Very big vs big

[Cuizer2]

The following article ...

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/sfl-flzcarnival0329sbmar29,0,4972958.story

 

compares the direction Royal Caribbean and Carnival are taking regarding the size of their ships. Very interesting - IMO.

[albertiger]

As Spock would say, "Fascinating...".

RCI lost me a few years back as the ships kept gettng bigger and they forgot about the single traveler.;)

[*Mach*]

Very interesting article. Thanks!

I think this qoute, from Carnival's Howard Frank, was the most telling part of the piece:

"It's not about building icons; it's not about building trophies," Frank said. "It's about building assets that give you a good return on investment."

[Casino Player]

The following article ...

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/sfl-flzcarnival0329sbmar29,0,4972958.story

 

compares the direction Royal Caribbean and Carnival are taking regarding the size of their ships. Very interesting - IMO.

 

Seems to me that RCCL's motto is, "build it and they will come." No so. Who wants to pay extra for a steak in the resturant? Who wants to pay extra for room service? The rich could have their cruise line. The rooms are also smaller, the food doesn't taste as good (if you could idendify it), and the service is bad. As for me, I'll stick with Carnival.

[CruiserRose]

can you imagine disembarkation with 5k ppl onboard. it will have to take forever to clear customs. NO Thanks....

[Kurbanfan]

Seems to me that RCCL's motto is, "build it and they will come." No so. Who wants to pay extra for a steak in the resturant? Who wants to pay extra for room service? The rich could have their cruise line. The rooms are also smaller, the food doesn't taste as good (if you could idendify it), and the service is bad. As for me, I'll stick with Carnival.

 

All this from one RCCL cruise:rolleyes: Hey ya might want to try another you will find out their cabins are just as big and bigger then Carnival depending on ships. Also RCCL's balconies are bigger.....yes sweetie bigger;)

Oh and speaking about steaks......options.....yes just an option.

Do you also whine when you buy a new car and they tell you about all the options you can purchase......or a new house? Nah you either pay for them or simply decline:rolleyes:

[LorrieB]

I hate to say it but I think RCI made a huge mistake in placing so much money into these mammoth ships. I would rather stay on the Conquest class ships and the smaller ships of Carnival where I don't feel like an ant in a giant sandcastle.

[Aplmac]

So far, there's no sign of eroding prices for the Oasis, Tukel said.

A seven-night cruise in late January 2010, costs twice as much as the new 3,600-passenger Carnival Dream,

because people are willing to pay more for what's considered the industry's latest-and-greatest cruise ship, he said.

 

 

_____________________

Unreal!

 

 

.

[sliderturk99]

People will always be drawn to the latest and greatest,just to say "hey we did it". Once the honeymoon is over so to speak, we will see how good of an investment these large ships will be.

Nobody, will be willing to pay a premium fee to travel if they feel the product does not give them an equal or greater return on their satisfaction an enjoyment.

 

Only time will tell.

[dan40]

I sail RCL's big ships and like them. I also sail CCL's 'smaller' [a misnomer] ships and like them.

 

Would it make good business sense for RCL to compete head to head with CCL with the same size ships? They HAVE to do something to stand out. So they went big ships. MSC went dirt cheap, NCL went different, but they all are just reacting to CCL's dominance.

 

The big problem I see with RCL's mega ship approach is costs and cost recovery.

CCL has been stroking the Fantasy class design since it showed itself to be a winner. Stretch longer, pump up higher, push out wider, but still the same basic ship. That does 2 things, one, they KNOW how the ship will perform before they start to build it, and two it saves a massive amount of construction costs.

RCL is looking at construction costs half a BILLION DOLLARS more than CCL, per ship.

 

At $899 per passenger that's 10700 more passenger needed PER WEEK to pay the difference in a year. To pay their higher costs, RCL NEEDS over 2000 More pax per week per ship, without interest, to cover construction costs in 5 years.

They cannot cut the fare, and they cannot sail with empty cabins. A rock and a hard place caused by spending money they never had. Sound familiar, Washington?

 

Dan

[Cuizer2]

CCL has been stroking the Fantasy class design since it showed itself to be a winner. Stretch longer, pump up higher, push out wider, but still the same basic ship. That does 2 things, one, they KNOW how the ship will perform before they start to build it, and two it saves a massive amount of construction costs.

 

Dan

 

Construction cost or design costs? Construction cost is the cost to build the ship, which depends on how much material and labor is involved. It is the same for the first ship in the class and the last ship in the class.

 

However, the design costs for ships 2 through whatever in a class is zero. Of course, if a cruise line knows it will built three of a class, it will allocate the cost of design among all three.

 

Still using the same design on a newer ship saves a lot in design costs, but I don't see it saving any in construction costs.

[dan40]

Construction cost or design costs? Construction cost is the cost to build the ship, which depends on how much material and labor is involved. It is the same for the first ship in the class and the last ship in the class.

 

However, the design costs for ships 2 through whatever in a class is zero. Of course, if a cruise line knows it will built three of a class, it will allocate the cost of design among all three.

 

Still using the same design on a newer ship saves a lot in design costs, but I don't see it saving any in construction costs.

 

A larger ship will use more raw material and cost more. But as you say, design costs will be tightly controlled by experience, as will fabrication costs be less from that same experience.

 

Dan

[Nezmo]

Construction cost or design costs? Construction cost is the cost to build the ship, which depends on how much material and labor is involved. It is the same for the first ship in the class and the last ship in the class.

 

...

Is this strictly true? I would expect there to be retooling costs for the first ship in a new line. For example, setting-up steel cutting templates or casts. I'm no ship building expert, just seems to make sense to me.

[Cuizer2]

Is this strictly true? I would expect there to be retooling costs for the first ship in a new line. For example, setting-up steel cutting templates or casts. I'm no ship building expert, just seems to make sense to me.

Nobody is stamping out 100K ton cruise ships in an assembly line. The machines that create the parts are computer controlled devises for cutting steal. So all that is necessary is transferring the CAD plans to the machine that does the cutting.

 

Building a ship is more like building a Rolls Royce than a Ford.

 

There is a lot that goes into the design of a ship. It involves more than drawing a few lines on paper. Models are built and tested. You don't want to be hundreds of millions of dollars (or whatever the local currency is) into the full size ship only to find that it is unstable. At this point you've got a very BIG problem.

 

In rough terms, design takes about one year. Dry dock work (putting the structure together) takes about one year and wet dock (finishing work) takes about one year. So you are looking at about three years from concept to paying passengers.

 

Take a look at the slight slant of the top windows in the Voyager class Royal Promenade (look at the windows on the top right of the Navigator of the Seas for example) ...

 

 

Do you know why they slant in like that? Because Royal Caribbean wanted the Royal Promenade to be ten meters wide and the ship yard's marine architects felt it could only be nine meters. So the compromise was ten meters on the bottom and nine meters on the top (the top windows on each side slant in 1/2 meter).

[firefly4423]

Thanks for the read! It was very interesting.

[Cuizer2]

The Royal Promenade width is an issue that came up is the design phase. Water tank tests are made during the design phase. The design phase is very expensive. If a design can be used over and over again, it saves a lot of time and money. Take a look at the Vista class HAL ships and the Spirit class Carnival ships. Notice anything similar (and yes, Carnival owns HAL) ...

 

 

[spencercoop]

All this from one RCCL cruise:rolleyes: Hey ya might want to try another you will find out their cabins are just as big and bigger then Carnival depending on ships. Also RCCL's balconies are bigger.....yes sweetie bigger;)

Oh and speaking about steaks......options.....yes just an option.

Do you also whine when you buy a new car and they tell you about all the options you can purchase......or a new house? Nah you either pay for them or simply decline:rolleyes:

 

How do you figure RCCL cabins are bigger.

 

I am going to compare the Voyager of the Seas and the Carnival Dream because they are almost the same size.

 

The first cabin size will be for the Dream, the second cabin size will be for the Voyager, and the 3rd will be the difference.

 

Inside Cabin: 180 134 =46 more sq. ft. in the Carnival Dream Cabins

 

Oceanview Cabin: 220 180 =40 more sq. ft in the Carnival Dream Cabins

 

Balcony Cabin: 185 + 35 173 + 47 = If you add the balcony and cabin together the balcony cabins are the same size.

 

So the pretty much the regular cabins, not the suites are bigger on Carnival. You pay less for the room and get a bigger room!!

[aggieastrosfan]

Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed that.

 

I think Carnival's taking the right approach. If people want to pay more for the glamorous new ship, let them. Not everyone wants that, and there's plenty other who can't or don't want to pay the big bucks to sail the Oasis.

[Kurbanfan]

How do you figure RCCL cabins are bigger.

 

I am going to compare the Voyager of the Seas and the Carnival Dream because they are almost the same size.

 

The first cabin size will be for the Dream, the second cabin size will be for the Voyager, and the 3rd will be the difference.

 

Inside Cabin: 180 134 =46 more sq. ft. in the Carnival Dream Cabins

 

Oceanview Cabin: 220 180 =40 more sq. ft in the Carnival Dream Cabins

 

Balcony Cabin: 185 + 35 173 + 47 = If you add the balcony and cabin together the balcony cabins are the same size.

 

So the pretty much the regular cabins, not the suites are bigger on Carnival. You pay less for the room and get a bigger room!!

 

I was referring to all the blanket statements that Carnivals cabins are bigger then Royal Caribbeans;)

Gotta love the the bigger balconies on RCCL though:D That is what we cruise for.........

[Cruzaholic41]

How do you figure RCCL cabins are bigger.

 

The first cabin size will be for the Dream, the second cabin size will be for the Voyager, and the 3rd will be the difference.

 

Inside Cabin: 180 134 =46 more sq. ft. in the Carnival Dream Cabins

 

Oceanview Cabin: 220 180 =40 more sq. ft in the Carnival Dream Cabins

 

Balcony Cabin: 185 + 35 173 + 47 = If you add the balcony and cabin together the balcony cabins are the same size.

 

You are a little off on your numbers. Voyager's interior rooms are smaller, but they are 158sf, not 134. Voyager has a larger oceanview that is 211sf.

 

But if you step up to Freedom Class, the balconies are 214sf, large oceanview is 214sf, and interiors are 160sf.

 

Now, compare those numbers to a Carnival ship that actually exists already.

 

So you see, it can not be said, in general, that Carnival has bigger rooms. Nowadays, it's about comparing ships, not cruise lines.

[dan40]

Nobody is stamping out 100K ton cruise ships in an assembly line. The machines that create the parts are computer controlled devises for cutting steal. So all that is necessary is transferring the CAD plans to the machine that does the cutting.

 

Building a ship is more like building a Rolls Royce than a Ford.

 

How about we forgot the how and/or why and just deal with the KNOWN fact that RCL's ships are much more expensive to build.

And that RCL does not have a cent to pay for them and they MUST borrow the every penny of the price. They do not choose to borrow, they have to.

As a result they have to carry thousands more passengers than Carnival in order to be profitable. In 2006, 2007, 2008, they carried enough pax to be profitable. But RCL's profits were like pocket change compared to Carnival's profit in the same period. Some qtrs. RCL's profit was well below 100 million when in the same time period Carnival's profits exceeded 1 Billion. And for anyone not a math whiz, one billion is ONE THOUSAND MILLIONS.

 

And RCL did not have the financial burden of Oasis and her sister then. Today they still face the need to carry more pax to stay alive, have the additional new ship debt burden, a lower credit rating meaning higher interest on that debt burden, a down economy, wholesale price cutting in their industry, and they cannot join in the price cutting, NOR can they afford to sail with empty cabins.

 

I do not want RCL to fail. They serve a cruise answer for me at certain times. I am a diamond RCL cruiser, I used to cap. that, now lower case will do. But I would not invest a cent in their company.

 

It can go south in a heartbeat, after 9/11 travel almost stopped. A dozen cruiselines went bellyup. Many many ships were arrested by creditors in foreign ports and the passengers kicked off and left to fend for them selves. Find their own way home, pay all expenses themselves and not a cent of reimbursment. Thousands and thousands of people, ONLY 9 years ago.

 

Those that do not learn from the past are destined to repeat it.

 

Dan

[spencercoop]

You are a little off on your numbers. Voyager's interior rooms are smaller, but they are 158sf, not 134. Voyager has a larger oceanview that is 211sf.

 

But if you step up to Freedom Class, the balconies are 214sf, large oceanview is 214sf, and interiors are 160sf.

 

Now, compare those numbers to a Carnival ship that actually exists already.

 

So you see, it can not be said, in general, that Carnival has bigger rooms. Nowadays, it's about comparing ships, not cruise lines.

 

Where did you get your numbers, becuase I got mine off cruisedeckplans.com.

 

Ok if you want me to do that. Say the Carnival Splendor. The interior staterooms are 180 sq ft., the oceanview are 220 sq ft., and the balcony cabins are 220 sq ft. counting the balcony and the cabin. The Splendor also has cabins with extended balconies that have a 185 sq ft. cabin and balconies that are bigger than 60 sq ft.

[Cruzaholic41]

Where did you get your numbers, becuase I got mine off cruisedeckplans.com.

 

Ok if you want me to do that. Say the Carnival Splendor. The interior staterooms are 180 sq ft., the oceanview are 220 sq ft., and the balcony cabins are 220 sq ft. counting the balcony and the cabin. The Splendor also has cabins with extended balconies that have a 185 sq ft. cabin and balconies that are bigger than 60 sq ft.

 

My numbers are from an RCI brochure....and I have stayed in most of them. RCI also has extended balconies. They just don't advertise them.

 

Listen, I'm not here to cheerlead a cruise line. Congratulations you found a ship with bigger rooms. There are also many with smaller rooms. I'm sorry you are not seeing my point.

[spencercoop]

My numbers are from an RCI brochure....and I have stayed in most of them. RCI also has extended balconies. They just don't advertise them.

 

Listen, I'm not here to cheerlead a cruise line. Congratulations you found a ship with bigger rooms. There are also many with smaller rooms. I'm sorry you are not seeing my point.

 

I was just making a statement, just like you were making a statement.

 

Yes Royal Caribbean has some bigger cabins than Carnival, but the majority of Carnival's cabins are bigger than RCCI.

[Kstofflet]

Carnival, with 89 ships and earnings of $2.3 billion last year, has a big lead on Royal's total of 38 ships and $573.7 million in profit. It seems to me Carnival is 4x more