Concordia News: Please Post Here

[Uniall]

This is quite news worthy http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9103705/Concordia-captain-changed-ships-speed-for-dinner-with-ex-dancer.html

 

In my opinion, this short article contains the clues that could ultimately lead to what professional investigators and prosecutors call "the smoking gun."

Edited February 25, 2012 by Uniall

[Uniall]

Does the Italian justice system have a "previous trial" similar to our Grand Jury system whereby the state provides proof that the defendants should be charged with a crime and must go to trial? If so, at least here in the U.S., the Grand Jury is secret and participants are prohibited from commenting. Is this different in Italy ? :confused:

 

 

As explained to me by former Italian colleagues, the Italian Criminal Justice system has duplicate and triplicate layers involving the prosectorial action by both executive prosecutors and judicial judges (acting in the stead of Anglo/American grand juries ala French Codal system). The investigation and preliminary probable cause activity can be prosectuor, judge and or a mix of the both.

 

Afterwards, the duplicative and triplicative layers can be repeated at the trial stage and again at the appeal stage.

 

When I questioned the reasons for such a complicated system, the answers seemed to infer (but never aver) that it was to allow investigation/prosecution to succeed despite bribery and/or intimidation activity.

[MorganMars]

My understanding is that unlike the legal system in the USA, which is based on Englsh Common Law, the Italian system is based on the much older Roman Law. However, it is not that simple. Below are three links that I have been reading that others may find informative.

 

Wikipedia has a diagram that may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Italy

 

The legal history of Italy: http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/law508/ItalianLegalHistory.htm

 

And from Andrea Scella, University of Udine Faculty of Law, Italy:

The Three Most Important Features of Italy’s Legal System that Others Should

Understand: http://www.ialsnet.org/meetings/enriching/scella.pdf

 

A lot more complex, but then our system probably looks pretty complex to others, or even to people in our own country who haven't had much legal experience.

 

Morgan Mars

 

As explained to me by former Italian colleagues, the Italian Criminal Justice system has duplicate and triplicate layers involving the prosectorial action by both executive prosecutors and judicial judges (acting in the stead of Anglo/American grand juries ala French Codal system). The investigation and preliminary probable cause activity can be prosectuor, judge and or a mix of the both.

 

Afterwards, the duplicative and triplicative layers can be repeated at the trial stage and again at the appeal stage.

 

When I questioned the reasons for such a complicated system, the answers seemed to infer (but never aver) that it was to allow investigation/prosecution to succeed despite bribery and/or intimidation activity.

[Davyjonesrugrat]

I dont think that there will be much in the way of legal proceedings just now and there will be a stay to allow more investigation of the incident. It might must be the opening remarks and then a further extension to allow more time

 

Just my thoughts....

 

regards

:):):)

[Uniall]

I dont think that there will be much in the way of legal proceedings just now and there will be a stay to allow more investigation of the incident. It might must be the opening remarks and then a further extension to allow more time

 

Just my thoughts....

 

regards

:):):)

 

Davy

The thing that makes it difficult for those of us familiar with the Anglo/American criminal justice system is that the Italian system is an amalgamation of legal systems that directly involve police, prosecutors and judges in the investigation stage.

John

[sparks247]

If anyone is interested, the chart to reference when examining Costa Concordia's final track is It74 (B), Porti Dell'Argentario E Dell'Isola Del Giglio - Porto Del Giglio

 

VP

 

The actual AIS track of CC can be viewed at the QPS website:

 

http://www.qps.nl/display/qastor/2012/01/17/20120117_stranding

 

The navigators left no room for error. There was also a 20-23 mp/h ENE breeze at the time of the incident, which pushed the vessel on the rocks just North of the port.

 

Also compare the track followed on August 14, 2011, which was equally unsafe. Apparently Costa's shorebased operation dept does not review vessels tracks as this would have raised red flags and resulted in disciplinary action.

 

Other cruise lines do review vessels tracks downloaded from electronic chart systems.

[Aplmac]

The actual AIS track of CC can be viewed at the QPS website:

 

http://www.qps.nl/display/qastor/2012/01/17/20120117_stranding

 

The navigators left no room for error.

There was also a 20-23 mp/h ENE breeze at the time of the incident,

which pushed the vessel on the rocks just North of the port.

Ah yes, a breeze like that would def. have some impact

 

 

Does anyone know what the tidal state was, when it happened?

Hi tide? Lo Tide? Mid Tide?

.

[reallyitsmema]

I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat.

 

http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster

[IRL_Joanie]

I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat.

 

http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster

 

The photos we have from a video taken and sent to the Minnesota TV station to pass on to the family, show Mr and Mrs Heil 2 people back from the doors to Lifeboat # 6. This was one of the 3 life boats that was unable to launch:( Our guess is that they tried to make it to the other side to try and board another life boat. Obviously, they did not make it:(

 

Joanie

[MDSue]

I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat.

 

http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster

 

That's extremely sad to think that they were waiting their turn to get off and just didn't make it off in time. When I watched the special on the Discovery Channel, they interviewed a couple who went from lifeboat to lifeboat and they were all full. Then some went to the other side of the ship to try the other side, but the angle was so steep, it might have been impossible for some. One of the couples who swam to shore said the ship was tipping to the point that they would be underwater if they didn't jump when they did. The Heils were an elderly couple and I can imagine that swimming in the freezing cold water wasn't an option for them It seems likely that they were on the side of the ship that slipped underwater as people were still waiting to board a lifeboat. It just makes me angry that the captain didn't order abandon ship sooner. It seems like even a few minutes sooner could have been a matter of life and death for the people who perished.

[MDSue]

The photos we have from a video taken and sent to the Minnesota TV station to pass on to the family, show Mr and Mrs Heil 2 people back from the doors to Lifeboat # 6. This was one of the 3 life boats that was unable to launch:( Our guess is that they tried to make it to the other side to try and board another life boat. Obviously, they did not make it:(

 

Joanie

 

excellent observation

[Gingee]

How sad is that this couple did try to get off the boat.

[Ozcruiser1]

I have not seen this article linked before. I did not realize that the Heil's were seen alive on deck. I wonder what happened that prevented them from getting on a lifeboat.

 

http://www.kare11.com/news/article/963242/14/Photos-found-of-White-Bear-Lake-couple-lost-in-cruise-disaster

 

I was looking at some other photos in a new article in the UK daily mail

and by chance located the Heils in one of the photo in the article.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086831/Costa-Concordia-cruise-ship-pictures-Trapped-survivor-Manrico-Giampedroni-airlifted-safety.htm

(That link to the UK Daily is not working now)

 

It too has been passed onto the TV news station to pass onto the family.

 

Mr Heil can be seen wearing his brown cap centre pic beyond the grey haired gentleman and Mrs Heil is seen in front of her husband, wearing glasses looking upwards .

For them to be so close to the front of the passengers preparing to board the lifeboat and then for them and others not to be able to board that lifeboat is just so tragic.

 

It has been suggested by others that the number 6 seen in red would indicate that this lifeboat was on the port side (high side of the listing ship) and was thus unable to be lowered due to the list.

 

I have posted the link to the photo rather than post the actual photo here out of respect to their family.

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/15/article-2086831-0F7834AE00000578-619_964x623.jpg

 

The issue of life boats being unable to be lowered on a listing ship is one of the manny issues that MUST be addressed by the cruise industry.

I have no engineering or design knowledge BUT there must be a solution to this issue. It is pointless having enough life boats for all passengers if some of them are unable to be used.

[greg-nc]

New week, a new story from the captain's blonde. Sounds like she has told so many stories that she can't keep them straight anymore.

 

Costa Concordia blonde tells about her relationship with captain

 

Earlier she has a room key to her own room and her stuff being in the captain's cabin was "all lies". Now it is her stuff was in the captain's cabin while waiting for a room to open up. Earlier she never had a romantic relationship with the captain, now she is sharing long passionate kisses with him in his cabin.

 

What will her story be next week?

 

Stay tuned to "As the Captain's Blonde turns"... the never ending story.

[Keel Haul]

My understanding is that unlike the legal system in the USA, which is based on Englsh Common Law, the Italian system is based on the much older Roman Law. However, it is not that simple. Below are three links that I have been reading that others may find informative.

 

Wikipedia has a diagram that may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Italy

 

The legal history of Italy: http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/law508/ItalianLegalHistory.htm

 

And from Andrea Scella, University of Udine Faculty of Law, Italy:

The Three Most Important Features of Italy’s Legal System that Others Should

Understand: http://www.ialsnet.org/meetings/enriching/scella.pdf

 

A lot more complex, but then our system probably looks pretty complex to others, or even to people in our own country who haven't had much legal experience.

 

Morgan Mars

To be accurate you would also have to factor in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union Edited February 26, 2012 by Keel Haul

[Keel Haul]

I dont think that there will be much in the way of legal proceedings just now and there will be a stay to allow more investigation of the incident. It might must be the opening remarks and then a further extension to allow more time

 

Just my thoughts....

 

regards

:):):)

The Judge will set a time line to trial, he will also instruct on the disclosure of evidence. IMO at best only part of the black box(s) info has been leaked, if I am correct :eek: and they contain a "smoking gun" re Schettino it is possible there will not be a trial.

My interest is if fresh charges are brought under the Italian version of the UK Corporate Manslaughter law and if this happens will the parent company have a strong enough fire wall.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Keel Haul

[Aplmac]

Then some went to the other side of the ship to try the other side,

but the angle was so steep, it might have been impossiblefor some.

 

One of the couples who swam to shore

said the ship was tipping to the point that they would be underwater if they didn't jump when they did.

All of which makes me think that, when my ship is going down

I'll be keeping a keen eye on not just rate of sinking -but on the angle of her list and to which side!

 

 

 

When floors become walls-at-45-degrees, it gets a tad difficult to walk on them. ;)

 

I will be on the upper side of the hull long before that, regardless of where my assigned muster station is

and no officious crew member is going to order me to my death as a drowned rat on the wrong side of the ship, I'm sorry. :)

If I decide to cruise again.

.

[janneke]

 

Does anyone know what the tidal state was, when it happened?

Hi tide? Lo Tide? Mid Tide?

.

 

In the med sea there is practically no tide, at best they have 1 (one) meter

[Tranquil Waters]

.....and if this happens will the parent company have a strong enough fire wall.

 

I certainly hope not! The parent company certainly knew about close to land "salutes" and apparently it was common knowledge that captains "entertain" females on board when their wives are safely home. And seeing as how the captain slowing down to enjoy his time with said female and then speeding up for salute was one of the things found on investigation. Plus the distraction of female on bridge at time of disaster. All can and should come back on Costa for these policies.

 

I can only relate it to my work. What about a hospital that allowed surgeons to have female companions in the OR and then the distraction of the female led -in part - to a tragedy? Would the hospital be responsible for the policy as well as the surgeon? I am thinking that would be a resounding yes... The same should apply to Costa/CCL.

[MorganMars]

Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

 

To be accurate you would also have to factor in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union

[Keel Haul]

I certainly hope not! The parent company certainly knew about close to land "salutes" and apparently it was common knowledge that captains "entertain" females on board when their wives are safely home. And seeing as how the captain slowing down to enjoy his time with said female and then speeding up for salute was one of the things found on investigation. Plus the distraction of female on bridge at time of disaster. All can and should come back on Costa for these policies.

 

I can only relate it to my work. What about a hospital that allowed surgeons to have female companions in the OR and then the distraction of the female led -in part - to a tragedy? Would the hospital be responsible for the policy as well as the surgeon? I am thinking that would be a resounding yes... The same should apply to Costa/CCL.

Tranq I think I was a bit vague, the fire wall is between Costa and Carnival.

[snausman]

The photos we have from a video taken and sent to the Minnesota TV station to pass on to the family, show Mr and Mrs Heil 2 people back from the doors to Lifeboat # 6. This was one of the 3 life boats that was unable to launch:( Our guess is that they tried to make it to the other side to try and board another life boat. Obviously, they did not make it:(

 

Joanie

 

Joanie, this is just so sad. THank you for pointing it out.

 

Laura

[Tranquil Waters]

Tranq I think I was a bit vague, the fire wall is between Costa and Carnival.

 

Ahhh. I did misunderstand. I am not sure how I feel about that firewall. If CCL was aware of salutes and captains having female guests, then I guess I still hope the firewall doesn't hold. If they had no knowledge (hard to believe) then i guess I would feel it was OK for the buck to stop with Costa.

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

How sad is that this couple did try to get off the boat.

 

SO sad. My heart goes out to their family members.

[IRL_Joanie]

I certainly hope not! The parent company certainly knew about close to land "salutes" and apparently it was common knowledge that captains "entertain" females on board when their wives are safely home. And seeing as how the captain slowing down to enjoy his time with said female and then speeding up for salute was one of the things found on investigation. Plus the distraction of female on bridge at time of disaster. All can and should come back on Costa for these policies.

 

I can only relate it to my work. What about a hospital that allowed surgeons to have female companions in the OR and then the distraction of the female led -in part - to a tragedy? Would the hospital be responsible for the policy as well as the surgeon? I am thinking that would be a resounding yes... The same should apply to Costa/CCL.

 

As per NUMEROUS Media reporting that Schettino slowed down and sped up, that is FALSE INFORMATION!!!

 

AIS recordings from various sources have PROVEN those False Media Claims/Reports to be false!!

 

Please watch this in its entirety and note both the speeds and the time line: http://news.qps.nl.s3.amazonaws.com/Grounding+Costa+Concordia.wmv

 

Here is a more detailed and more recent one to watch: http://news.qps.nl.s3.amazonaws.com/Grouding+Costa+Concordia+January+13+2012+AIS+Reconstruction+by+QPS.wmv

 

You can see more here on their web site: http://www.qps.nl/display/qastor/2012/01/17/20120117_stranding

 

If you do a Google Search under AIS Costa Concordia Timeline you will find even more that disprove the media reports.

 

Joanie