Costa Concordia Unrecoverable

[Tonka's Skipper]

Tonka .... Not all the ship is under water and never has been in fact it is fairly close to 50/50 of what is and what is not!

 

It would be a Massive job to repair but with todays technology and the fact that Fincantieri have many shipyards close by there is still the possibility that the ship could be repaired, whether it would be is a matter for Costa and their Insurance company.

 

 

 

It really doesn't matter whether all the ship is underwater or not, the salt water is traveling thoughout the ship by capillary action and moisture in the air. All the interior panels, tiling etc.etc.etc.. will be wet/delamintaed the wiring and systems will all have to be totally removed.......you can't just cut the wires at some point and reuse the wires and system that were above water,the moisture is make everything questionable at best....the ENTIRE SHIP will have to be rutted to bare steel.

 

 

Can it be done..yes..........will the logistics and the costs make it a viable option.....my opinion is still NO.

 

 

PS. The salvage company has already stated it will take 2 to 4 weeks to remove the 2,300 tons of heavy #6 oil, marine diesel and other oils.

 

 

AKK

[vermontcruisers]

http://www.ilgiornale.it/fotogallery/costa_concordia_foto_sub_/id=3671-foto=1-slideshow=0

(via gCaptain)

 

 

Great link thanks.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Posted on CC HAL Board from RunswithDolphins:

 

Just got off the phone with the Brother-in-law (Senior Salvage Master for Titan Salvage)... It doesn't look good. The ship has sunk a meter in a day and there is an extremely amount of stress on the middle of the ship. The BIL is worried that she will literally break in half. They are rushing to remove all the fuel (which is still on) and they hope to remove most of it tomorrow. The explosions (the ones used to get to the bodies yesterday) were on extreme structural points on the ship and the BIL is angry that they didn't go a foot to the left to avoid the structural steel. The ship is still salvageable, but it will be extremely hard and they have to start in the next few days or he will be turning down the job and returning back to Florida. Mainly because salvage companies don't get paid unless they save the ship... They get 10% of the total value of the ship + cargo (~$57 Million in terms of the Concordia), so it's a good return. So thats my update... Remember, it may not be exactly what is happening. Things are changing every day. I'll keep you update and answer questions if you have any...

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Seems that reports that it may break in the middle are correct.

 

 

Sir I have been involved in major ship accidents like this one, and I find it a bit surprizng that your BIL would want all this put online. Salvage companies play there cards very to tight to the breast and don't release alot of information..

 

 

fuel off in the next day?..........that is plain wrong and I don't beleive you are what you claim to be.

 

Does he know your posting all this?

 

 

AKK

[Tonka's Skipper]

What will actually happen is that the other insurers will pay out initially to settle insureds claims, then will subrogate against Costa and their parent corporation CCL, even banding together for a class action if need be.

 

 

Duck lite, you have the maritime insurance/legal background.............it has been my exprience that the passinger contracts are pretty much iron clad.........and the claims will be settled in Italy and under the Athens convention.

 

Is it still possible they can bring claim againist Carinval/Costa in the States?

 

 

AKK

[shipfriend_max]

She will be floated' date=' the question is if the damage and logestics will make it impossble to refit her.............there is good opinion on both sides.

 

I know I think it will be scrapped..but this is a old Merchant Mariner here...........I would love to see her sail again.........that easy old thing about sailors and love affairs with ships.;)

 

 

Please back read you will see the discussion.

 

 

AKK[/quote']

 

Me too! Why should the ship sink entirely? Just have a look at Giglios weather forecast:

http://www.wetter.com/wetter_aktuell/wettervorhersage/wettervorhersage_details/?id=IT0TO0149&d=0&prev=3days

 

http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/Italy/GiglioPorto/Wind.htm

 

Just think of the euphoria of 2006 when the ship was delivered - it would be too sat if she would be scrapped! :(:(:mad::mad:

 

But just let's hope - it's not impossible.

[sidari]

It will be very interesting to see them pump off All the fuel in One day! news reports says anything up to 4 weeks! just where do people get their Inaccurate Information from ?

 

Tonka ... yes it would be a Massive undertaking but one which Fincantieri would have no problem with.

[ducklite]

Duck lite' date=' you have the maritime insurance/legal background.............it has been my exprience that the passinger contracts are pretty much iron clad.........and the claims will be settled in Italy and under the Athens convention.

 

Is it still possible they can bring claim againist Carinval/Costa in the States?

 

 

AKK[/quote']

 

I'm not a lawyer, need to put that right upfront.

 

There have been numerous successful claims brought against the Carnival Corporation (CCL) in US District Courts. US courts will overturn "contracts" when the contract is so one-sided or the conduct of the defendant was egregious and performed with malice (and I believe there is a good argument that the captain acted "with malice" under the legal definition), and was so outrageous as to offend the sensibilities of the common man.

 

This is not someone who slipped on a wet pool deck (a reasonable man would expect a pool deck to be wet) but numerous third party claims based on a cause of action where the defendants were injured (again using the legal definition) by the outrageous behavior of an officer of the corporation. An officer acts as an agent, and legally IS the corporation, so therefore I don't believe they will even have to prove that Costa/CCL knew of these fly by's happening in the past.

 

There are so many different sets of law involved here that I think it will take over 10 years to sort it all out. My educated guess is that the legal costs alone will be in the hundreds of millions. I suspect that the third party liability insurer will try to settle as many smaller claims as possible. I'm also not sure that the limits of liability by the insurer will be enough to cover all claims. And if there is an environmental impact, all bets are off.

 

I do believe that by the time all is said and done, CCL will have to dig into their coffers to payout injured parties.

 

I also believe that this might force changes to cruise contract laws as various countries look closely at the implications of not making those changes.

[ducklite]

It will be very interesting to see them pump off All the fuel in One day! news reports says anything up to 4 weeks! just where do people get their Inaccurate Information from ?

 

Tonka ... yes it would be a Massive undertaking but one which Fincantieri would have no problem with.

 

I agree that there's no way it will take a day, although four weeks might be a bit of an exaggeration. Based on my personal experience working in an industry that performs pump offs of large amounts of fuel and other contaminants before commencing repairs on heavy duty equipment, it would take a day, two on the outside if nothing was underwater and there was reasonable access to all holding tanks. Given that they are underwater and some access might be difficult, I'd think 2-3 weeks would be a better estimate.

[Tonka's Skipper]

It will be very interesting to see them pump off All the fuel in One day! news reports says anything up to 4 weeks! just where do people get their Inaccurate Information from ?

 

Tonka ... yes it would be a Massive undertaking but one which Fincantieri would have no problem with.

 

 

Well we will have to see what happens!:)

 

 

AKK

[Tonka's Skipper]

I'm not a lawyer, need to put that right upfront.

 

There have been numerous successful claims brought against the Carnival Corporation (CCL) in US District Courts. US courts will overturn "contracts" when the contract is so one-sided or the conduct of the defendant was egregious and performed with malice (and I believe there is a good argument that the captain acted "with malice" under the legal definition), and was so outrageous as to offend the sensibilities of the common man.

 

This is not someone who slipped on a wet pool deck (a reasonable man would expect a pool deck to be wet) but numerous third party claims based on a cause of action where the defendants were injured (again using the legal definition) by the outrageous behavior of an officer of the corporation. An officer acts as an agent, and legally IS the corporation, so therefore I don't believe they will even have to prove that Costa/CCL knew of these fly by's happening in the past.

 

There are so many different sets of law involved here that I think it will take over 10 years to sort it all out. My educated guess is that the legal costs alone will be in the hundreds of millions. I suspect that the third party liability insurer will try to settle as many smaller claims as possible. I'm also not sure that the limits of liability by the insurer will be enough to cover all claims. And if there is an environmental impact, all bets are off.

 

I do believe that by the time all is said and done, CCL will have to dig into their coffers to payout injured parties.

 

I also believe that this might force changes to cruise contract laws as various countries look closely at the implications of not making those changes.

 

 

 

I am not a lawyler either, just a old ex deep sea sailor and a marine surveyor.

 

I was thinking, as I said before,a lot of this will rest on Costa and the what seems to be outragious actions of the Master. I felt that is was more important if Costa did know about them and permitted it to continue, rather then if they did'nt know.

 

Seems is will indeed by a bird nest to straighten out! I bet all the lawylers are rolling their hands.*G*

 

 

AKK

[shipfriend_max]

yes, around 2-3 weeks are considered for the pumping of the fuel - and after that, we will see...

But I think there's no storm at Giglio! ;)

[Tonka's Skipper]

I agree that there's no way it will take a day, although four weeks might be a bit of an exaggeration. Based on my personal experience working in an industry that performs pump offs of large amounts of fuel and other contaminants before commencing repairs on heavy duty equipment, it would take a day, two on the outside if nothing was underwater and there was reasonable access to all holding tanks. Given that they are underwater and some access might be difficult, I'd think 2-3 weeks would be a better estimate.

 

 

 

We have to add to this problem the heavy 6 oil that will have to be heated or in some way diluted in order to pump it off........Titan is a excellent salvage group, but it will take a good deal of time.

 

AKK

[ltalessi]

I'm not a lawyer, need to put that right upfront.

 

There have been numerous successful claims brought against the Carnival Corporation (CCL) in US District Courts. US courts will overturn "contracts" when the contract is so one-sided or the conduct of the defendant was egregious and performed with malice (and I believe there is a good argument that the captain acted "with malice" under the legal definition), and was so outrageous as to offend the sensibilities of the common man.

 

This is not someone who slipped on a wet pool deck (a reasonable man would expect a pool deck to be wet) but numerous third party claims based on a cause of action where the defendants were injured (again using the legal definition) by the outrageous behavior of an officer of the corporation. An officer acts as an agent, and legally IS the corporation, so therefore I don't believe they will even have to prove that Costa/CCL knew of these fly by's happening in the past.

 

There are so many different sets of law involved here that I think it will take over 10 years to sort it all out. My educated guess is that the legal costs alone will be in the hundreds of millions. I suspect that the third party liability insurer will try to settle as many smaller claims as possible. I'm also not sure that the limits of liability by the insurer will be enough to cover all claims. And if there is an environmental impact, all bets are off.

 

I do believe that by the time all is said and done, CCL will have to dig into their coffers to payout injured parties.

 

I also believe that this might force changes to cruise contract laws as various countries look closely at the implications of not making those changes.

Since there are videos of the same ship, similar ships doing the same thing, satellite tracks as well, I thing it no longer shocks the conscious of the common man... JMHO

[ducklite]

We have to add to this problem the heavy 6 oil that will have to be heated or in some way diluted in order to pump it off........Titan is a excellent salvage group' date=' but it will take a good deal of time.

 

AKK[/quote']

 

Interesting. If they try to use a fracking method they risk rupture to the pipes, but heating will be difficult with so much of the system submerged in cold sea water. If you hear more on the methods they use, please let me know, it will be intersting to see how it plays out for them.

[ducklite]

Since there are videos of the same ship, similar ships doing the same thing, satellite tracks as well, I thing it no longer shocks the conscious of the common man... JMHO

 

The common man wasn't aware of this practice, so it is shocking.

[nellydean]

I can't see any way that the ship is recoverable, apart from the damage caused by the rock, the rescue teams have been blowing chunks out of it all over the ship, so it would be a patchwork of repairs.

 

Anyway, I think it would be less damaging to Costa to scrap the ship and start afresh, than to continue with a (no doubt, renamed, refurbished vessel) that has been tainted with 30-plus lost souls, including that of a 5-year-old girl.

[DinghyRacer]

Interesting. If they try to use a fracking method they risk rupture to the pipes, but heating will be difficult with so much of the system submerged in cold sea water. If you hear more on the methods they use, please let me know, it will be intersting to see how it plays out for them.

 

I believe the recovery vessel(s) pump in steam and pump out the warm and therefore more fluid fuel.

[FrankNJ]

Yes a 5 year old girl is still missing ! And yet there is deep concern over the captains 25 year old goomade . Did she get off OK in those heels ?

Disgrazia !

[chicy724]

The insurance companies will probably pay off Costa, and then they will own the ship/wreck. Then the insurance companies will look for the best deal to recover something, either from wreckers/salvagers or from refurbishers. The final decision on whether it will ever sail again for some line may be some way down the road after all the calculations have been made.

 

The insurance co would be better off finding a museum or something that would want to buy the ruins, because this one is going down in history for sure.

The story gets worse and worse... and I am sure there's going to be a movie about it!

[ducklite]

I believe the recovery vessel(s) pump in steam and pump out the warm and therefore more fluid fuel.

 

Is there a concern over craking tubing or tanks by introducing hot steam into them? I'm assuming there has to be some pressure behind it--is there a provision for backflow into a secondary holding tank near the start of the system to avoid over pressurization? Just curious.

[Jimsedge]

I'm not a lawyer, need to put that right upfront.

 

There have been numerous successful claims brought against the Carnival Corporation (CCL) in US District Courts. US courts will overturn "contracts" when the contract is so one-sided or the conduct of the defendant was egregious and performed with malice (and I believe there is a good argument that the captain acted "with malice" under the legal definition), and was so outrageous as to offend the sensibilities of the common man.

 

This is not someone who slipped on a wet pool deck (a reasonable man would expect a pool deck to be wet) but numerous third party claims based on a cause of action where the defendants were injured (again using the legal definition) by the outrageous behavior of an officer of the corporation. An officer acts as an agent, and legally IS the corporation, so therefore I don't believe they will even have to prove that Costa/CCL knew of these fly by's happening in the past.

 

There are so many different sets of law involved here that I think it will take over 10 years to sort it all out. My educated guess is that the legal costs alone will be in the hundreds of millions. I suspect that the third party liability insurer will try to settle as many smaller claims as possible. I'm also not sure that the limits of liability by the insurer will be enough to cover all claims. And if there is an environmental impact, all bets are off.

 

I do believe that by the time all is said and done, CCL will have to dig into their coffers to payout injured parties.

 

I also believe that this might force changes to cruise contract laws as various countries look closely at the implications of not making those changes.

 

I'm not a lawyer either...but I think the one aspect you miss is jurisdiction. Costa is a seperate legal entity, not incorporated in the US, even if its parent is. The ship did not leave from a US port and was not subject to any US laws. The majority of passengers were not US Citizens. I don't think it would ever make its way into a US court.

[shipfriend_max]

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/fo0118_concordiasalvage.jpg

 

That's an interesting fact...

[ducklite]

I'm not a lawyer either...but I think the one aspect you miss is jurisdiction. Costa is a seperate legal entity, not incorporated in the US, even if its parent is. The ship did not leave from a US port and was not subject to any US laws. The majority of passengers were not US Citizens. I don't think it would ever make its way into a US court.

 

 

Costa's parent, Carnival Corp (CCL) is domiciled in the US. There is no mistaking how closely tied together the companies are, as CCL insured the hull, and you can't insure something you don't own. Bottom line, CCL owned it, so they were responsible for what happened on it.

[ghstudio]

Costa's parent, Carnival Corp (CCL) is domiciled in the US. There is no mistaking how closely tied together the companies are, as CCL insured the hull, and you can't insure something you don't own. Bottom line, CCL owned it, so they were responsible for what happened on it.

 

If Carnival Corporation provided funding to Costa for the ship under a formal agreement, they could buy insurance to protect their investment. They would have the same liability as your bank has on your house, or your finance company has on your car.....although it is common for my examples to be insured fully by the owner, not the lender.

[ducklite]

If Carnival Corporation provided funding to Costa for the ship under a formal agreement, they could buy insurance to protect their investment. They would have the same liability as your bank has on your house, or your finance company has on your car.....although it is common for my examples to be insured fully by the owner, not the lender.

 

Exactly--even if you don't pay your insurance and the lender takes a policy out on your car or home, they still bill it back to you and it's still insured in your name with the lender as a third party insured. CCL was the insurer of the hull, and I kind of doubt that it was because Costa missed a premium payment.