Getting What You Pay For

[jgrahamiii]

I'm fairly new to this Board, and fairly new to cruising in general. I've done a one week cruise out of NYC to the Bahamas on the Norwegian Dawn a few years ago with the kids and decided at that time, that the only other cruise I'd consider is one that brought me to a new and different place to sightsee everyday, not just another beach.

 

Having done Hawaii by plane, and Italy by train, we finally opted for a Mediterranean cruise. Looked around at major lines from Costa to Princess to Celebrity to Regent, and many in between. Based mostly on itinerary and time frame, but also on recommendations of others, we settled on a choice between Princess (large ship) and Silversea (small ship). I must say, initially, the Princess seemed far cheaper, even with the 60% price cut on SS. That is, until I did a spreadsheet comparing apples to apples. By the time I added in the airfare, transfers, drinks, tips, etc., etc. to the Princess price, the cost of the two cruises came within $100 of each other (mostly depending on how much of a stupor I decide to be in during this trip). In fairness to Princess, this was based upon their cheapest room with a veranda vs. a Vista on the Cloud. However, in terms of overall room, the Cloud Vista had more square feet than the Princess veranda (is it me, or does Silversea charge way too much of an upgrade to add a tiny little piece of outdoor teak lined space?).

 

Having done the mega-ship, we opted for the smaller ship with less lines, hopefully better food (if maybe less choice), more personalized and better service and an actually more cost controlled environment. We figured we gave up some entertainment options, but being a group of 6 we'd bring our own fun (and what's not to love about liar's poker and kareoke).

 

The point of all this, is that with the 60% off/free airfare deal being offered by Silversea, you could get what is billed as a more intimate luxurous vacation for the same price as a more mainstream mega-line. I don't know what the average Silversea discount was in better economic times, but I'm betting it wasn't 60% off. Furthermore, when we looked at other all inclusive small ship lines like Regent and Seabourn, these were more expensive for similar itineraries (Regent being FAR more expensive - even when pricing in the free excursions - which, from what I read on their website, are only for full fare guest in any event). Oceania was similar in price but did not include alcohol and therefore a fair amount more in reality. Crystal was far more (not as high as Regent), and is only sort of all inclusive (though maybe much better for a non-drinker).

 

When I consider all of this, it comes as no surprise to me that:

 

1. Carviar is no longer available every day from room service,

2. Menu choices are more limited (particularly in La Terrazza) so as to save costs in buying food,

3. The champagne, and possibly wine choices are not as expensive bottles as they once were,

4. Foie gras and truffles don't make their appearance as often, and/or

4. A host of other nits (and some not so nits like the problem of charters - though I'm sure has always been at least somewhat an issue since filling ships is what keeps the lines in business - though may be more prevalent with the cuts in prices making this line more attractive to charters).

 

OTOH, it seems that the extraordinary level of service on the ships has not suffered at all, and may (with the addition of butler service) have actually increased. Most of the staff and their managers seem to be eager to please and will go out of their way to help someone who asks nicely for (though maybe not demands) some little extras. Eveyone's mileage varies of course, and one just hopes that a regular like Duct Tape will be on your ship to help know who and how (and even what) to ask (Duct Tape, You won't happen to STILL be on board the Cloud when it leaves Athens on October 23 will you?). I personally applaud what seems to be Management's decision to try to cut some material costs while keeping the human factor unchanged.

 

So I guess my question is, do people really expect to pay 60% of full fare (near a Princess/Celebrity price point), get the same level of cruise they once paid full (or at least a higher) price for and still have the line stay in business? Having not yet traveled with Silversea, I should not be one to judge, but from all I read, it really seems that we are getting what we are paying for, and perhaps more on the best of days. I could spend $2000 more on Crystal, or $4000 more on Regent and get better food, more expensive wines maybe even better service, I suppose. But then I am hopefully just getting what I paid more for. Seabourn was closer in price (but still significantly more at least when we looked), but seems to be comparable (better in some ways, more lacking in others).

 

I'm not saying Silversea is perfect, or that when there are problems and issues they should not be pointed out and addressed. I'm just saying that perhaps in the days of steep discounts and less than full ships, certain cutbacks should be anticipated and allowed for. During these times, each line has had to make it's choices on how to fill its ships: offer steep discounts but cut luxury level to some degree, or keep the prices high but still offer the highest level of product. By the same token, we as consumers have to decide when and for what we are willing to pay more. There seems room for both approaches, though I do suppose that at some point, cutting too much may take a line out of the "luxury" cruise level.

 

After this rather long post, what do those of you still reading think? Are we getting what we are now paying for? Is it still "luxury" level? Does thei high level of service mean that we getting a value as compared to the other more expensive luxury lines and/or as compared to the cheaper pay-as-you go mainstream lines? I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but I think we can be objective to some degree here even if you personally would rather pay the higher price for the higher level of product.

 

Having nothing really to compare it to, I am expecting to really enjoy my first Silversea trip this October. But I am trying to to set my expectation bar at a reasonable level.... -John

[torst]

You have made a great choice, and despite minor quibbles nothing (neither me or a cruiseline) is perfect. The Silversea experience is a great one! Enjoy the comfort, tranquility and the superb service and have a wonderful time.

 

These forums would be boring if there was nothing to complain about!

[Travelcat2]

Does anyone have any idea why Silversea came in 4th on a Conde Nast poll (with Crystal at #1, Regent at #2 and Seabourn at #3)? I also calculated the scores by what was important to us (food, service and cabins). When recalculated, Seabourn is #1, Regent is #2 and Crystal is #3. . . . leaving Silversea at #4. While I do not put much emphasis on polls, it is a little bit of a concern since we will be sailing on Silversea for the first time in the Fall.

[Keith1010]

John, you have made a number of interesting points.

 

Let me start off by saying that this has been a challenging time for all cruise lines and between the economy and the fact that cruise lines such as Silversea and Seabourn have added additional inventory it has increased the challenge of filling the ships. And like you, folks are shopping around trying to compare like voyages between cruise lines.

 

I happen to be one of those folks who would rather pay more and not see qualiity and service go down.

 

I still believe that the luxury cruise lines do offer a strong quality product. Each one has approached the current sitatuation a little differently.

 

Some have cut costs but done this in a manner that is likely to be transparent to the guest whether that is being more effiiient in the ordering of provisions, or other areas to reduce cost and increase efficiency. Others have made some cuts that are more apparent as you mentioned.

 

Even with the cuts sailing on the cruise lines that you have mentioned still provide a luxurious experience.

 

I have my preferences as to which lines are more luxurious but this is not the place for me to make those comments.

 

My recommendation is to book Silversea over the Princess cruise as the differences will be night and day.

 

And in time as you do future cruises I would encourage you to try some of the other luxury cruise lines so that you can see first hand their differences and similarities.

 

The nice thing in the luxury market is that while there are similarities there are quite a few differences to whether that be in food, entertainment, enrichment, the ships themselves and in other areas.

 

It's sort of like talking about the Ritz Carlton and the Four Seasons Hotels. There are differences and their area similarities. Some like both type of properties while others prefer one over the other. Same goes for luxury cars such as BMW, Lexus and Mercedes as all three offer luxury cars but in their case the drive and the feel are quite different.

 

Bottom line. Even with some cutbacks, you will find Silversea lots better than NCL was and of much higher quality than Princess. If these cruise lines were land based hotels it would be like comparing the Four Seasons with a Hilton Property.

 

Finally, don't over analyze this and this is coming from someone like myself who does like to analyze what is out there before making a decision.

 

Keith

[Paulchili]

Does anyone have any idea why Silversea came in 4th on a Conde Nast poll (with Crystal at #1, Regent at #2 and Seabourn at #3)? I also calculated the scores by what was important to us (food, service and cabins). When recalculated, Seabourn is #1, Regent is #2 and Crystal is #3. . . . leaving Silversea at #4. While I do not put much emphasis on polls, it is a little bit of a concern since we will be sailing on Silversea for the first time in the Fall.

 

I think that you will be the best judge after your cruise; only then will you know what the true ranking is for you (at least as far as Silversea and Regent go).

After all, isn't that all that really matters? Who really cares what CN thinks - I certainly don't.

You will love your Silversea cruise if you allow yourself to do so.

Happy sailings!

[duct tape]

Oh my goodness...exhausting...tomorrow when I am saner..hugs

[pamfj]

Well done analysis, J Graham III--I will be looking forward to your review when you return from your voyage.

[oregon50]

Calling MEOW!.....time for the tape measure.

[CruisinGerman]

Dear friends:

 

In Silversea's heyday, you could order Moet champagne and caviar every half an hour from room service and they would bring it to you no questions asked.

 

Most of the crew (except the pool boys and crew involved in maintenance and marine operations) were European (the stewardesses were from Sweden, Finland, Croatia, etc.).

 

Now you get a different brand of champagne, no caviar, and most of the visible crew are from Asia and India.

 

The only place I thought the crew demographics clashed was in the Le Champagne restaurant on the Spirit last month. There was just something about dining in a purported Relais & Chateau restaurant on a cruise line that is European owned and has its base of operations in Monaco and being served by all Asians and then the Filipino chef coming to the table explaining the meal to us.

 

At least the Maitre D' was French -- but he was only hired to spend a few months this summer on the ship.

 

I actually think the food is better on the new Silversea than in its heyday -- at least for my tastes. At the beginning, the food was very Americanized -- it is now far more international and there is greater variety due to the hot rocks. However, in the old days the buffet room at night was a specialty theme restaurant -- with a different theme and menu each night, and was a very intimate and elegant dining experience. That has changed with La Terraza, which I think is a beautiful experience, especially if you get to sit outside, although the menu is the same every night.

 

Reception and tour desk used to be a lot more personalized. That has also changed somewhat.

 

They used to fly you in the day before and give you a free night at a 5-star hotel and transfers to the hotel and to the ship. That has also changed, except for far flung destinations where they sometimes make this part of the package.

 

The shops were better in the old days (a Bulgari store and an all-purpose boutique that sold practical, good merchandise, versus the very limited H. Stern shop plus another concession that basically sells expensive junk and makes it look nice on display).

 

However, I think prices have actually dropped so that is good news for the consumer and it is indeed an excellent product for the price paid.

 

Also, once you have sailed once on Silversea and become a repeater (Venetian Society member), you can sign up for special offers called Venetian Value Sailings which are e-mails they send you for sailings within the next 30 days. The prices are a steal. We went on Voyage 5016 (Venice to Athens) in June 2010 for $2400 per person mid-ship verandah suite, taxes and port fees included.

 

As far as whether or not you use a verandah, we like to have it even if we don't spend time out there, since it is nice to open the door, have fresh air inside your room and listen to the sea.

 

I think you will enjoy Silversea -- do let us know.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Paulchili]

Gunther,

Thank you for that insight.

Have you sailed on the Europa? If so, what is the predominant nationality of their staff?

Thanks,

Paul

[wripro]

Paul,

 

I would guess Europa's staff is highly German as is its clientele.

 

Silversea is obviously the better choice for the OP as long as Vegas type shows are not important to him.

[TLCOhio]

I'm fairly new to this Board, and fairly new to cruising in general. Based mostly on itinerary and time frame, but also on recommendations of others, we settled on a choice between Princess (large ship) and Silversea (small ship). I must say, initially, the Princess seemed far cheaper, even with the 60% price cut on SS. That is, until I did a spreadsheet comparing apples to apples. By the time I added in the airfare, transfers, drinks, tips, etc., etc. to the Princess price, the cost of the two cruises came within $100 of each other (mostly depending on how much of a stupor I decide to be in during this trip). When I consider all of this, it comes as no surprise to me that:

1. Carviar is no longer available every day from room service,

2. Menu choices are more limited (particularly in La Terrazza) so as to save costs in buying food,

3. The champagne, and possibly wine choices are not as expensive bottles as they once were,

4. Foie gras and truffles don't make their appearance as often, and/or

4. A host of other nits (and some not so nits like the problem of charters - though I'm sure has always been at least somewhat an issue since filling ships is what keeps the lines in business - though may be more prevalent with the cuts in prices making this line more attractive to charters).

After this rather long post, what do those of you still reading think? Are we getting what we are now paying for? Is it still "luxury" level? Does thei high level of service mean that we getting a value as compared to the other more expensive luxury lines and/or as compared to the cheaper pay-as-you go mainstream lines? I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but I think we can be objective to some degree here even if you personally would rather pay the higher price for the higher level of product.

Having nothing really to compare it to, I am expecting to really enjoy my first Silversea trip this October. But I am trying to to set my expectation bar at a reasonable level.... -John

 

Hi, John! You've done a very good and interesting analysis. If you've read through all of my posts, I was not trying to give it any "spin". I showed the pictures and laid out what we got and enjoyed. As noted, I've done three different cruise lines (Seabourn, Crystal & Silversea) and have been very pleased. There have been a few little "slips" with all of them, but overall, we like the combination of both great ports to visit AND highly personalized service on the ship. We did not want a "mass" situation where we had to fight the crowds and mobs.

 

Maybe you won't have caviar or truffles every day, but the food quality and creativity was super excellent for us on the Silver Cloud. Much depends on the Chef and Hotel Director for your specific cruise. Regardless of cruise line and the economy at the time, better ship managers can do more than others in figuring out how to get the job done, well, on a cruise and dealing with their central office managers over budgets, getting certain items supplied, etc. In doing cruise schedules, they cannot just snap their fingers to get every specialized item, instantly, in any port in the world. There are challenges in making those logistics work on a world-wide basis.

 

Also on some of these web posts, there will be people moaning that they didn't get this or that their desserts didn't look as nice. In fact, some of these people don't know or missed it because they went for a lunch ordered off of the menu at The Terrace, that day, as an example. They didn't go through the buffet line!!?? Then, they blame the ship for what they missed because they had their nose up in the air over not wanting to be bothered with a buffet.

 

Don't assume all of the negative comments are totally true and/or that they reflect the actual reality.

 

Also, on a good cruise, if you do more "preparation" and planning, you will get better results, both on the ship and off. Most of the staff on all three of these cruise lines like to help on reasonable special request and to make unique events happen. Just ask!!!

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[jpalbny]

After this rather long post, what do those of you still reading think? Are we getting what we are now paying for? Is it still "luxury" level? Does thei high level of service mean that we getting a value as compared to the other more expensive luxury lines and/or as compared to the cheaper pay-as-you go mainstream lines? I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but I think we can be objective to some degree here even if you personally would rather pay the higher price for the higher level of product.

 

-John

 

Some have cut costs but done this in a manner that is likely to be transparent to the guest whether that is being more effiiient in the ordering of provisions, or other areas to reduce cost and increase efficiency. Others have made some cuts that are more apparent as you mentioned.

 

Even with the cuts sailing on the cruise lines that you have mentioned still provide a luxurious experience.

 

...

 

Bottom line. Even with some cutbacks, you will find Silversea lots better than NCL was and of much higher quality than Princess. If these cruise lines were land based hotels it would be like comparing the Four Seasons with a Hilton Property.

 

Keith

 

 

There is no doubt that cruising has become less expensive. Our first few cruises, more than 15 years ago, cost more in 1990s dollars than a similar itinerary would today. We used to pay nearly $200 per diem each for a 7-night Carribean cruise in an outside cabin +/- veranda in the early 1990s, on Celebrity and NCL. Today that would cost maybe $110-120 per diem. After discounting 2010 dollars for inflation the price drop is rather remarkable.

 

We abandoned those lines 10 years ago largely because we thought the level of service and quality weren't what we had come to expect, and hadn't stayed on par with what we remembered from our first few cruises. We were never sure if that was because things recalled nostalgically are always recalled as being better than they really were, but I suspect we are/were fairly accurate in our recollections. For example - I remember the elaborate midnight buffets on our first few cruises - gone. (Not that we really need them, mind you, but when fares drop something has to go, and that's a pretty noticable change.)

 

Having done 20+ cruises on numerous lines, we perceive a clear quality difference between our favorite lines (SS, Oceania) and our not-quite-as-favorite lines (Celebrity, Princess). We'd rather not see them cut fares any more if it will result in a perceptible drop in quality. We agree that SS is higher quality than Princess, etc, though we don't have a particular problem cruising Princess; it's just not SS. The Hilton vs. Four Seasons analogy is a very good one.

 

As far as the value of SS vs. mainstream pay-as-you go lines, that's a complex issue but for us it's been worth it. We are on the Cloud in September from London to Nice; it's a 12-day trip and the cost was similar to a similar Oceania cruise from Dover to Monte Carlo. The O cruise was 14 days and had a few more ports, but we figured by the time we added up 14 days of extra charges on O, we'd end up spending more than we would on SS.

 

We love O and have never been treated badly, but we have been treated even better on SS. So for jgrahamiii, we do think that it's still "luxury" level and that you do get something extra for your money. I am not sure whether it will remain "worth it" when/if they stop discounting, as the brochure rates for SS are pretty steep...:) And we can't compare the SS experience of today with that of years ago.

[Willem Ruys]

Gunther,

Thank you for that insight.

Have you sailed on the Europa? If so, what is the predominant nationality of their staff?

Thanks,

Paul

This is a better question than you might think. The ship's two Captains are German - and when we sailed in her ours was from the old East Germany (as was the other). The other deck as well as engine officers are German but when we were in her (and by the way although I LOVED the previous EUROPA and used to represent her in the USA) we loathed the new one and jumped ship after four days...the Hotel Manager and Entertainment Officer (cruise director in other ships) were Austrians as were quite a few others in the hotel department. I heard tell smilingly of an "Austrian mafia" running that show. Naturally, the grunt work is performed by the Pilippinos, the most gracious of all crew members I have encountered at sea over the last 20 years...

The EUROPA tariff prices are very high but I know from experience that she is often so poorly booked that HL officers cruises for enormous discounts but even free we wouldn't go near her. And another point - even though fluent in German as an American her passengers let us know in no uncertain terms that we were unwelcome in her.

[duct tape]

jgrahamiii, we have sailed on all the "luxury lines" and keep going back to SS. I am not saying it is better, it just works better for us. It is all individual choice. Sorry, we will not be aboard when you are...fall is the best season at home! Whatever you decide to do, enjoy it and we want a full report!

[unfathomable]

1. Carviar is no longer available every day from room service,

2. Menu choices are more limited (particularly in La Terrazza) so as to save costs in buying food,

3. The champagne, and possibly wine choices are not as expensive bottles as they once were,

4. Foie gras and truffles don't make their appearance as often, and/or

4. A host of other nits (and some not so nits like the problem of charters - though I'm sure has always been at least somewhat an issue since filling ships is what keeps the lines in business - though may be more prevalent with the cuts in prices making this line more attractive to charters).

Caviar was a straight cost-cut. So are switches in Champagne brand. My impression is that other wines dipped in quality a few years ago and have recovered: there's always a range from barely-acceptable to very acceptable and it's worth chatting to the sommelier to find out what they have on a particular cruise. I think part of the rationale for the unchanging La Terrazza menu was to deter a minority who ate there every night and blocked the limited capacity for other guests; I didn't detect ingredient cost-cutting. Foie gras and truffles still show up routinely on menus, and you can special-order pretty much what you would like, with 24 hours' notice. Part-ship charters were always an occasional thing, as you say, to fill ships; but of course on a 280-guest ship, a 100-guest or even 20-guest group is much more noticeable than on a 3,000-plus-guest ship.

[Keith1010]

I just want to add that if you want to sail on a luxury cruise line this really is a good time to do it as there are fantastic rates available on many of the cruise lines.

 

In the end, each person will be the judge as to the level of luxury and the associated value.

 

Keith

[TLCOhio]

Now you get a different brand of champagne, no caviar, and most of the visible crew are from Asia and India.

The only place I thought the crew demographics clashed was in the Le Champagne restaurant on the Spirit last month. There was just something about dining in a purported Relais & Chateau restaurant on a cruise line that is European owned and has its base of operations in Monaco and being served by all Asians and then the Filipino chef coming to the table explaining the meal to us. I actually think the food is better on the new Silversea than in its heyday -- at least for my tastes. At the beginning, the food was very Americanized -- it is now far more international and there is greater variety due to the hot rocks.

However, I think prices have actually dropped so that is good news for the consumer and it is indeed an excellent product for the price paid.

Gunther and Uta

 

We found the quality of the staff, mostly Asian, to be excellent on last month's Silver Cloud experience. On other cruise lines in the past, there were more staff from eastern Europe. To us, the ability to understand and communicate in English is important, plus offering great service with a very positive spirit and skill are the most important factors. We found certain of the staff from Asia and India on the Silver Cloud to be much better in these areas than we experienced at times previously with those from eastern Europe on Seabourn and Crystal.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

For more details, great visuals, etc., from our July 1-16 Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle Silver Cloud experiences:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923