HAL Formaly introduces "as you wish dining"

[bepsf]

These are major corporations - they don't make major changes because of a few squeaky wheels. They make these changes carefully - as HAL has after testing the concept apparantly to much success and acceptance by the MAJORITY of cruisers today

 

Ah Yes, GM, Ford and Chrysler also had MBA's and Focus Groups and Surveys telling them what they thought the general public wanted too...

 

...and look where their market share and stock prices are now.

:cool:

[RevNeal]

Nope - FACT. You are just too stubborn to see the light and admit it

 

Argumentative.

[berryberry]

But CCL already has Princess to appeal to folks such as yourself who might consider or prefer Freestyle. With HAL doing the same, you may enjoy more options but I get fewer - which may encourage me to look for other options outside the CCL corporate umbrella - therefore, CCL suffers a net loss.

 

 

And where will you go to? NCL - Freestyle. RCL - just introducing testing this non-traditional dining concept. Princess - Anytime Dining. Carnival - likely to follow suit soon is my guess (plus I somehow can't see most of the HAL cruisers here moving to Carnival ). Celebrity ? Perhaps the only possibility now - but lets assume RCL discovers what NCL, HAL, Princess have - that the majority of people prefer this type of non-traditional dining and RCL adopts it fleet wide after their initial test, how far behind will Celebrity be in doing so?

 

Face it - its a trend that is happening all over. This change is inevitable

[berryberry]

Ah Yes, GM, Ford and Chrysler also had MBA's and Focus Groups and Surveys telling them what they thought the general public wanted too...

 

...and look where their market share and stock prices are now.

:cool:

 

To try and equate the downfall of the Big 3 automotive companies with cruise lines adopting anytime dining is a bit absurd . It also shows a lack of knowledge of many of the major issues which caused the Big 3's troubles, not the least of which was the UAW

[RuthC]

The squeaky wheels get the grease.

Put another way:

Among walnuts, the empty one speaks

old Arab proverb

 

 

:rolleyes:

[RevNeal]

Face it - its a trend that is happening all over. This change is inevitable

 

And you are just loving it that we "old-timers" are having our favorite form of holiday challenged. Keep rubbing it in, bub. You're making no friends here with your snide, self-satisfied attitude.

 

As for us "old-timers" ... and particularly us solo "old-timers" ... we'll do our best to plan our cruises so that we're always aboard ship with at least a few ccer friends so that we won't be eating alone and can arrange table-groups at times that reflect tradition.

[RevNeal]

Put another way:

Among walnuts, the empty one speaks

old Arab proverb

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

LOL ... Ruth! Excellent.

 

There are Walnuts and there are cocoanuts ... and we be a lovely bunch of the latter.

[bepsf]

And where will you go to? NCL - Freestyle. RCL - just introducing testing this non-traditional dining concept. Princess - Anytime Dining. Carnival - likely to follow suit soon is my guess (plus I somehow can't see most of the HAL cruisers here moving to Carnival ). Celebrity ? Perhaps the only possibility now - but lets assume RCL discovers what NCL, HAL, Princess have - that the majority of people prefer this type of non-traditional dining and RCL adopts it fleet wide after their initial test, how far behind will Celebrity be in doing so?

 

Face it - its a trend that is happening all over. This change is inevitable

 

As I've said elsewhere - I'll go to whichever line (not owned by RCI, as I refuse to step foot aboard an RCCL/X ship again, but for other reasons...) that still has traditional seating and service - and if there are none left, then I won't cruise at all: my vacation and travel $$$ will be completely lost to CCL and the industry.

[berryberry]

And you are just loving it that we "old-timers" are having our favorite form of holiday challenged. Keep rubbing it in, bub. You're making no friends here with your snide, self-satisfied attitude.

 

As for us "old-timers" ... and particularly us solo "old-timers" ... we'll do our best to plan our cruises so that we're always aboard ship with at least a few ccer friends so that we won't be eating alone and can arrange table-groups at times that reflect tradition.

 

Wow - comments like that help me recall another reason I seem to now prefer other lines over HAL. The people on other lines / boards are much more friendly and open minded. Although luckily a lot of HAL cruisers on board don't resemble the outspoken old timers here.

 

Sorry if you dislike someone simply pointing out the facts - or applauding HAL for doing what it needs to do and changing with the times to cater to a much bigger and more lucrative market but I am simply stating the obvious - which some of you seem to refuse to accept

[berryberry]

As I've said elsewhere - I'll go to whichever line (not owned by RCI, as I refuse to step foot aboard an RCCL/X ship again, but for other reasons...) that still has traditional seating and service - and if there are none left, then I won't cruise at all: my vacation and travel $$$ will be completely lost to CCL and the industry.

 

Sorry - and don't take this the wrong way but somehow I don't think they will miss you. Its pretty clear their market research (and success of other lines) shows this trend is what a majority of people want - so for every dissatisfied person like yourself, they will likely attract multiple people in your stead because of the change

[RevNeal]

Wow - comments like that help me recall another reason I seem to now prefer other lines over HAL. The people on other lines / boards are much more friendly and open minded. Although luckily a lot of HAL cruisers on board don't resemble the outspoken old timers here.

 

Sorry if you dislike someone simply pointing out the facts - or applauding HAL for doing what it needs to do and changing with the times to cater to a much bigger and more lucrative market but I am simply stating the obvious - which some of you seem to refuse to accept

 

berryberry, I -- and many other "old timers" like me -- have no trouble "accepting" that things change. The ships have gotten larger, dress code observance has declined, etc., and yet we "old timers" manage to accommodate ourselves and even come to enjoy the new, bigger ships. We don't LIKE it that things change, but we usually manage to find ways to work around it and still arrange things to enjoy ourselves on our cruises. We'll figure out ways to do that with this change, even if it means that some of us will either cruise less or only cruise with other ccers. Frankly, the more friends I make here and aboard ship, the more I find I WANT to cruise with them ...and only with them. And, I (and others like me) have more than enough friends to find at least some great people with whom to cruise.

 

My only real objection to your remarks are that they have come across as being entirely un-feeling regarding the dilemma that others -- and particularly solo "old timer" HAL cruisers -- face with these changes, while dancing a jig that it meets your wishes.

 

Yes, it is possible that we can find way to re-create the feel of "traditional" dining even within the confines of AYW; it may take some work on our part, but that extra effort will probably prove worthwhile. But, sadly, a valuable aspect of traditional cruising is now slipping into oblivion, and with its loss goes yet another thing that made cruising a very different experience.

 

Oh, and Brian is right ... differentiation among the various lines is a GOOD thing. Making every line just like every other line is a recipe for disaster.

[RevNeal]

Sorry - and don't take this the wrong way but somehow I don't think they will miss you. Its pretty clear their market research (and success of other lines) shows this trend is what a majority of people want - so for every dissatisfied person like yourself, they will likely attract multiple people in your stead because of the change

 

You intended it the "wrong way," so don't be surprised if he, or others, take it that way.

[bepsf]

To try and equate the downfall of the Big 3 automotive companies with cruise lines adopting anytime dining is a bit absurd.

 

Not really - If you think about it, the parallels between Oldsmobile's brand, market and product position within GM in the 80's and 90's and HAL's position within CCL today are quite striking. Both brands have a long history, appealing to the same type of traditional buyer, and occupying an upper-middle position in the marketplace, however diminishing product quality due to cost-cutting, brand engineering, internal competition within the GM corporate structure and products that no longer appealed to the traditional buyer eventually made the Oldsmobile brand irrelevant - Change the names from "GM" to "CCL" and "Oldsmobile" to "HAL" and I think you'll see the similarities...

 

It also shows a lack of knowledge of many of the major issues which caused the Big 3's troubles, not the least of which was the UAW

Labor costs are only a part of the American auto industry's downfall - Japanese and German hourly labor costs are equally high, yet they manage to produce, market and sell desirable products at premium prices and low discounts. American producers could have remained as successful as they had in the past if they had continued to produce a variety of well-designed and desirable products that sold at premium prices rather than dumbed-down, cost-reduced, Xerox copies of one another's portfolios.

 

I'm sure you'll agree that poor product design, de-contenting, "badge engineering", etc. was not the fault of the UAW, but the MBA's in the corporate suite - Doing so is akin to blaming HAL's diminishing repeat-cruiser rate to the Indonesian waiters and cabin stewards...

[RevNeal]

Brian,

The Analogy you sketch is very convincing and rather disturbing. I would hate it if HAL went the way of Oldsmobile.

 

CCL saved HAL ... there is no doubt about that. The HAL of today is different than the HAL of the 1980s, true, but it has managed to provide a wonderful product for nearly 20 years since the CCL purchase and has expanded their options, offerings, and traditions far beyond where they were back then. It would be a horrible shame if, after saving HAL and expanding the line tremendously, CCL then destroyed HAL by homogenizing it with all the other Lines in the CCL family.

[berryberry]

My only real objection to your remarks are that they have come across as being entirely un-feeling regarding the dilemma that others -- and particularly solo "old timer" HAL cruisers -- face with these changes, while dancing a jig that it meets your wishes.

 

 

Am I glad that HAL has made this change - YES.

 

Will it encourage me to give HAL more consideration next time I book a cruise - YES

 

Does it bother me that some old timers are upset over the change - to be honest, NO. Just as you and others could have cared less that I and others prefer choice in dining, relaxed dress codes, etc I am not going to be all weepy eyed for your / their dismay over this change.

 

So if that makes me un-feeling - so be it. But then again, remember you and many others were unfeeling in the past in trying to fight changes like this and not being concerned that others preferred an updated style of cruising that fits in more with todays lifestyles

[fcorey]

Sorry - and don't take this the wrong way but somehow I don't think they will miss you. Its pretty clear their market research (and success of other lines) shows this trend is what a majority of people want - so for every dissatisfied person like yourself, they will likely attract multiple people in your stead because of the change

 

Wow, you certainly like to poke the bee hive with a stick don't you. One thing you need to realize, is that HAL has the highest percentage of repeat cruisers of any CCL line. Its something like 60%. HAL can do whatever they want and change thing but if they alienate those loyal customers they will eventually have problems. I say this because of competition and the segment of the travel population they are going for. Trying to lure families, they will not win here, period. CCL, RCCI, and Disney will kill them in this market. If they want to survive they need to find another niche where they can win.

 

I think that AYW seating as an option is fine, but I am not a solo traveler. I do understand their fears. Funny thing is that on the cruises we have been on our table mates were one of the best parts of the trip. We went to bars on the ship together, shows etc, and we never knew them prior to sitting down at that table. In fact we are now very good friends with some from our Oosterdam trip and will be traveling to UK to visit them next year.

 

While you assume that EVERYONE wants AYW dining, I think you'll find that the percentages who want this will differ on each line. It is a fact that the traditional seating fills up completely on Princess and HAL (where this has been tried). Over on the Celebrity board the majority of people responding to the poll say that they are dead set against this. Personally I like options, I might actually try it. But I have to admit I think I'd miss having the same server (part of the service is that they get to know you and you them during the trip) and table mates (and I am not generally what most people would consider an outgoing person, luckily my wife is)

 

All cruise lines will not be all things to all people. When I see them all trying to do the same things it makes me think of exactly what Brian was talking about with GM.

However I will say this as you keep touting NCL, they lost $116M dollars in Q4, they are also one of the most leveraged cruise lines with a huge debt. Q4 '05 they lost $33M , and for the year they lost $131M, so in Q4 '06 they lost almost as much as they did they whole year prior, that is not a step in the right direction. Say what you will about Carnival Corp, they actually turned a profit and a significant one for which us stockholders got a dividend.

[RevNeal]

Am I glad that HAL has made this change - YES.

 

Will it encourage me to give HAL more consideration next time I book a cruise - YES

 

Does it bother me that some old timers are upset over the change - to be honest, NO. Just as you and others could have cared less that I and others prefer choice in dining, relaxed dress codes, etc I am not going to be all weepy eyed for your / their dismay over this change.

 

So if that makes me un-feeling - so be it. But then again, remember you and many others were unfeeling in the past in trying to fight changes like this and not being concerned that others preferred an updated style of cruising that fits in more with todays lifestyles

 

Oh ... kay.

 

(A Later Thought: Sometimes people reveal more in their posts than they intend).

[RevNeal]

Wow, you certainly like to poke the bee hive with a stick don't you.

 

Frank, if my memory serves me correctly this poster used to post here about dress codes and booze policies, etc., in ways that illicited emotional and negative responses from may of us "old timers" (as he calls us). Now he's getting his "pound of flesh" by licking up the tears of those of us with whom he sparred a few years back. If find his attitude quite revealing.

[fcorey]

Frank, if my memory serves me correctly this poster used to post here about dress codes and booze policies, etc., in ways that illicited emotional and negative responses from may of us "old timers" (as he calls us). Now he's getting his "pound of flesh" by licking up the tears of those of us with whom he sparred a few years back. If find his attitude quite revealing.

 

C'est La Vie..... like I said anytime you need dining companions...

[bepsf]

Am I glad that HAL has made this change - YES.

 

Will it encourage me to give HAL more consideration next time I book a cruise - YES

 

Does it bother me that some old timers are upset over the change - to be honest, NO. Just as you and others could have cared less that I and others prefer choice in dining, relaxed dress codes, etc I am not going to be all weepy eyed for your / their dismay over this change.

 

So if that makes me un-feeling - so be it. But then again, remember you and many others were unfeeling in the past in trying to fight changes like this and not being concerned that others preferred an updated style of cruising that fits in more with todays lifestyles

 

While you have every right to enjoy a product that you prefer, that doens't make it correct that everyone should be forced to enjoy the same product or that all products should necessarily be the same. Differentiation is what exactly brands are supposed to be for - take away the differences and there's no need for brands or choice at all.

 

While sameness didn't work for the US auto industry and isn't working for the Airlines - there's no reason to expect that it will work for the cruise industry either.

[bepsf]

One thing you need to realize, is that HAL has the highest percentage of repeat cruisers of any CCL line. Its something like 60%. HAL can do whatever they want and change thing but if they alienate those loyal customers they will eventually have problems. I say this because of competition and the segment of the travel population they are going for. Trying to lure families, they will not win here, period. CCL, RCCI, and Disney will kill them in this market. If they want to survive they need to find another niche where they can win.

 

Indeed Frank, I understand that HAL's repeat rate has dropped from approx 68% to 61% over the past year alone. With changes such as AYW in efforts to pursue the "Mainstream" markets and clientelle (for which it's ships and staff are ill-equipped) while abandoning it's traditional market stronghold, HAL's repeat rate is bound to drop further...

[berryberry]

You intended it the "wrong way," so don't be surprised if he, or others, take it that way.

 

 

So now you are a mindreader?

 

Fact is for everyone upset over this change, there are likely many new to HAL cruisers it will attract. So if some folks say goodbye to HAL because of this, they will easily be replaced

 

I believe I read somewhere that HALs prices out of NY are up to 30% cheaper than NCL for a similiar cruise. Assuming this is true - why is that? I am sure demand for a more flexible cruise (ie anytime dining, relaxed dress, etc) is a big part of it

[cruiserking]

Hey Greg, Brian & Ruth,

 

Hope all is well. Good times bumping into you all on the lovely Noordam last January. Never did have that lunch Greg, look forward to it on some other HAL vessel soon.

 

Now on the As You Wish Dining thing, I think it's idiotic. The whole appeal of cruising with traditional dining is the wonderful friendships that we forge. We always ask for a table of eight and end up meeting some wonderful people and look forward to recounting our daily adventures with them.

 

Once the As You Wish Wand has cast its evil spell completely all those grand experiences will disappear like a puff of smoke from the funnel.

 

What is this talk of "Old Timers" like we're a decrepit bunch of relics from some antiquated age. Hey, they got rid of portholes a while back we're okay with that. We simply want to enjoy the company of new traveling companions in the elegant and unique atmosphere that is shipboard travel and traditional dining.

 

But, Nooo..CCL has to march in and gradually dismantle all of the things that make HAL so dear to us, dress codes, dining structure. They step in and reconfigure all of the spirit out of each line until it's just a bland version of its former self, a theme park ride.

 

The other guys have their Freestyle dining, just let HAL continue to flourish as the grand line it has been for over a century. We Old Timers would prefer it that way.

 

Jonathan

[berryberry]

Not really - If you think about it, the parallels between Oldsmobile's brand, market and product position within GM in the 80's and 90's and HAL's position within CCL today are quite striking. Both brands have a long history, appealing to the same type of traditional buyer, and occupying an upper-middle position in the marketplace, however diminishing product quality due to cost-cutting, brand engineering, internal competition within the GM corporate structure and products that no longer appealed to the traditional buyer eventually made the Oldsmobile brand irrelevant - Change the names from "GM" to "CCL" and "Oldsmobile" to "HAL" and I think you'll see the similarities...

 

Labor costs are only a part of the American auto industry's downfall - Japanese and German hourly labor costs are equally high, yet they manage to produce, market and sell desirable products at premium prices and low discounts. American producers could have remained as successful as they had in the past if they had continued to produce a variety of well-designed and desirable products that sold at premium prices rather than dumbed-down, cost-reduced, Xerox copies of one another's portfolios.

 

I'm sure you'll agree that poor product design, de-contenting, "badge engineering", etc. was not the fault of the UAW, but the MBA's in the corporate suite - Doing so is akin to blaming HAL's diminishing repeat-cruiser rate to the Indonesian waiters and cabin stewards...

 

If you want to solely focus on Oldsmobile, then your argument is more legit. However, in your initial post you were comparing HAL to GM, Ford and Chrysler where your argument really doesn't hold much water

[berryberry]

Wow, you certainly like to poke the bee hive with a stick don't you. One thing you need to realize, is that HAL has the highest percentage of repeat cruisers of any CCL line. Its something like 60%. HAL can do whatever they want and change thing but if they alienate those loyal customers they will eventually have problems. I say this because of competition and the segment of the travel population they are going for. Trying to lure families, they will not win here, period. CCL, RCCI, and Disney will kill them in this market. If they want to survive they need to find another niche where they can win.

 

I think that AYW seating as an option is fine, but I am not a solo traveler. I do understand their fears. Funny thing is that on the cruises we have been on our table mates were one of the best parts of the trip. We went to bars on the ship together, shows etc, and we never knew them prior to sitting down at that table. In fact we are now very good friends with some from our Oosterdam trip and will be traveling to UK to visit them next year.

 

While you assume that EVERYONE wants AYW dining, I think you'll find that the percentages who want this will differ on each line. It is a fact that the traditional seating fills up completely on Princess and HAL (where this has been tried). Over on the Celebrity board the majority of people responding to the poll say that they are dead set against this. Personally I like options, I might actually try it. But I have to admit I think I'd miss having the same server (part of the service is that they get to know you and you them during the trip) and table mates (and I am not generally what most people would consider an outgoing person, luckily my wife is)

 

All cruise lines will not be all things to all people. When I see them all trying to do the same things it makes me think of exactly what Brian was talking about with GM.

However I will say this as you keep touting NCL, they lost $116M dollars in Q4, they are also one of the most leveraged cruise lines with a huge debt. Q4 '05 they lost $33M , and for the year they lost $131M, so in Q4 '06 they lost almost as much as they did they whole year prior, that is not a step in the right direction. Say what you will about Carnival Corp, they actually turned a profit and a significant one for which us stockholders got a dividend.

 

Three points - so I don't keep repeating previous points.

 

1. I am not holding out NCL as a be all and end all. I have no allegiance to any particular line like some folks here do. That said, it is hard to compare NCL as a business with CCL just given CCL's size. NCL has an uphill road to hoe as the underdog in the business

 

2. Again - never said EVERYONE wants anytime dining - but a vast MAJORITY do. Its why you see the trend occuring on line after line after line

 

3. As to HAL's repeat cruiser rate - that may be the case (although I would be curious to see the same %'s from other carriers) but if HAL's customer base continues to age (and you will surely admit that they do have a much larger % of elderly passengers who probably make up a big portion of that repeat % base) obviously a problem will occur when this oldsters die off unless HAL attracts a new generation of cruisers - which they won't do by not changing with the times