Greek Economy could affect travel plans

[BigGuy25]

THANKS for the link! Since your cruise would not start or stop in Athens, your risk is much, much less. In a worse-case situation, your cruise line might have to adjust a port stop or two. Your cruise line will watch these situations very carefully. Most of the protests are focused at government sites and not as much at the key tourist places. Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

But ours, unfortunately, DOES begin in Athens. The Pacific Princess on July 2nd. We're not worried, but we will be paying attention. I've reserved a private car service with the same person we used last year when we stopped in Athens on the Ruby Princess. So, we'll have someone we can communicate with right up until the day we depart. So, all we need is an open airport and then an open sea port and we'll be just fine!!!

[islandmandan]

I will take off my policital/economic hat and offer you advice based on a lot of cruise experience. We would have no problem taking a cruise that went to Greek Islands (Mykonos, Santorini, etc) this summer and we love those places. As to Athens, since it is simply a port stop, if there are continuing issues that make that stop a bad idea, the cruise line will adjust the itinerary even if it means a last minute decision to skip Athens. It is very unlikely that the demonstrations in Athens will be replicated on the Greek Islands where the atmosphere is a much more laid-back attitude. We personally would be more concerned if we had a cruise that embarked or disembarked from Pireaus since the possibilty of strikes will be a constant threat for the near future.

 

Hank

Hank, please leave your political expertise (or lack of) off this site. It seems like you have been blessed and fortunate to have the means to travel extensively, and I sure appreciate the information and knowledge that you share on that subject. However, when you give your political views on Cruise Critic, I think your way over the line.

[cruisemom42]

A Princess cruiser is doing a "Live From" thread on the Princess boards. They are scheduled to make port in Athens in a few days. She just received the following from Princess:

 

We received a notice about Athens as follows:

 

"At this time the information we have indicates there should not be any significant problems for our passengers. The earlier protests were not directed at tourists and relate to internal Greek politics, but some tourist sites were impacted. The situation in Athens can change at short notice so we will continue to carefully watch for further developments and provide updates. If it becomes necessary to alter any shore excursions in Athens, the Shorex desk will provide you with updaes to particular tours."

[sunsetbeachgal]

Thx Cynthia...like you we also have a cruise embarking in Athens in September so keeping an eye on it and hoping it all works out OK for everyone who is planning to visit Athe...

[Bagbabe53]

Hopefully, current travelers didn't put down a cash, advance payment/deposit on private tours in Athens or the Greek Isles. Cruise lines will need to be able to adjust schedules and adapt for what's available and where as these strikes impact local services and port stops. It's also good to check on what travel insurance you have and what it will cover or not. Read the policy details and ask questions.

 

Naturally, this year we are taking our first cruise (a large yacht/small ship on Variety Cruises) in the Greek islands and Turkey! Thank God our travel agent backed me up on insisting we insure the trip. Yes it's several hundred dollars to do so, but I feel better having the protection of it, in case things go further South this summer. We are scheduled to cruise the Aegean on the Harmony G. Insured my last two European trips too; when you're spending lots of money for a trip you've dreamed about for months, it's worth it.

[TLCOhio]

Naturally, this year we are taking our first cruise (a large yacht/small ship on Variety Cruises) in the Greek islands and Turkey! Thank God our travel agent backed me up on insisting we insure the trip. Yes it's several hundred dollars to do so, but I feel better having the protection of it, in case things go further South this summer. We are scheduled to cruise the Aegean on the Harmony G. Insured my last two European trips too; when you're spending lots of money for a trip you've dreamed about for months, it's worth it.

 

Great to hear you're well prepared for your first cruise with the insurance. Keep looking and checking on these boards. Here are two key suggestions. FIRST, scroll back through all of the earlier postings. You will see items on the specific ports, etc. SECOND, do a search on this board by each city and you will see lots of postings on various subjects connected with each port stop. Then, after taking the time to get that background, see other experiences, etc., you can post with specific questions in each port city. Be sure to have a title that narrow to your question so that other can know what you are seeking. There are lots and lots of great people and information here on these boards. Don't be shy in asking follow-up questions. Folks are happy to share more when they know what you are seeking.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[Fblack]

Is every worker a member of a Union in Greece? Last week bank workers went on a strike to protest the 3 bank workers who were killed. Now pharmacies will be closed for 2 days.

 

 

May 10 2010: Greece poised for another round of 48-hour strikes

 

New strikes are set to take place in Greece starting May 10 following the rescue package and new austerity measures approved by the Greek parliament over the weekend.

 

The pending 48-hour strike will affect all pharmacies in the country, which will remain closed. Furthermore, Greek media outlets will also be on strike from 11am until 3pm. This will include all private and state-run publications and television channels.

 

Concurrently, a sit-in demonstration was staged by many people in protest against the austerity measures and against the murder of three bank employees on May 5 2010.

 

http://www.sofiaecho.com/2010/05/10/898237_greece-poised-for-another-round-of-48-hour-strikes

[numbersix]

Is every worker a member of a Union in Greece?

 

My personal favourite strike story is when stockbrokers went on strike in Italy !! (1991)

 

Kevin

[hubofhockey]

Greece is referred to by non-socialists (there are still some of us left) as a "nanny state". I thought SNL (Tina Fey) was joking when she said one of the problems is that they all retire when they're 54 in Greece. I looked it up and she was right. The truth is stranger than fiction. It's a totally different culture. I wonder, in a global economy, if all of this wasn't inevitable. We leave in a couple of weeks. I am anxious to get our driver guide's (Paul) take on all of this. Athens is our first port on July 7. Interesting way to start off our ports.

 

edit - from what I understand, the actual austerity measure won't begin to take effect until after the summer.

[Hlitner]

In Greece it can get to the point where there are stikes in order to protest other strikes. The most intelligent comment we have heard from a Greek was a man in the street who said today, "If our problems are caused by debt, how is borrowing $1 Trillion dollars going to help?" The other interesting news item is that the good ole USA is going to help bail-out Greece through the IMF loans (about 17% of IMF obligations belong to the USA) and other "considerations" given by the Fed. One wonders if anyone will be left with enough money to bail out the USA?

 

Hank

[MANURULES]

Not to worry the Chinese will just give us enough to survive and keep their economy going.

 

Fblack:Tina was joking .At least I hope so.She is Greek-American.She should know better.

Sorry to say your research did not produce the correct results.To say "that they all retire when they're 54 in Greece. I looked it up and she was right." is false .

I do not know where you read this stuff but is total BS.

My dad retired 5 years early,since he had 40 years work in, and his "heavy industry" ( read unhealthy) history allowed him to.

He worked the Lignite mines.

He retired at 60, on the fist day of his eligibility.

There are some insane laws about retirement there,most have to do with public employees and women.

Hopefully they took care of it now.

[hubofhockey]

Not to worry the Chinese will just give us enough to survive and keep their economy going.

 

Fblack:Tina was joking .At least I hope so.She is Greek-American.She should know better.

Sorry to say your research did not produce the correct results.To say "that they all retire when they're 54 in Greece. I looked it up and she was right." is false .

I do not know where you read this stuff but is total BS.

My dad retired 5 years early,since he had 40 years work in, and his "heavy industry" ( read unhealthy) history allowed him to.

He worked the Lignite mines.

He retired at 60, on the fist day of his eligibility.

There are some insane laws about retirement there,most have to do with public employees and women.

Hopefully they took care of it now.

 

Tina was referring to government workers as you note, who often retire in their 50s. That is a problem when the Greek government borrows so much to fund those very early retirements. Average retirement age is 61.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10099143.stm

[TLCOhio]

From the Washington Post, this economic columnist provides more details on these problems and raises questions on how long these changes will take to improve in Greece. This column by Robert Samuelson has this headline: "The welfare state's death spiral" with these highlights: "Aging populations have been promised huge health and retirement benefits, which countries haven't fully covered with taxes. The reckoning has arrived in Greece, but it awaits most wealthy societies. Countries cannot overspend and overborrow forever. By delaying hard decisions about spending and taxes, governments maneuver themselves into a cul-de-sac. Euro coins and notes were introduced in 2002. The currency clearly hasn't lived up to its promises. It was supposed to lubricate faster economic growth by eliminating the cost and confusion of constantly converting between national currencies. More important, it would promote political unity. None of this has happened. Multiple currencies were never a big obstacle to growth; high taxes, pervasive regulations and generous subsidies were. As for political unity, the euro is now dividing Europeans."

 

This writer provides an excellent overview on these economic challenges in Greece and for others in the euro area.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/09/AR2010050902443.html

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[TLCOhio]

From the Reuters newswire, they have this headline: "Greek workers call one-day strike May 20" with these highlights: "Greek workers on Wednesday called a 24-hour general strike for May 20, the latest in a series of protests against planned pension cuts linked to an international 110-billion-euro ($139.7 billion) bailout for Greece. Unionists have vowed to stop the pension reform, a key condition in a financial rescue plan for Greece agreed last week with the euro zone and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The walkout is expected to ground flights to and from Greece, disrupt transport and shut down ministries and public services across the country. The unions will convene after the strike to decide on future action."

 

From the Los Angeles Times, they have this headlined story by a reporter in Athens: "In Greece, streets have quieted, but fury remains" with these highlights: "In a nation that has long prided itself on public protest, the convulsions of outrage have quieted for the moment. But anger still is simmering in the streets. Greeks are pledging to keep up strikes and street demonstrations against the government and the austerity measures it passed to secure $146 billion in international bailout cash. Their indignation is rooted not so much in the painful prospect of slashed pensions and salary cuts, which opinion polls indicate will be grudgingly accepted, as in a general sense of betrayal by politicians they regard as having glided through the crisis with impunity."

 

Here are the full stories:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE64B18U20100512?type=marketsNews

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/topofthetimes/topstories/la-fg-greek-protests-20100512,0,1903897.story

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[Fblack]

I have been reading up on the Greek Pension system. Can someone in the know or from Greece answer a question? Basically after 30+/- years of work a union worker can retire with 80% of their salary. What I cannot find out is if and how much they contribute to the retirement system while they are working? Does the government pick up most of the 80%.

[MANURULES]

You are a brave soul.Your question cannot possibly be answered ,by saying this is how it is.The system makes Byzantine bureaucracy look like child's play.

There are untold number of possibilities to determine eligibility,age, and retirement pay.It depends on how many DAYS work you have in your lifetime,

which organization ,from how many different pension offices you

belong to,your pay,your age and special family or work related

circumstances applicable to you ,and this does not even begin to cover this mess.

There is no distinction between union and non union pensions.Its all the same.its your individual circumstances that dictate the result.

Unions there are set up different.

When they say the private workers union is on strike for benefits,it does not mean that the union has negotiated pension or other benefits with an employer,like here in the States.

The unions try to influence the government to change the laws that apply to ALL employees of a certain profession/retirement bureau.

Its a lot more complicated than this ,because believe me the system ,even though it can be characterized as archaic,in reality its impossible to describe.

So the 30 years and 80% is a gross generalization at best, and really not representative of anything.

The government does not pick up anything.It operates as a safety valve of sorts if the different retirement bureaus,run out of money and the like.

Kind of a PBGC here without the insurance premiums coming in.

The funds of those and all programs have been pilfered by all governments .

The real issues are not the pensions,if this is what you are trying to figure out,but government overspending on all projects,the massive tax evasion especially in the private sector,a beyond belief misappropriation of funds by one and all in government.

In the public sector all governments used massive hiring as a vote getting measure just before ALL elections since the 50's.

Public employee jobs(a job for life,you cannot get fired) were used to get votes in all elections,local and national and by doing so inflated present and future obligations for pay ,benefits ,and pensions to unbelievable levels.

Public companies were ,and are, overstaffed by 1000's upon 1000,s percent.

 

The employee and the employer both are supposed to pay into the pension system.Generally speaking.

That,s not the problem,even though many try to trick the system,

Its the devil in the details and a government monster of inadequacy that's causing it.

Among others.

Clear us mud right?

In reality its not as transparent as mud.Get the idea?

[Fblack]

Manurules:

 

Thanks for the info. Sounds like the workers are contributing something to their pensions, but the government spends that money as needed rather than hold it in a special fund for pensioners. Sounds like our Social Security system. The government is a "guarantor" (sort of) and has to come up with the retirement money in the end. So if the government has no money, they need to borrow it or cut pensions. Or force larger contributions from the workers? Not a pretty picture.

[Hlitner]

Manurules, You should be writing for The Economist or a good newspaper. Your description of the problem is extraordinary and we thank you for cleearing up some details. If we read your comments it sounds like even a bail-out will not solve many of the problems and the same issues will repeat themselves within a few years.

 

Hank

[Fblack]

Now Spain joins the action with a general strike called for June 2.

 

"MADRID — Spain's leading labor union has called a civil servants strike next month to protest government plans to cut salaries as part of a plan to reduce the deficit.

 

The General Workers Union said Thursday the stoppage would be staged June 2.

 

Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero on Wednesday announced a 5 percent wage cut for civil servants as part of a deficit-reduction plan to ease worries the country will slide into a debt crisis like that of Greece... "

 

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5irD4zPhHZMR2gWhX_pt0o94S3crwD9FM13UO0

[TLCOhio]

Manurules, You should be writing for The Economist or a good newspaper. Your description of the problem is extraordinary and we thank you for cleearing up some details. If we read your comments it sounds like even a bail-out will not solve many of the problems and the same issues will repeat themselves within a few years. Hank

 

Agree with Hank and fblack that Manurules has provided some helpful and informed insights on what's really happening there in Greece.

 

Sorry to hear that the strikes are spreading to Spain. British Airways is planning more strikes. The unions in Europe love to do lots of strikes and gain publicity for their "causes".

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[TLCOhio]

From the New York Times reporters in Hong Kong in the last few minutes, they have this headline: "Euro Slumps as Jitters Over Greece Return" with these highlights: "The beleaguered euro fell to an 18-month low and global stocks sagged on Friday amid lingering nervousness about the state of European nation’s finances and the pace of the global recovery. On the foreign exchange markets, the euro fell below the $1.25 level, to $1.245 by late morning in Europe, its weakest level against the U.S. dollar since November 2008. Many observers also believe a debt default — or a rescheduling of some of Greece’s debt — is still likely further down the line. This is continuing to weigh on the euro, which has received little respite from the bailout news. Since the start of the year, the European currency has fallen 13 percent against the dollar and 14 percent against the yen."

 

This morning, the Wall Street Journal had the euro dropping down to $1.243.

 

The full story is at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/15/business/15markets.html?hp

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[rich_cathybrock]

Ugh! We are flying British in September and October. I am praying that this is not gonig to turn into a real problem, but am starting to get worried. We fly into Venice via London a day in advance of sailling, and fly home the same way (from Rome) on Colombus day.

 

I am getting jittery about the whole thing...I'd cancel before risking spending a whole day in an airport...

[Fblack]

Tourists have canceled thousands of hotel reservations in Athens. And in Addition to the May 20 general strike they have planned another strike for May 31.

 

May 14, 2010: Greece sets up crisis unit after mass tourism cancellations

 

"ATHENS, Greece — Greece has set up a crisis unit for tourism after nearly 20,000 hotel booking cancellations in Athens alone after protests against government austerity measures, an official said on Thursday.... There are thousands of cancellations because of the incidents of recent days ...

 

The federation announced a second 24-hour strike for May 31 likely to disrupt for a second time the departure of a Maltese-flagged cruise ship which was prevented for hours from leaving Piraeus last month as well...."

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i7LJsUNDhNvBR9YeEPVCFctxYg1w

[TLCOhio]

Ugh! We are flying British in September and October. I am praying that this is not gonig to turn into a real problem, but am starting to get worried. We fly into Venice via London a day in advance of sailling, and fly home the same way (from Rome) on Colombus day. I am getting jittery about the whole thing...I'd cancel before risking spending a whole day in an airport...

 

Don't get too worried, Cathy, it will "all work out". That's part of the Greek-Italian philosophy for life. As a Greek friend told me recently, "Long-term planning in Greece is about thinking where you'll eat lunch that day." They have a different approach and style there in the Med. Tourism is important to what's left of their economies. Some of the strikes are for local "theater" as the unions battle to hang on to the many perks that used to have in better times. They'll put on the "show" with some strikes, but they do need tourist to come and spend money there. Below are a couple of more recent news stories this am.

 

From the Reuters newswire in the last few minutes, they have this headline: "Euro tumbles on debt woes" with these highlights: "The euro hit an 18-month low versus the dollar and European shares fell sharply on Friday on speculation that fiscal austerity in some euro zone countries may stifle economic growth. European authorities announced a massive debt safety net for Greece, Spain and Portugal this week, but investors remain skeptical whether those countries can take the pain of overhauling their poor public finances. 'The euro hasn't derived any benefits from any budget cuts from Spain and Portugal,' said Chris Turner, head of FX strategy at ING, which forecasts the euro will be at $1.15 in six months."

 

From the Business Week/Bloomberg News, they have this headline: "Euro Drops to Less Than $1.25 for First Time Since March 2009" with these highlights: "The euro fell below $1.25 for the first time in 14 months as Deutsche Bank AG said Greece may struggle to repay debt and El Pais reported that France threatened to leave the euro during talks that led to this week’s almost-$1 trillion bailout. The 16-nation currency was poised for its fourth straight weekly drop against its U.S. counterpart as Deutsche Bank AG Chief Executive Officer Josef Ackermann said Greece will require 'incredible efforts' to repay its debts and may not be able to do so in full."

 

There are more details from these full stories:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64C5NJ20100514

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aA1RHpFPLyI4

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[sunsetbeachgal]

The Ruby Princess is in Piraeus (Athens) today...there is a Live From thread now on the Princess Board...will be interesting to see the person's observations (the person writing the Live From is very well traveled!)