Tipping is American, but ships are not American?

[TomTN]

BTW - I asked this question because my husband and I feel this way. Even if we don't want a drink at the time, we will never sit in a ship's lounge without ordering one for the reason noted in my previous post quoted above.

 

Sorry you feel that way. You should not. About 90% of the time the lounges are at least half empty. True on most ships.

I would not feel bad about ordering just a glass of water. Return and have a drink when that is what you want.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe you visit the lounges when they are crowded?

[Davey Interweb]

Sorry you feel that way. You should not. About 90% of the time the lounges are at least half empty. True on most ships.

I would not feel bad about ordering just a glass of water. Return and have a drink when that is what you want.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe you visit the lounges when they are crowded?

 

I thought this to be a bit bizarre myself, honestly, but to each their own. Lounges and bars are public spaces, and I'll be damned if I'm going to feel obligated to purchase a drink just to sit there for a few minutes. Most of the time, I'll usually have a drink in hand already and I'm probably just killing time.

 

I've never given that much thought to the whole gratuity thing by the end of most any cruise I've ever partaken in. I certainly don't feel bad at all about denying someone a tip if they gave crap service, though. The same goes at any given land-based restaurant; if I thought a server was awful, that person will probably receive my standard "you suck at what you do" gratuity: one penny. This is a rare occurrence but certainly sends a message, you know? Before anyone pipes up, I can indeed easily differentiate between a person who has perhaps had a really bad day, and one who is clearly in the wrong field of work.

 

On the other hand, I've tipped double my tab on occasion when someone has proved to be truly awesome - as in, not fake but just exceedingly good at what they do. That I can appreciate, and they might have made my day a lot better simply through simple, thoughtful actions. The funny thing is, I actually feel ridiculous at the thought of someone - anyone - feeling that they must be subservient to me.

 

Gratuities are just that; I never feel obligated to give them but I won't cheap out to save a few bucks where some might. I'm just not about to supplement someone else's income just because there's some moronic stigma surrounding it, and people who tip someone who isn't good at their job, in my opinion, are simply suckers.

[kelmac]

I thought this to be a bit bizarre myself, honestly, but to each their own. Lounges and bars are public spaces, and I'll be damned if I'm going to feel obligated to purchase a drink just to sit there for a few minutes. Most of the time, I'll usually have a drink in hand already and I'm probably just killing time.

 

I've never given that much thought to the whole gratuity thing by the end of most any cruise I've ever partaken in. I certainly don't feel bad at all about denying someone a tip if they gave crap service, though. The same goes at any given land-based restaurant; if I thought a server was awful, that person will probably receive my standard "you suck at what you do" gratuity: one penny. This is a rare occurrence but certainly sends a message, you know? Before anyone pipes up, I can indeed easily differentiate between a person who has perhaps had a really bad day, and one who is clearly in the wrong field of work.

 

On the other hand, I've tipped double my tab on occasion when someone has proved to be truly awesome - as in, not fake but just exceedingly good at what they do. That I can appreciate, and they might have made my day a lot better simply through simple, thoughtful actions. The funny thing is, I actually feel ridiculous at the thought of someone - anyone - feeling that they must be subservient to me.

 

Gratuities are just that; I never feel obligated to give them but I won't cheap out to save a few bucks where some might. I'm just not about to supplement someone else's income just because there's some moronic stigma surrounding it, and people who tip someone who isn't good at their job, in my opinion, are simply suckers.

 

That's true for American land based travel, however, cruise ship service employees only make $50 a month + gratuities. So we passengers provide the salaries of 85% of the people employed on these ships.

No matter what the economy is doing to the price of a cruise, these workers will be paid at their going rate. This system allows a company to discount a cruise down to $399 pp without taking a hit on service labor costs. Workers who provide low levels of service will be exposed by low ratings on the exit survey and their days will be numbered.

 

Everyone is trying to apply their personal take on tipping in this situation and it's not applicable. Many passengers who want total control over their gratuities are perhaps sincere, but many more are just cheap bas*@+ds.

 

What kind of psychological malady causes someone to make other humans jump through hoops only to ignore their efforts when it's time to reward their labor? I don't understand this total lack of empathy!

 

Enjoy!

Kel

[Bridge Maven]

After reading the responses to my question - it appears that we are the only ones who feel that if we don't buy a drink in a lounge we are taking a seat away from someone who could be a source of tips for the crew who work in that area.

[Amerie]

That's true for American land based travel, however, cruise ship service employees only make $50 a month + gratuities. So we passengers provide the salaries of 85% of the people employed on these ships.

No matter what the economy is doing to the price of a cruise, these workers will be paid at their going rate. This system allows a company to discount a cruise down to $399 pp without taking a hit on service labor costs. Workers who provide low levels of service will be exposed by low ratings on the exit survey and their days will be numbered.

 

Everyone is trying to apply their personal take on tipping in this situation and it's not applicable. Many passengers who want total control over their gratuities are perhaps sincere, but many more are just cheap bas*@+ds.

 

What kind of psychological malady causes someone to make other humans jump through hoops only to ignore their efforts when it's time to reward their labor? I don't understand this total lack of empathy!

 

Enjoy!

Kel

 

 

Kel, the points you make are the ones that are essential to a discussion about tipping, here on the Celebrity boards.

[terrierjohn]

After reading the responses to my question - it appears that we are the only ones who feel that if we don't buy a drink in a lounge we are taking a seat away from someone who could be a source of tips for the crew who work in that area.

Do you also feel obligated to buy drinks every time a waiter asks you while you sunbathe on deck?;):cool:

[The_Big_M]

After reading the responses to my question - it appears that we are the only ones who feel that if we don't buy a drink in a lounge we are taking a seat away from someone who could be a source of tips for the crew who work in that area.

 

1) Would you say their tipping income is based on having a full complement of passengers buying drinks continually?

 

2) Would you say that you taking a seat there would prevent someone else from sitting there and buying drinks or is there still capacity?

[woodofpine]

Tuggers Kelmac et al. - RIGHT ON!:D

 

Occassionally, I need to remind myself how freakin' fortunate we all are. I may not know much but one thing I'm absolutely certain of. I'd rather be a cruise ship passenger than service crewman! Those are the folks whom I'll give a break!;)

 

Terrierjohn - you're a decent bloke! Have a pint in The Shambles for me. Whatever coin passes 'tween you and the barman is YOUR business!:)

[C 2 C]

Hey everyone, you can do it all again on a new tipping thread.. no reference to flags of convenience though..:eek::cool:

[Bridge Maven]

1) Would you say their tipping income is based on having a full complement of passengers buying drinks continually?

 

2) Would you say that you taking a seat there would prevent someone else from sitting there and buying drinks or is there still capacity?

 

The only time we sit in a lounge at sea is to dance or listen to music so the lounges are usually crowded at that time.

 

BTW - I never feel that way at a hotel lounge, only on a ship. At a hotel when someone asks if I want a drink I feel it is just a courtesy but on a ship I feel that the crew expect you to buy a drink if you are sitting in a lounge for more than a few minutes.

[C 2 C]

The only time we sit in a lounge at sea is to dance or listen to music so the lounges are usually crowded at that time.

 

From Celebrity's point of view, lounge entertainers are only as good as the revenue they generate. The waiters treasure good groups because of the tips they generate. The Rendezvous groups are normally "Top Notch", and they deserve to be rewarded by a thirsty and paying public. We certainly don't mind buying while we occupy front row seats.

[Sparkle2009]

Interesting and topical news item on BBC this morning: this type of "forced" tipping is to become illegal in UK:

 

The new rules, which will make it illegal for tips to be used to make up staff wages, often to the national minimum, come into force on 1 October.

Restaurants will have to pay salaries in full, which will now attract national insurance on the whole amount.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8275837.stm

[hypercafe]

I think this whole tip this is nuts. What the cruise lines have done is make the tip into a service fee that is used to pay the crew People will say they make low wages, work so hard etc. Well first of all I never saw anyone held prisoner on the ship, if you don't like the job don't take it. People that work in burger king make low wages and work very hard, some have 2 or 3 part time jobs with no benefits at all, do you tip them? Second I don't think a tip is necessary for doing your job. I expect the cabin to be clean with the bed made every day etc. When I eat I expect the waiter to take care of me and the food to be OK. The tip is for things above and beyond these basics. Many people here will quote the cruise line contract, well it doesn't say the crew isn't included.

[Reader0108598]

While I agree with the automatic tips placed on our ship board account, I find tipping on top of tips odd. Where does it end? I have worked in tip orientated jobs and would have thought it crazy to be tipped twice for the same job!

 

I'm sorry but I have read that somone tipped extra because the cabin steward kept them in ice, isn't that part of there job and did you not already tip them? I am not cheap but I tip once for a service.

 

Reader

[Can'tstopcruising]

From Celebrity's point of view, lounge entertainers are only as good as the revenue they generate. The waiters treasure good groups because of the tips they generate. The Rendezvous groups are normally "Top Notch", and they deserve to be rewarded by a thirsty and paying public. We certainly don't mind buying while we occupy front row seats.

 

We have absolutely no interest in drinking after dinner. Does this mean we are not to enjoy any of the venues that serve drinks?

[woodofpine]

While I agree with the automatic tips placed on our ship board account, I find tipping on top of tips odd. Where does it end? I have worked in tip orientated jobs and would have thought it crazy to be tipped twice for the same job!

 

I'm sorry but I have read that somone tipped extra because the cabin steward kept them in ice, isn't that part of there job and did you not already tip them? I am not cheap but I tip once for a service.

 

Reader

 

I agree entirely and posters know I advocate for the crewman. When the basic crew compensation is covered extra tipping is fine if your WoWed by performance but not for its own sake for a 'job well done' (that's the job).

 

As for lounge parking, public rooms are public rooms to be used by pax as they please, thirsty or dry matters nothing.

[Bridge Maven]

We have absolutely no interest in drinking after dinner. Does this mean we are not to enjoy any of the venues that serve drinks?

 

I personally think all passengers should feel free to sit in whatever lounge they want without buying a drink. However, if I am in a lounge and say no when asked if I want a drink but that same crew member comes back a few minutes later and asks me again, I feel as if he is sending a subtle message that I should either buy a drink or make my seat available to someone who will. Consequently, if I want to hear the musicians or dance to the music in that venue I will buy a drink that I don't really want and take a few sips of it. Usually when they see that my glass is still almost full an hour later they won't ask me if I want another drink. Now I think of buying a drink that I don't want as a cover charge to hear whoever is performing in that ship's lounge.

 

BTW - I have found this to be a bigger problem on Celebrity than other cruise lines and that is probably because they have more crew per passenger. I realize this is a plus for people who like to drink.

[woodofpine]

I personally think all passengers should feel free to sit in whatever lounge they want without buying a drink. However, if I am in a lounge and say no when asked if I want a drink but that same crew member comes back a few minutes later and asks me again, I feel as if he is sending a subtle message that I should either buy a drink or make my seat available to someone who will. Consequently, if I want to hear the musicians or dance to the music in that venue I will buy a drink that I don't really want and take a few sips of it. Usually when they see that my glass is still almost full an hour later they won't ask me if I want another drink. Now I think of buying a drink that I don't want as a cover charge to hear whoever is performing in that ship's lounge.

 

BTW - I have found this to be a bigger problem on Celebrity than other cruise lines and that is probably because they have more crew per passenger. I realize this is a plus for people who like to drink.

 

And I say - Our - because I appreciate BridgeM's sense that "I guess I ought to order something." and I'n sure I've done the same (even if it's soda water). But that's just silly (and unjustified insecurity of which I've plenty!).

 

From the servers point of view, generating revenue is good. But, they REALLY want to avoid a passenger saying, "Jeez, I turned away the server on first appearance, but then the slacker didn't ask me again for half and hour or more after I got thirsty! Grrr..."

 

They just make their rounds...

[FinelyCruising]

I personally think all passengers should feel free to sit in whatever lounge they want without buying a drink. However, if I am in a lounge and say no when asked if I want a drink but that same crew member comes back a few minutes later and asks me again, I feel as if he is sending a subtle message that I should either buy a drink or make my seat available to someone who will. Consequently, if I want to hear the musicians or dance to the music in that venue I will buy a drink that I don't really want and take a few sips of it. Usually when they see that my glass is still almost full an hour later they won't ask me if I want another drink. Now I think of buying a drink that I don't want as a cover charge to hear whoever is performing in that ship's lounge.

 

BTW - I have found this to be a bigger problem on Celebrity than other cruise lines and that is probably because they have more crew per passenger. I realize this is a plus for people who like to drink.

 

It it were me, I would enjoy the venue and when asked indicate "I don't care for anything this evening."

 

This way the server will know that they should not stop by and ask again unless you catch their attention that you have changed your mind and would enjoy a beverage of some kind.

[ehfl]

O.K., as a newbie who has yet to take the first cruise, I have read with interest all of the posts regarding tipping. I have a few questions that perhaps someone can help answer.

 

It's my understanding that no cruise ship in the world flies under an American flag. This is done in part to avoid compliance with U.S. labor law. Is my research accurate so far?

 

If so, why then, when most Celebrity ships fly under the flag of Malta, in part to avoid American labor laws, does Celebrity utilize the American system of tipping to compensate their employees? Why not use the system in Malta, which according to my guidebook is most often service that is included with the price, or if not, a 5% - 10% tip, which is customary for that country. Celebrity clientele seems to originate from all over the world, as do Celebrity employees, so why choose the American waitstaff compensation method?

 

Yes it is also common to tip in some other Western countries, but not in Asia, Australia or most of Europe (at least when we visited ten years ago). Just wondering why Celebrity imposes an American style compensation system while avoiding American labor laws (?)

 

Ships are registered under foreign flags because of cabotage laws. It's not to avoid labor laws....foreign workers on cruise ships actually get more take-home pay than their American counterparts on the same job on the same ship....US labor laws give less money to US workers...not more.

 

Tipping is not American...the practice is mentioned in the Torah, and goes back to biblical times. The word comes from German (tippen).

 

The reason any company decides to use the gratuity system, is to provide top quality customer service. Travelers often notice that service is poorer in localities where tipping is not customary, and that service is better where tipping is normal. Service industry companies, such as cruise lines, depend on a high level of service to attract customers, and retain existing ones for future cruises.

 

Tipping is a great way to ensure quality service, and good wages. It doesn't cost the customer any more (since it would otherwise be built into the cost of the cruise anyway)....it doesn't cost the cruise line any more money.....it doesn't cost the employee any money (people working for tips generally make more than their non-tipped counterparts).....it's a win-win-win situation.

 

Hardly something to complain about.

[The_Big_M]

Tipping is a great way to ensure quality service, and good wages. It doesn't cost the customer any more (since it would otherwise be built into the cost of the cruise anyway)....it doesn't cost the cruise line any more money.....it doesn't cost the employee any money (people working for tips generally make more than their non-tipped counterparts).....it's a win-win-win situation.

 

Hardly something to complain about.

 

It creates uncertainty and potentially anxiety in some who don't wish to get things wrong/offend, it can create difficult situations where someone is unfamiliar with the common standards - and in travel that's an all too frequent occurrence.

 

It can create significant wage disparities in lower income countries where visitors may tip due to their experiences, even though such an amount vastly exceeds the local salaries.

 

It causes much of the debate and allegations here due to staff being underfunded similarly by visitors who don't come from environments where tips are so great and then leads to claims of 'stiffing' - which is more an intended concept than what happens some of the time.

 

It also may cause prices to ultimately be higher than they would be, since a component of prices are typically determined for psychological reasons rather than a pure "cost-plus" concept. Thus, without the need to include the overhead of wages, the proprietor may set the price at a higher level e.g. $19.95 for convenience reasons. If properly funded as salaries are a cost of the business operations that amount needs to be accounted in the total price.

 

Looks like a lose-win-lose situation (the only likely winner is the business proprietor, and the others may or may not depending on their decisions/situation). I've seen great service from those who are not tipped, and poor service where they are, and vice versa. I would suggest service levels are derived from management recruitment and training, and cultural views than whether someone gets tipped or not.

[Bridge Maven]

Another way to look at tips - A few years ago I went to a spa resort for a week and had an all inclusive package which included lodging, meals, classes, entertainment, use of equipment, and massages. It also included all gratuities and even when I tried to tip the valet who got my car, I was told that he was not allowed to accept additional tips. The rationale of this establishment was that since a spa resort is a place to relax they didn't want their guests to worry about who should be tipped, what was an appropriate tip, and who deserved a larger tip, so they included all gratuities in their price and did not allow any of their employees to accept additional tips. This did not have any event on its level of service because I have never seen such a dedicated hard working group of people who couldn't do enough to make their guests feel special.

[Karynanne]

I think many of the posters here have been comparing Cruise Ship tip policies to land-based venues. There really is no comparison.

 

Employees working on land have homes to return to in the evening. They don't LIVE their work life 24/7. They wouldn't have the stamina or desire to LIVE as a cruiseline employee.

 

Cruiseline employees literally dedicate their lives to this type of work. It's hard, demanding, and selfless. But they do it with a smile, and with dedication. I admire their tenacity.

 

I do know that many of the cruiseline employees read Cruise Critic. I wonder how many of them are amazed how some posters quibble over the tipping policy.

[Sparkle2009]

I think the fact this very system will become illegal in UK as of 1st October evidences how unacceptable it is.

[Bridge Maven]

Another way to look at tips - A few years ago I went to a spa resort for a week and had an all inclusive package which included lodging, meals, classes, entertainment, use of equipment, and massages. It also included all gratuities and even when I tried to tip the valet who got my car, I was told that he was not allowed to accept additional tips. The rationale of this establishment was that since a spa resort is a place to relax they didn't want their guests to worry about who should be tipped, what was an appropriate tip, and who deserved a larger tip, so they included all gratuities in their price and did not allow any of their employees to accept additional tips. This did not have any event on its level of service because I have never seen such a dedicated hard working group of people who couldn't do enough to make their guests feel special.

 

Based on some of the responses, it appears my previous post quoted above was misunderstood. The philosophy of this spa resort is not a substitute for tips, it is just that they were included in the price of the spa resort. In fact, the portion allocated to tips is probably significantly greater than what most passengers pay for tips on a cruise. The difference is that their staff is not allowed to accept additional tips individually for reasons noted in my original post.

 

Since a cruise is suppose to be a very relaxing vacation I think it is a very comparable situation. It is also in line with the philosophy of automatic tipping that is new to Celebrity, even though other cruise lines have been doing it for years.