board the ship, I'll fret. I like to KNOW what I'm buying. I've bought the HAL product because it has given me the comfort of knowing I'll get a traditional cruise experience ... but with this change, and with no assurance of being able to actually get Traditional Dining, that comfort is gone. If it happens too often, I'll be gone too.

[berryberry]

I'm not the one taking satisfaction that others are being displaced from their Cruise Line of choice over this change. I'm not the one who has been so callous as to state that he doesn't care that other people are hurting because of this change. You come here and flaunt your joy over this change, and then you proceed to rub our noses in your joy and in our discomfort and dissatisfaction. And you have the unmitigated gall to call me "misguided?" Gee ...

 

Who is displacing you? no one. You can adopt to the changes. If you don't like them and choose ON YOUR OWN to leave, well thats your own personal choice and decision

 

And as I said before - Am I glad that HAL has made this change - YES.

 

Will it encourage me to give HAL more consideration next time I book a cruise - YES

 

Does it bother me that some old timers are upset over the change - to be honest, NO. Just as you and others could have cared less that I and others prefer choice in dining, relaxed dress codes, etc I am not going to be all weepy eyed for your / their dismay over this change.

 

Fact is - you would callously prefer HAL didn't change to appeal to what the majority of people want and you would prefer the majority be dissatisifed . You are no different than I - only on the opposite side of the issue

[berryberry]

 

Doug - an excellent post. You put into words a lot of what I was trying to get across far better than I did. Kudos

 

And your point about repeat passengers on lengthy cruises not being the most profitable I think is right on. As one can glean from their annual reports, a big portion of revenue is generated from on-board actitivies where the gross margin is very high as compared to the margin on the sailing itself. So it would make sense to maximize the passenger mix that would generate the greatest portion of onboard revenue

[Cruise Gypsy]

I appreciate your viewpoint, Cruise Gypsy. It's not the very idea of "open seating," it's the fear that HAL will fumble the implementation and do away with the option for Traditional style altogether. I'm not bothered by the open option being available, just so long as I can be assured that I can have Traditional style. If wait-listing or other such limitations cause me to be unsure as to what I'll get when I board the ship, I'll fret. I like to KNOW what I'm buying. I've bought the HAL product because it has given me the comfort of knowing I'll get a traditional cruise experience ... but with this change, and with no assurance of being able to actually get Traditional Dining, that comfort is gone. If it happens too often, I'll be gone too.

 

Let's hope HAL doesn't disappoint either one of us.:)

[RevNeal]

Originally Posted by revneal

.... the more friends I make here and aboard ship, the more I find I WANT to cruise with them ...and only with them.

 

I have two words for you: PRIVATE YACHT :D !

 

Uh ... at my TABLE, Doug ... at my TABLE. I don't have to cruise on a private yacht in order to eat with people whom I know and like. I used to cruise all the time and meet new people for a cruise at the dining table. Now that I've had multiple chances to meet my fellow ccers on damships, I'd almost rather enjoy my mealtimes aboard ship with them than with anyone else. I've cruised since meeting ccers and have met new people at my dining table. It's been fun. But it's not been the same as going with a group. Now that the dining experience is changing, I may have to lean more heavily on pre-arranged groups ... particularly so when I travel alone. THAT was the context of my statement.

 

Ah I was waiting for this - I'm surprised it's taken this long for it to come in.

 

What do I win for providing you your opportunity to pontificate on this subject? :D

 

It's true that the different brands are more and more homogenized but I have to ask, was the difference between Princess and HAL bigger 20 years ago? Quite frankly, I don't think so! In fact it was probably smaller, since they were direct competitors.

 

If there is a lack of brand differentiation at Carnival, it comes not from central dictate that says "you must all be the same" but from the lines independently reaching the same conclusions because they are just inherently too similar.

 

I don't really think it's a central dictate, but rather a manifestation of "group thinking," as you seem to intimate, stemming from their Executive teams being (1) too similar and (2) inbred. Indeed, they higher Executive team leadership from each other, so how could it be otherwise?

 

As for them being less different 20 years ago than today ... well, personal witness from people I know say "not," but they may be biased. I wouldn't know. However, I would venture to guess that HAL's Dutch traditions were probably quite a bit stronger 20 years ago than they are today, and that created a different ethos aboard ship.

[RevNeal]

Fact is - you would callously prefer HAL didn't change to appeal to what the majority of people want and you would prefer the majority be dissatisifed . You are no different than I - only on the opposite side of the issue

 

Nonsense.

I don't mind HAL changing ... change is necessary for survival (things that don't change are dead). HAL has changed a lot during my time cruising aboard them. But change need not destroy the cruise experience that I, and others, appreciate. As I've said to others on his thread, I'm not really afraid of some form of the AYW system, so long as part of that system allows for the traditional style to be maintained. My concern (and the concern of many others) is that such will not be the case.

 

As for the rest of what you've said ... again, nonsense. You HAVE other lines where you already are cruising; you have what you like there. You don't HAVE to come to HAL if you don't like the product. IF HAL does away with enough of the traditions that it causes me to leave, I will go find a place where I can have the kind of cruise experiences I enjoy (or quit cruising). That's "displacement." The Line that did provide a product I enjoyed quit providing it, causing me to leave to find a product I like.

 

As for being callus ... again ... I'm not the one rejoicing that others are being hurt. AND ... before you reiterate your fake and vacuous attempt at equalization ... I don't rejoice when others are hurt. My wanting HAL to maintain their traditions does NOT hurt you or anyone else ... for, remember, you already HAVE other Lines on which to cruise where your likes and dislikes are met. Any claim otherwise is specious, vacuous, and disingenuous.

[RevNeal]

Long-time HAL repeaters booking long and/or many cruises each year are probably the least profitable passengers on HAL. I imagine that if anything, HAL would like to reduce its dependency on them.

 

There is a world of difference between wanting to reduce dependency upon the Long-time HAL repeaters and driving them away. I seriously doubt that HAL wants to get rid of us. They just want to expand their passenger base to pick up a greater turn-over in one-time cruisers, among others. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Good. When HAL does that it helps fuel CCL's bottom line, and that helps my investment portfolio.

 

How long would HAL survive if 100% of its passenger base, on 100% of its cruises, had to be made up of new cruisers to HAL? NO repeaters. EVER. It's a ridiculous hypothetical question, of course, but it demonstrates that HAL does want its Mariners to keep cruising with them. It just doesn't want to "depend" upon them to keep their ships filled. Indeed, as the Mariner base grows with the continued expansion of first-time cruisers, HAL gains more and more customers; and that's a good thing.

[gizmo]

We prefer open seating dining. I am always confused why people who want Traditional dining are so against any introduction of open seating. There are pro and cons of both but why shouldn't the option be available?:confused:

 

I have faith the HAL will be able to implement As You Wish dining fleet wide and maintain their service standards.:)

 

Waits, Lines and Beepers are my objections.

 

I expect it will be run like Princess. Traditional gets booked up very early, and then you are stuck.

 

I believe service is going to go down hill. I don't see people handing out a couple of extra bucks to the stewards with AYW. What are you going to do, run around the last night looking for 10 different stewards ? Why should the stewards make an extra effort ?

[Krazy Kruizers]

Beepers???? I don't want to hear them!!!!