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Concordia News: Please Post Here

kingcruiser1

By kingcruiser1,
in Costa Cruises

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sidari

sidari

Posted
Posted

"Not so sure Foschi would want the man who cost him his job following him to the other end of the world. Foschi does have Asian experience as VP of Otis Elevator. Maybe he'll be able to provide some insight to the families of the dead who were trapped in the Costa Concordia elevators"

 

Sad though it still is that people died you have to ask why those people were using Lifts/elevators in an emergancy situation? after all you would not use them in a tower block that was on fire!

 

 

"Gianni Scerni, the chairman of Registro Italiano Navale (RINA), the classification society that issued Costa Concordia a certificate of seaworthiness and safety management in November 2011, resigned on 18 January 2012."

 

You have to wonder why ....

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stella_mare

stella_mare

Posted
Posted
"Not so sure Foschi would want the man who cost him his job following him to the other end of the world. Foschi does have Asian experience as VP of Otis Elevator. Maybe he'll be able to provide some insight to the families of the dead who were trapped in the Costa Concordia elevators"

 

Sad though it still is that people died you have to ask why those people were using Lifts/elevators in an emergancy situation? after all you would not use them in a tower block that was on fire!

 

It makes you wonder when (and why) the passengers boarded the elevator. They were misled about the true emergency taking place; told not to worry, it was only a blackout. But how did the elevators have power in a blackout situation?

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Tonka's Skipper

Tonka's Skipper

Posted
Posted (edited)
Yes, the harbour/port authority did the inspection (along with RINA) in November to verify the documentation submitted by Costa Crociere related to its safeety/security measures. The second pass in December was a further check by RINA - again, voluntary and optional, related to additional certifications. From Wiki: "Gianni Scerni, the chairman of Registro Italiano Navale (RINA), the classification society that issued Costa Concordia a certificate of seaworthiness and safety management in November 2011, resigned on 18 January 2012."

 

 

OK....thanks! I looked it up and it is one of the smaller class groups., thanks for the info!

Edited by Tonka's Skipper
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cruiserfanfromct

cruiserfanfromct

Posted
Posted
Italy: Court Experts Broaden Blame in Cruise Ship Wreck Beyond Captain

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: September 13, 2012

 

Court-appointed experts said the captain was primarily to blame for the deadly cruise ship accident that killed 32 people in January, but they also faulted the crew and the shipowner for blunders, delays and security breaches that contributed to the disaster. The ship, the Costa Concordia, ran aground and capsized off the Tuscan island of Giglio after Capt. Francesco Schettino took it off course in a stunt. He is accused of causing the shipwreck, manslaughter and abandoning the ship before all passengers were evacuated. [/color][/b]Eight other people are also under investigation. The experts said crew members bungled directions, did not understand orders and were not trained or certified in security and emergency drills. They said the ship’s owner, Costa Crociere, delayed alerting coastal authorities about the emergency, an assertion the company denied.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/world/europe/italy-court-experts-broaden-blame-in-cruise-ship-wreck-beyond-captain.html

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cruiserfanfromct

cruiserfanfromct

Posted
Posted

 

Yes -- Costa denies the findings of the court experts in respect to the company but notice that Roberto Ferrarini, head of crisis management got the axe -- Ferrarini is the one the experts say should have ordered Schettino to sound the emergency signal much earlier. There are published recorded conversations by the Italian media between Ferrarini and the Coast Guard that are pretty lame and make RF sound like he is totally clueless or hiding something! I don't think Costa and Carnival Corp are going to be totally off the hook on this one.

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SomeBeach

SomeBeach

Posted
Posted

CT, I don't see how Costa can claim they weren't getting accurate facts. I'll grant RF a bit of space that in the first couple of minutes Schettino may not have been clear or accurate in his report but after that I believe RF had more knowledge of just how serious this was.

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cruiserfanfromct

cruiserfanfromct

Posted
Posted
CT, I don't see how Costa can claim they weren't getting accurate facts. I'll grant RF a bit of space that in the first couple of minutes Schettino may not have been clear or accurate in his report but after that I believe RF had more knowledge of just how serious this was.

Agreed, that is why I believe RF is being investigated by the authorities and his duties reassigned by Costa. His cluelessness in the phone conversation with the Coast Guard could be a concerted cover up, IMHO.

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SomeBeach

SomeBeach

Posted
Posted

From Giglio News

Shipwreck Costa Concordia, Costa Cruises expertise experts confirms responsibility. Legambiente: "That's why we gave the black flag Costa Cruises. The sinking of Giglio must serve to strengthen controls over the quality and training of the crews of large ships "

 

"On the Costa Concordia occurred a series of incredible errors only some of which are attributable to the conduct of Captain Schettino. For the rest, we believe that they are increasingly emerging fault or responsibility of the shipping company that has had at least a superficial attitude in the selection of the crew and has demonstrated a strong underestimation of the emergency management during the most critical phase. " Sebastiano Venneri, head sea Legambiente comments on the outcome of the report of the experts appointed by the prosecutor in Grosseto on the sinking of the Costa Concordia. text confirmation, in fact, the major responsibility of the shipping company in the wreck of the Costa Concordia. Not only Schettino, therefore, that with his wicked conduct has certainly played an important role, but also Costa Cruises have contributed significantly to the disaster that has worn off the coast of the island of Giglio. In the pages of the report refers to the lack of preparation and professionalism of the officers on board, the superficiality in crew training, the confusion in the assignment of tasks and duties, ignorance and lack of proper certification by many members of 'crew, the incredible phases of emergency management that betrays a lack of proper selection of personnel on board the ship. "It 's for this reason - continues Venneri - that this summer we have assigned to the black flag of Costa Cruises new pirates of the sea. Suffice it to say that, for example, as shown in the report, the orders from the captain to the steersman Indonesian in the run-up to Lily, were not immediately understood, although pronounced in English on a ship that also would have required the Italian as the language of job."

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cruiserfanfromct

cruiserfanfromct

Posted
Posted
From Giglio News

 

Shipwreck Costa Concordia, Costa Cruises expertise experts confirms responsibility. Legambiente: "That's why we gave the black flag Costa Cruises. The sinking of Giglio must serve to strengthen controls over the quality and training of the crews of large ships "

 

"On the Costa Concordia occurred a series of incredible errors only some of which are attributable to the conduct of Captain Schettino. For the rest, we believe that they are increasingly emerging fault or responsibility of the shipping company that has had at least a superficial attitude in the selection of the crew and has demonstrated a strong underestimation of the emergency management during the most critical phase. " Sebastiano Venneri, head sea Legambiente comments on the outcome of the report of the experts appointed by the prosecutor in Grosseto on the sinking of the Costa Concordia. text confirmation, in fact, the major responsibility of the shipping company in the wreck of the Costa Concordia. Not only Schettino, therefore, that with his wicked conduct has certainly played an important role, but also Costa Cruises have contributed significantly to the disaster that has worn off the coast of the island of Giglio. In the pages of the report refers to the lack of preparation and professionalism of the officers on board, the superficiality in crew training, the confusion in the assignment of tasks and duties, ignorance and lack of proper certification by many members of 'crew, the incredible phases of emergency management that betrays a lack of proper selection of personnel on board the ship. "It 's for this reason - continues Venneri - that this summer we have assigned to the black flag of Costa Cruises new pirates of the sea. Suffice it to say that, for example, as shown in the report, the orders from the captain to the steersman Indonesian in the run-up to Lily, were not immediately understood, although pronounced in English on a ship that also would have required the Italian as the language of job."

 

Interesting. Also, there is a huge lawsuit against Carnival by Giglio Island tourist-related businesses that claim the disaster deterred visitors, polluted environmentally sensitive local waters and depressed property values.

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stella_mare

stella_mare

Posted
Posted
...

"Gianni Scerni, the chairman of Registro Italiano Navale (RINA), the classification society that issued Costa Concordia a certificate of seaworthiness and safety management in November 2011, resigned on 18 January 2012."

 

You have to wonder why ....

 

Panaroma interviewed Scerni a few days ago:

 

"Yes, but you are also the only one who submitted his resignation in this whole affair that still has many, if not many, many, dark sides. Why did you step down?

 

I agreed to resign because I did not feel right that facing the loss of human lives, economic interests could prevail. I tried to give priority to the protection of human life against the interests of "of the shop" of a classified ship and its owner who is a significant customer of the Italian Naval Register [RINA]."

 

 

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CostaSmurfette

CostaSmurfette

Posted
Posted

 

The aspect that needs close investigation is that the bridge officers and crew were hobbled by the language barrier...or at least the often very strong accents.

 

Having heard Schettino in person, his accent is not always easy to understand...while he and the others speak reasonable English, the accents can often get in the way and change what words sound like or mean...albeit inadvertantly.

 

You have an Indonesian helmsman taking orders from Italian officers...those Italian officers speak English but with regional accents, they are speaking to someone from Indonesia who himself has an accent and who uses English as a second language to his own "mother tongue".

 

So it would be quite feasible that Schettino asked for a certain course to be taken and the helmsman misunderstood what was said to him...thus the ship wandered 0.5 miles off the requested course.

 

Half a mile is not a huge length physically but in this case it meant a huge difference in what was safe and what was not safe.

 

It would be interesting to see what the written course notes were against what was actually said...AND heard...by the helmsman and how the helmsman interpreted those requests in his steering.

 

I know that an order given should be repeated by the person receiving it...to avoid mistakes, if nothing else...but if you have two very thick foreign accents, which afterall Indonesian and Italian are potentially very difficult to disipher and in the heat of the moment of giving that instruction, one or both parties could potentially misread or misunderstand what was said.

 

Again, this was a common problem in airline accidents where the command of English was frequently poor and the understanding of orders/requests was often misinterpreted...such as in the Avianca crash some years ago near New York, the plane was out of fuel but due to language and training differences the crew stated they had an "urgent" need to land, when in New York's control tower assumed they were OK for a while longer cos they did not state that they had an "emergency"....both urgent and emergency mean the same thing but can be misconstrued when under stress or when two very different accents and/or training is in place.

 

I think the level of training and most importantly the level of English spoken and understood will inevitably come under scrutiny and should bring about important changes in how officers are chosen, recruited and trained...and also how junior crew such as helmsmen are chosen, recruited and trained.

 

I have said all along that it is not so much the why's and wherefore's of this accident that are important, but the lessons learnt and the procedural changes made that will inevitably make cruising safer in the future.

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Vampire Parrot

Vampire Parrot

Posted
Posted (edited)

The link sidari posted contains the text

 

"According to the experts, it was a communication error between the master and helmsman that caused the impact, which is why Rusli is now under investigation for the sinking of Concordia."

 

Back in May I was on holiday, I was Captain of a 50 foot boat in fairly narrow waters, easy, eh? Alas... I was too relaxed, I screwed giving orders one morning, I said starboard instead of point, easy to do :( It was *MY* sole responsibility to hear and understand the helmsmans reply. He correctly said "helm to starboard". I realised I'd got it wrong, I stated "Correction, helm to port. Helm to port.", watch for the correction and listen for the helmsman to say "Helm to port".

 

Some years ago, there was a communications breakdown (again, my responsibility as the Master) and because we were close to shore, I said "I have the helm, I have the helm" and took the wheel.

 

The point is that in my opinion, the person giving the commands to ensure safe navigation has the reponsibility to ensure her/his commands are being acted upon correctly. In both of the above (true) examples, it was my responsibility to ensure safe navigation. In the first case, I'd got it wrong. In the second case, the helmsman had got it wrong. But in both cases, it was *my sole responsibility* to ensure the vessel's heading was correct.

 

VP

Edited by Vampire Parrot
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Uniall

Uniall

Posted
Posted
The link sidari posted contains the text

 

"According to the experts, it was a communication error between the master and helmsman that caused the impact, which is why Rusli is now under investigation for the sinking of Concordia."

 

Back in May I was on holiday, I was Captain of a 50 foot boat in fairly narrow waters, easy, eh? Alas... I was too relaxed, I screwed giving orders one morning, I said starboard instead of point, easy to do :( It was *MY* sole responsibility to hear and understand the helmsmans reply. He correctly said "helm to starboard". I realised I'd got it wrong, I stated "Correction, helm to port. Helm to port.", watch for the correction and listen for the helmsman to say "Helm to port".

 

Some years ago, there was a communications breakdown (again, my responsibility as the Master) and because we were close to shore, I said "I have the helm, I have the helm" and took the wheel.

 

The point is that in my opinion, the person giving the commands to ensure safe navigation has the reponsibility to ensure her/his commands are being acted upon correctly. In both of the above (true) examples, it was my responsibility to ensure safe navigation. In the first case, I'd got it wrong. In the second case, the helmsman had got it wrong. But in both cases, it was *my sole responsibility* to ensure the vessel's heading was correct.

 

VP

 

VP

 

Everything you say is accurate and true ....

 

UNLESS You

1. you are Italian and

2. you are entertaining an off duty female entertainer and

3. you are named Schittino

 

Ah yes, Captain Coward, the gift that keeps on giving. :eek:

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cruiserfanfromct

cruiserfanfromct

Posted
Posted
The aspect that needs close investigation is that the bridge officers and crew were hobbled by the language barrier...or at least the often very strong accents.

 

Having heard Schettino in person, his accent is not always easy to understand...while he and the others speak reasonable English, the accents can often get in the way and change what words sound like or mean...albeit inadvertantly.

 

You have an Indonesian helmsman taking orders from Italian officers...those Italian officers speak English but with regional accents, they are speaking to someone from Indonesia who himself has an accent and who uses English as a second language to his own "mother tongue".

 

So it would be quite feasible that Schettino asked for a certain course to be taken and the helmsman misunderstood what was said to him...thus the ship wandered 0.5 miles off the requested course.

 

Half a mile is not a huge length physically but in this case it meant a huge difference in what was safe and what was not safe.

 

It would be interesting to see what the written course notes were against what was actually said...AND heard...by the helmsman and how the helmsman interpreted those requests in his steering.

 

I know that an order given should be repeated by the person receiving it...to avoid mistakes, if nothing else...but if you have two very thick foreign accents, which afterall Indonesian and Italian are potentially very difficult to disipher and in the heat of the moment of giving that instruction, one or both parties could potentially misread or misunderstand what was said.

 

Again, this was a common problem in airline accidents where the command of English was frequently poor and the understanding of orders/requests was often misinterpreted...such as in the Avianca crash some years ago near New York, the plane was out of fuel but due to language and training differences the crew stated they had an "urgent" need to land, when in New York's control tower assumed they were OK for a while longer cos they did not state that they had an "emergency"....both urgent and emergency mean the same thing but can be misconstrued when under stress or when two very different accents and/or training is in place.

 

I think the level of training and most importantly the level of English spoken and understood will inevitably come under scrutiny and should bring about important changes in how officers are chosen, recruited and trained...and also how junior crew such as helmsmen are chosen, recruited and trained.

 

I have said all along that it is not so much the why's and wherefore's of this accident that are important, but the lessons learnt and the procedural changes made that will inevitably make cruising safer in the future.

The lengths you go to exonerate Schettino boggles the mind. The fact that lessons were learned from this fiasco does not make Schettino the hero you paint him to be. 32 human lives is a mighty high price to pay to learn that proper procedures should have been followed.

 

Thick accents aside, aren't wheel orders supposed to be repeated by the helmsman to ensure that they are carried out correctly? If the orders were repeated wouldn't Schettino have picked up on the error? If they weren't repeated shouldn't Schettino have asked for the orders to be repeated until he was satisfied he understood them? Or was Casanova so preoccupied by other matters that rendered him totally oblivious to everything around him?

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stella_mare

stella_mare

Posted
Posted

CostaSmurfette,

 

It is correct there was a language barrier. The working language on the ship was Italian, but all officers are required to know English. The helmsman seems to have had trouble with both. Yet Schettino had ALREADY planned, ordered and taken this ship way off course. The helmsman misunderstood and incorrectly applied Schettino's flurry of orders just as they were approaching the rock and after. Schettino ordered the ship in even closer than the 05m. That was his plan.

 

The report also questions why a less-than-the-best equipped team of officers would be standing watch during this more critical phase of navigation (i.e., close to the coast, at night). In this matter as well, the panel is very critical of Schettino's utter lack of attention to fundamental standards and professionalism.

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