Uniall Posted February 25, 2012 #351 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) This is quite news worthy http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9103705/Concordia-captain-changed-ships-speed-for-dinner-with-ex-dancer.html In my opinion, this short article contains the clues that could ultimately lead to what professional investigators and prosecutors call "the smoking gun." Edited February 25, 2012 by Uniall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniall Posted February 25, 2012 #352 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Does the Italian justice system have a "previous trial" similar to our Grand Jury system whereby the state provides proof that the defendants should be charged with a crime and must go to trial? If so, at least here in the U.S., the Grand Jury is secret and participants are prohibited from commenting. Is this different in Italy ? :confused: As explained to me by former Italian colleagues, the Italian Criminal Justice system has duplicate and triplicate layers involving the prosectorial action by both executive prosecutors and judicial judges (acting in the stead of Anglo/American grand juries ala French Codal system). The investigation and preliminary probable cause activity can be prosectuor, judge and or a mix of the both. Afterwards, the duplicative and triplicative layers can be repeated at the trial stage and again at the appeal stage. When I questioned the reasons for such a complicated system, the answers seemed to infer (but never aver) that it was to allow investigation/prosecution to succeed despite bribery and/or intimidation activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganMars Posted February 25, 2012 #353 Share Posted February 25, 2012 My understanding is that unlike the legal system in the USA, which is based on Englsh Common Law, the Italian system is based on the much older Roman Law. However, it is not that simple. Below are three links that I have been reading that others may find informative. Wikipedia has a diagram that may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Italy The legal history of Italy: http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/law508/ItalianLegalHistory.htm And from Andrea Scella, University of Udine Faculty of Law, Italy: The Three Most Important Features of Italy’s Legal System that Others Should Understand: http://www.ialsnet.org/meetings/enriching/scella.pdf A lot more complex, but then our system probably looks pretty complex to others, or even to people in our own country who haven't had much legal experience. Morgan Mars As explained to me by former Italian colleagues, the Italian Criminal Justice system has duplicate and triplicate layers involving the prosectorial action by both executive prosecutors and judicial judges (acting in the stead of Anglo/American grand juries ala French Codal system). The investigation and preliminary probable cause activity can be prosectuor, judge and or a mix of the both. Afterwards, the duplicative and triplicative layers can be repeated at the trial stage and again at the appeal stage. When I questioned the reasons for such a complicated system, the answers seemed to infer (but never aver) that it was to allow investigation/prosecution to succeed despite bribery and/or intimidation activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyjonesrugrat Posted February 25, 2012 #354 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I dont think that there will be much in the way of legal proceedings just now and there will be a stay to allow more investigation of the incident. It might must be the opening remarks and then a further extension to allow more time Just my thoughts.... regards :):):) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniall Posted February 26, 2012 #355 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I dont think that there will be much in the way of legal proceedings just now and there will be a stay to allow more investigation of the incident. It might must be the opening remarks and then a further extension to allow more time Just my thoughts.... regards :):):) Davy The thing that makes it difficult for those of us familiar with the Anglo/American criminal justice system is that the Italian system is an amalgamation of legal systems that directly involve police, prosecutors and judges in the investigation stage. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks247 Posted February 26, 2012 #356 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If anyone is interested, the chart to reference when examining Costa Concordia's final track is It74 (B), Porti Dell'Argentario E Dell'Isola Del Giglio - Porto Del Giglio VP The actual AIS track of CC can be viewed at the QPS website: http://www.qps.nl/display/qastor/2012/01/17/20120117_stranding The navigators left no room for error. There was also a 20-23 mp/h ENE breeze at the time of the incident, which pushed the vessel on the rocks just North of the port. Also compare the track followed on August 14, 2011, which was equally unsafe. Apparently Costa's shorebased operation dept does not review vessels tracks as this would have raised red flags and resulted in disciplinary action. Other cruise lines do review vessels tracks downloaded from electronic chart systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplmac Posted February 26, 2012 #357 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The actual AIS track of CC can be viewed at the QPS website: http://www.qps.nl/display/qastor/2012/01/17/20120117_stranding The navigators left no room for error. There was also a 20-23 mp/h ENE breeze at the time of the incident, which pushed the vessel on the rocks just North of the port. Ah yes, a breeze like that would def. have some impact Does anyone know what the tidal state was, when it happened? Hi tide? Lo Tide? Mid Tide? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyitsmema Posted February 26, 2012 #358 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat. http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRL_Joanie Posted February 26, 2012 #359 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat. http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster The photos we have from a video taken and sent to the Minnesota TV station to pass on to the family, show Mr and Mrs Heil 2 people back from the doors to Lifeboat # 6. This was one of the 3 life boats that was unable to launch:( Our guess is that they tried to make it to the other side to try and board another life boat. Obviously, they did not make it:( Joanie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDSue Posted February 26, 2012 #360 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat. http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster That's extremely sad to think that they were waiting their turn to get off and just didn't make it off in time. When I watched the special on the Discovery Channel, they interviewed a couple who went from lifeboat to lifeboat and they were all full. Then some went to the other side of the ship to try the other side, but the angle was so steep, it might have been impossible for some. One of the couples who swam to shore said the ship was tipping to the point that they would be underwater if they didn't jump when they did. The Heils were an elderly couple and I can imagine that swimming in the freezing cold water wasn't an option for them It seems likely that they were on the side of the ship that slipped underwater as people were still waiting to board a lifeboat. It just makes me angry that the captain didn't order abandon ship sooner. It seems like even a few minutes sooner could have been a matter of life and death for the people who perished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDSue Posted February 26, 2012 #361 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The photos we have from a video taken and sent to the Minnesota TV station to pass on to the family, show Mr and Mrs Heil 2 people back from the doors to Lifeboat # 6. This was one of the 3 life boats that was unable to launch:( Our guess is that they tried to make it to the other side to try and board another life boat. Obviously, they did not make it:( Joanie excellent observation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingee Posted February 26, 2012 #362 Share Posted February 26, 2012 How sad is that this couple did try to get off the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozcruiser1 Posted February 26, 2012 #363 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat. http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster I was looking at some other photos in a new article in the UK daily mail and by chance located the Heils in one of the photo in the article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086831/Costa-Concordia-cruise-ship-pictures-Trapped-survivor-Manrico-Giampedroni-airlifted-safety.htm (That link to the UK Daily is not working now) It too has been passed onto the TV news station to pass onto the family. Mr Heil can be seen wearing his brown cap centre pic beyond the grey haired gentleman and Mrs Heil is seen in front of her husband, wearing glasses looking upwards . For them to be so close to the front of the passengers preparing to board the lifeboat and then for them and others not to be able to board that lifeboat is just so tragic. It has been suggested by others that the number 6 seen in red would indicate that this lifeboat was on the port side (high side of the listing ship) and was thus unable to be lowered due to the list. I have posted the link to the photo rather than post the actual photo here out of respect to their family. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/15/article-2086831-0F7834AE00000578-619_964x623.jpg The issue of life boats being unable to be lowered on a listing ship is one of the manny issues that MUST be addressed by the cruise industry. I have no engineering or design knowledge BUT there must be a solution to this issue. It is pointless having enough life boats for all passengers if some of them are unable to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg-nc Posted February 26, 2012 #364 Share Posted February 26, 2012 New week, a new story from the captain's blonde. Sounds like she has told so many stories that she can't keep them straight anymore. Costa Concordia blonde tells about her relationship with captain Earlier she has a room key to her own room and her stuff being in the captain's cabin was "all lies". Now it is her stuff was in the captain's cabin while waiting for a room to open up. Earlier she never had a romantic relationship with the captain, now she is sharing long passionate kisses with him in his cabin. What will her story be next week? Stay tuned to "As the Captain's Blonde turns"... the never ending story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel Haul Posted February 26, 2012 #365 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) My understanding is that unlike the legal system in the USA, which is based on Englsh Common Law, the Italian system is based on the much older Roman Law. However, it is not that simple. Below are three links that I have been reading that others may find informative. Wikipedia has a diagram that may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Italy The legal history of Italy: http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/law508/ItalianLegalHistory.htm And from Andrea Scella, University of Udine Faculty of Law, Italy: The Three Most Important Features of Italy’s Legal System that Others Should Understand: http://www.ialsnet.org/meetings/enriching/scella.pdf A lot more complex, but then our system probably looks pretty complex to others, or even to people in our own country who haven't had much legal experience. Morgan Mars To be accurate you would also have to factor in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union Edited February 26, 2012 by Keel Haul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel Haul Posted February 26, 2012 #366 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) I dont think that there will be much in the way of legal proceedings just now and there will be a stay to allow more investigation of the incident. It might must be the opening remarks and then a further extension to allow more time Just my thoughts.... regards :):):) The Judge will set a time line to trial, he will also instruct on the disclosure of evidence. IMO at best only part of the black box(s) info has been leaked, if I am correct :eek: and they contain a "smoking gun" re Schettino it is possible there will not be a trial.My interest is if fresh charges are brought under the Italian version of the UK Corporate Manslaughter law and if this happens will the parent company have a strong enough fire wall. Edited February 26, 2012 by Keel Haul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplmac Posted February 26, 2012 #367 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Then some went to the other side of the ship to try the other side, but the angle was so steep, it might have been impossiblefor some. One of the couples who swam to shore said the ship was tipping to the point that they would be underwater if they didn't jump when they did. All of which makes me think that, when my ship is going down I'll be keeping a keen eye on not just rate of sinking -but on the angle of her list and to which side! When floors become walls-at-45-degrees, it gets a tad difficult to walk on them. ;) I will be on the upper side of the hull long before that, regardless of where my assigned muster station is and no officious crew member is going to order me to my death as a drowned rat on the wrong side of the ship, I'm sorry. :) If I decide to cruise again. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janneke Posted February 26, 2012 #368 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Does anyone know what the tidal state was, when it happened? Hi tide? Lo Tide? Mid Tide? . In the med sea there is practically no tide, at best they have 1 (one) meter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquil Waters Posted February 26, 2012 #369 Share Posted February 26, 2012 .....and if this happens will the parent company have a strong enough fire wall. I certainly hope not! The parent company certainly knew about close to land "salutes" and apparently it was common knowledge that captains "entertain" females on board when their wives are safely home. And seeing as how the captain slowing down to enjoy his time with said female and then speeding up for salute was one of the things found on investigation. Plus the distraction of female on bridge at time of disaster. All can and should come back on Costa for these policies. I can only relate it to my work. What about a hospital that allowed surgeons to have female companions in the OR and then the distraction of the female led -in part - to a tragedy? Would the hospital be responsible for the policy as well as the surgeon? I am thinking that would be a resounding yes... The same should apply to Costa/CCL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganMars Posted February 26, 2012 #370 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Yes, absolutely. Thank you. To be accurate you would also have to factor in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel Haul Posted February 26, 2012 #371 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I certainly hope not! The parent company certainly knew about close to land "salutes" and apparently it was common knowledge that captains "entertain" females on board when their wives are safely home. And seeing as how the captain slowing down to enjoy his time with said female and then speeding up for salute was one of the things found on investigation. Plus the distraction of female on bridge at time of disaster. All can and should come back on Costa for these policies. I can only relate it to my work. What about a hospital that allowed surgeons to have female companions in the OR and then the distraction of the female led -in part - to a tragedy? Would the hospital be responsible for the policy as well as the surgeon? I am thinking that would be a resounding yes... The same should apply to Costa/CCL. Tranq I think I was a bit vague, the fire wall is between Costa and Carnival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snausman Posted February 26, 2012 #372 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The photos we have from a video taken and sent to the Minnesota TV station to pass on to the family, show Mr and Mrs Heil 2 people back from the doors to Lifeboat # 6. This was one of the 3 life boats that was unable to launch:( Our guess is that they tried to make it to the other side to try and board another life boat. Obviously, they did not make it:( Joanie Joanie, this is just so sad. THank you for pointing it out. Laura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquil Waters Posted February 26, 2012 #373 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Tranq I think I was a bit vague, the fire wall is between Costa and Carnival. Ahhh. I did misunderstand. I am not sure how I feel about that firewall. If CCL was aware of salutes and captains having female guests, then I guess I still hope the firewall doesn't hold. If they had no knowledge (hard to believe) then i guess I would feel it was OK for the buck to stop with Costa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBestIsYetToCome Posted February 26, 2012 #374 Share Posted February 26, 2012 How sad is that this couple did try to get off the boat. SO sad. My heart goes out to their family members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRL_Joanie Posted February 26, 2012 #375 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I certainly hope not! The parent company certainly knew about close to land "salutes" and apparently it was common knowledge that captains "entertain" females on board when their wives are safely home. And seeing as how the captain slowing down to enjoy his time with said female and then speeding up for salute was one of the things found on investigation. Plus the distraction of female on bridge at time of disaster. All can and should come back on Costa for these policies. I can only relate it to my work. What about a hospital that allowed surgeons to have female companions in the OR and then the distraction of the female led -in part - to a tragedy? Would the hospital be responsible for the policy as well as the surgeon? I am thinking that would be a resounding yes... The same should apply to Costa/CCL. As per NUMEROUS Media reporting that Schettino slowed down and sped up, that is FALSE INFORMATION!!! AIS recordings from various sources have PROVEN those False Media Claims/Reports to be false!! Please watch this in its entirety and note both the speeds and the time line: http://news.qps.nl.s3.amazonaws.com/Grounding+Costa+Concordia.wmv Here is a more detailed and more recent one to watch: http://news.qps.nl.s3.amazonaws.com/Grouding+Costa+Concordia+January+13+2012+AIS+Reconstruction+by+QPS.wmv You can see more here on their web site: http://www.qps.nl/display/qastor/2012/01/17/20120117_stranding If you do a Google Search under AIS Costa Concordia Timeline you will find even more that disprove the media reports. Joanie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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