Southwest grounding planes due to Fuselage Rupture (Combined)

[Tralynn]

I would personally rather have to wait and be sure my plane is safe.

 

I hope you all arrive safely and in time to catch your ship. I would contact the enroute number for your cruiseline and keep them informed. Given the number of passengers this may affect, they may keep the ship in port a bit later.

 

Good luck everyone!

[FlyerTalker]

Followup request for cherylandtk: If you find the AD online, could you post a link here for my curiousity. Thanks.

[scottbee]

I heard a report today that some passengers admitted they did not listen to the FA's announcements about the oxygen masks and had no idea what to do. Guess they will listen from now on!

 

It's a huge misconception that you'll die from lack of oxygen. Note that the pilot made the descent from 34,400 feet to 11,000 (very breathable) in just 4 minutes, hitting at one point, a little over 10,000fpm descent; even w/o masks, the passengers would have been just fine.

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA812/history/20110401/2225Z/KPHX/KNYL/tracklog

[ferfoodle]

Does anyone remember the MD-80 groundings in the spring of 2008? American alone had to cancel over 2400 flights until each and every one of their planes had the wiring harnesses inspected. Any airplane, any and all airlines can and will have to go through such processes when one model has a defect, not just the budget airlines.

[kenish]

Scottbee- Not entirely correct (I took a 2-day course on O2 as a pilot, including altitude chamber time).

 

At cruising altitude you will definitely die in 2-3 minutes. That's what happened on the 737 over Greece a few years ago, Payne Stewart's business jet, and several other accidents over the years.

 

Of course the Southwest flight had oxygen masks and descended to an altitude where the air is dense enough. But, you have about 10-15 seconds to put on a mask before you lose consciousness. That can be fatal for people with health issues, or if the plane can't immediately descend to 10,000 or 12,000 feet (terrain, weather, not enough range at the lower altitude). Fortunately the backup for that is other passengers and cabin crew. It sounds like quite a few passengers on the Southwest flight lost consciousness...many did not "pull out the pin to start the flow of oxygen" as they caution before each and every flight.

[FlyerTalker]

Does anyone remember the MD-80 groundings in the spring of 2008? American alone had to cancel over 2400 flights until each and every one of their planes had the wiring harnesses inspected. Any airplane, any and all airlines can and will have to go through such processes when one model has a defect, not just the budget airlines.

I tend to think of a "defect" as an inherently bad design/part/product that will fail under repeated circumstances. Whirl mode on the Electra, square windows on the Comet - those were defects of the airplane. What we likely (and I'm putting on my assumption/prediction hat) have here is a skin failure due to metal fatigue from repeated pressurization cycles. I don't consider the 737 defective in any way - this was a failure of a man-made component, not an inherent design flaw.

[kenexx]

Has there been any word whether or not WN or other airlines will ground and inspect their 737's? That would seem to be the responsible thing to do. Sounds like a case of shoddy maintenance.

 

Wow jump to conclusions much? :rolleyes:

[itsandreas]

Scottbee- Not entirely correct (I took a 2-day course on O2 as a pilot, including altitude chamber time).

 

At cruising altitude you will definitely die in 2-3 minutes. That's what happened on the 737 over Greece a few years ago, Payne Stewart's business jet, and several other accidents over the years.

 

My understanding from the Helios incident the autopsy revealed that many of the passengers were still alive at the time of impact. That was nearly 3 hours after the instigating incident.

 

Like to know what happened in those 3 hours

[cherylandtk]

Followup request for cherylandtk: If you find the AD online, could you post a link here for my curiousity. Thanks.

 

FT, I believe this is the one, effective date Feb 1, 2011, inspections to be accomplished within 4,500-9,000 flight cycles after effective date.

http://www.b737.org.uk/ad-2010-25-06.pdf

Summary:

2010-25-06 - We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for certain Model 737-200, -300, -400, and -500 series airplanes. This AD requires repetitive inspections for cracking of certain fuselage frames and stub beams, and corrective actions if necessary. This AD also provides for an optional repair, which would terminate the repetitive inspections. For airplanes on which a certain repair is done, this AD also requires repetitive inspections for cracking of certain fuselage frames and stub beams, and corrective actions if necessary. This AD results from reports of the detection of fatigue cracks at certain frame sections, in addition to stub beam cracking, caused by high flight cycle stresses from both pressurization and maneuver loads. We are issuing this AD to detect and correct fatigue cracking of certain fuselage frames and stub beams and possible severed frames, which could result in reduced structural integrity of the frames. This reduced structural integrity can increase loading in the fuselage skin, which will accelerate skin crack growth and could result in rapid decompression of the fuselage.

[greatam]

Wow jump to conclusions much? :rolleyes:

 

NOT exactly jumping to conclusions. This is not the first time this has happened with a Southwest plane and they were fined a large amount due to "cracks" in the fuselage. This from an AP article written yesterday.

 

"A similar incident happened in July 2009 when a football-sized hole opened up in flight in the fuselage of another Southwest 737, depressurizing the cabin. The plane made an emergency landing in Charleston, W.Va. It was later determined that the hole was caused by metal fatigue.

 

Afterward, Southwest and the FAA reached an agreement specifying actions the airline would take to prevent another episode, said John Goglia, a former National Transportation Safety Board member and an expert on airline maintenance. The details of that agreement are considered proprietary and haven't been made public, he said.

 

The latest incident "certainly makes me think there is something wrong with the maintenance system at Southwest and it makes me think there is something wrong with the (FAA) principal maintenance inspector down there that after that big event they weren't watching this more closely," Goglia said in an interview.

 

There was "never any danger that the plane would fall out of the sky," Goglia said. "However, anybody on that airplane with any sort of respiratory problems certainly was at risk."

 

Four months before that emergency landing, the Dallas-based airline had agreed to pay $7.5 million to settle charges that it operated planes that had missed required safety inspections for cracks in the fuselage. The airline, which flies Boeing 737s, inspected nearly 200 of its planes back then, found no cracks and put them back in the sky."

[6rugrats]

My understanding from the Helios incident the autopsy revealed that many of the passengers were still alive at the time of impact. That was nearly 3 hours after the instigating incident.

 

Like to know what happened in those 3 hours

What happened? Most people were unconscious due to hypoxia.

[PennyAgain]

Does anyone know? Is WN putting passengers on other airlines?

[Shorex]

Does anyone know? Is WN putting passengers on other airlines?

 

As far as I have found, WN is not putting passengers with reservations on canceled flights on other airlines. However, there is this offer

 

from Continental:

Southwest Ticket Acceptance

 

Continental is offering Southwest Airlines customers affected by the recent announcement to ground certain aircraft for inspection the ability to purchase a non-refundable, standby ticket for $150 each way (origin and destination, including tax). This policy is valid for customers with Southwest tickets purchased on or before April 2, 2011 for travel through Wednesday, April 6, 2011 . To purchase a standby ticket, present your Southwest Airlines ticket to a Continental Airlines Ticket Counter representative at your departure airport.

 

 

[Sargent_Schultz]

As far as I have found, WN is not putting passengers with reservations on canceled flights on other airlines. However, there is this offer

 

from Continental:

Southwest Ticket Acceptance

 

Continental is offering Southwest Airlines customers affected by the recent announcement to ground certain aircraft for inspection the ability to purchase a non-refundable, standby ticket for $150 each way (origin and destination, including tax). This policy is valid for customers with Southwest tickets purchased on or before April 2, 2011 for travel through Wednesday, April 6, 2011 . To purchase a standby ticket, present your Southwest Airlines ticket to a Continental Airlines Ticket Counter representative at your departure airport.

 

 

 

Looks like a deal to me. I doubt SW is putting passengers on other airlines, but will refund your money, so why not?

 

Obviously Continental is attempting to poach customers, but so? I'm pretty sure Continental is not waving bag fees, however.

[copnlpn2]

I honestly thought I'd paid attention during the safety talks on each flight I've ever taken, but I simply cannot recall ever hearing about pulling a pin to begin the oxygen delivery to the mask (Re: "It sounds like quite a few passengers on the Southwest flight lost consciousness...many did not "pull out the pin to start the flow of oxygen" as they caution before each and every flight." as posted by Kenish)

 

I'll be flying Southwest next Wednesday and would like more information about this pin-pulling directive. And you can be sure I'll be listening even more closely to the safety talk this time around!

 

Can someone here enlighten me, please?

[Bill S]

I've never heard of "pulling the pin" either, but I'm guessing it refers to tugging on the clear plastic tubing to which the mask is attached. Just a guess.

[marchanxiety]

You pull on the mask until you see the pin detach above. They do not explain it clearly enough. I got this from reading the pocket folder.

[copnlpn2]

Bill, maybe you and I need hearing aids or a refresher airline safety course. I hope you're right about tugging on the dropped mask...I knew to do that....

 

I must have just posted at the same time as you, marchanxiety...I'll read the info very carefully when I fly on the 13th...in the meantime, does this "pin" stay attached or does it disengage and drop when the mask is tugged upon? I want to make sure I understand this...sorry!

[kenish]

The oxygen mask arrangement is a cup with an elastic band to hold it to your face. It's connected to the O2 source by plastic tubing. There's also a bag near the mask called an accumulator.

 

The "valve" that starts oxygen flowing through the tube is a plastic pin. It's attached to the tubing by a short cord. If the pin isn't pulled out, oxygen won't start to flow.

 

I think how this is explained varies by airline. I think most seatback safety cards illustrate it. Now that I think about it, the verbal instructions are sometimes to "Pull the mask firmly downward (or toward you) to start the flow of oxygen".

 

Two other comments about masks- there are usually 3 or 4 masks in each compartment and they may be a bit tangled when they drop. Also, the accumulator will not inflate (most safety briefings explain that). Good that you pay attention to the briefings, even though you will probably never need to use any of the knowledge. I speculate 90%+ of airline pilots go through their career without ever having a situation requiring masks.

[scottbee]

Scottbee- Not entirely correct (I took a 2-day course on O2 as a pilot, including altitude chamber time).

 

At cruising altitude you will definitely die in 2-3 minutes. That's what happened on the 737 over Greece a few years ago, Payne Stewart's business jet, and several other accidents over the years.

 

Of course the Southwest flight had oxygen masks and descended to an altitude where the air is dense enough. But, you have about 10-15 seconds to put on a mask before you lose consciousness. That can be fatal for people with health issues, or if the plane can't immediately descend to 10,000 or 12,000 feet (terrain, weather, not enough range at the lower altitude). Fortunately the backup for that is other passengers and cabin crew. It sounds like quite a few passengers on the Southwest flight lost consciousness...many did not "pull out the pin to start the flow of oxygen" as they caution before each and every flight.

 

You have about 30-60 seconds of useful Consciousness at 35,000; 1-3 min @ 30,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Useful_Consciousness

 

Now they dropped the plane from 34,400 to 19,700 (where you'd have 5-10 mins) in just 3 minutes and all the way to 11,000 in just 5; so while I wouldn't want to try it, I suspect the 5 minutes they took to get down to 11,000 could have been done w/o oxygen.

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA812/history/20110401/2225Z/KPHX/KNYL/tracklog

 

I'm well aware of the Helios accident, I believe the 1st occurance of a situation where post-9/11 security took down an airliner (cabin crew, aware of what was going on were unable to get through the locked/reinforced cockpit door).

 

If you want to hear what happens when you lose oxygen and start suffering, this incredibly scary recording of ATC to a Kalitta cargo flight is worth listening to:

 

In any case, the WN crew did an exemplary job in getting down to lower altitude.

[kenish]

TUC times are for a healthy person in controlled conditions where breathable air is cut off. A decompression forces air out of the lungs and the surprise / panic response also consumes oxygen out of the bloodstream at a faster than normal rate. Conditions like COPD, asthma, or even a cold reduce things even more.

 

The NASA flight surgeon teaching our class said that there is about 10-15 seconds of TUC in an airliner decompression. Moral of the story...if oxygen masks suddenly drop, put it on and ask questions later.

 

Agree the flight and cabin crew did a great job from all accounts I've heard. They had to fly the rapid descent with a lot of finesse since structural integrity of the plane was no doubt a big concern.

[scottbee]

TUC times are for a healthy person in controlled conditions where breathable air is cut off. A decompression forces air out of the lungs and the surprise / panic response also consumes oxygen out of the bloodstream at a faster than normal rate. Conditions like COPD, asthma, or even a cold reduce things even more.

 

The NASA flight surgeon teaching our class said that there is about 10-15 seconds of TUC in an airliner decompression. Moral of the story...if oxygen masks suddenly drop, put it on and ask questions later.

 

Agree the flight and cabin crew did a great job from all accounts I've heard. They had to fly the rapid descent with a lot of finesse since structural integrity of the plane was no doubt a big concern.

 

Sorry, I wasn't at all doubting the fact that they did a great job. Just trying to put away the myth that you'll die almost instantly in a decompression, which appears to be the media's take on it.

[frugaltravel]

If we are talking "shoddy maintenace" being equal to "large fines" then we could make a case for American Airlines also having "shoddy maintenance."

 

Last August, AA faced a record $24.2 million in fines on for maintenance lapses that grounded its Boeing Co. MD-80s in 2008. This is more than twice the fine that regulators sought from WN earlier. Many fines are routinely reduced, often by half.

[Lookingforfacts]

Now they dropped the plane from 34,400 to 19,700 (where you'd have 5-10 mins) in just 3 minutes and all the way to 11,000 in just 5; so while I wouldn't want to try it, I suspect the 5 minutes they took to get down to 11,000 could have been done w/o oxygen.

.

 

 

People climb Mt. Kilimanjaro (19,000 feet) without supplemental oxygen. I agree people with health issues may get sick (or die) at 19K feet without supplemental oxygen. Obviously I don't agree with your generalized statement that people in general only have 5-10 minutes at 19K feet. People climbing Mt. Kilimajaro are exerting themselves physically. I'd think they'd have a greater need for supplemental oxygen then a passenger sitting on an airline seat.

[FlaGrl4Evr]

I have a SW flt tomorrow from Indy to Tampa. I'm on an expected 47 minute hold to find out the status. I will post back when I have more info as to when some of the planes will be back to fly status. :)