HAL's Next Ship??

[cavecreekguy]

frankly, and i hate to say this because hal has been my line of choice for over sixteen years, but unless hal defines its product it will be defunct in less than ten years. its demographic is old, like me, and i don't see that changing, regardless of ads, promos, et al. just examine the hal folks on this site, what is their age, upon what is their loyalty based? memories, and not much more. sad.

 

Well I don't know about that. I am mid 40's and just discovered HAL a couple of years ago. I had previously sailed Princess, Crystal, and RCCL. I have decided that HAL is my favorite, and have another cruise booked with them.

 

Whether I am an anomaly or not, I don't know. But some of us "younger" people are discovering and appreciating HAL's charms.

 

I do think they really should "own" the "premium" line category, and with their unique itineraries, really stress they are the line for "serious" travelers. For people like myself, who fell in love cruising on cheap 7 day Caribbean itineraries, but who now, in "middle age," are in a position to afford a more upscale experience, and are ready for a more interesting itinerary.

[blossom]

I would not imagine that any cruise line right now would be planning new ship construction

 

until after the Concordia review board has made it's safety report and issued it's

 

recommondations. Remember our safety is the most important concern here.

[GPoll189]

First for the posters that state the Holland America will not be around in 10 years if it doesn't find its identity, you are totally incorrect. Holland America Line has been around for over 130 years now. She is the second longest running line that is still sailing today. If Carnival Corp didn't take her over in 1989 she would have been no longer. It is because of Carnival she is where she is now. However, she is still an individually run subsidiary of Carnival Corp. Carnival Corp gives HAL a revenue goal that it has to reach each year and if that isn't met then there will be changes made. All the new builds are started by Carnival Corp. About 5 years ago Carnival stated that there wouldn't be any new builds for the future except for the ships on order already. These ships are now almost all complete so Carnival Corp had to decide what to do next. Holland America will remain a cruise line for the future but it might not be what we remember of the old Holland America.

 

The posters that you see posting here is only a very small portion of the cruising public. There are many other people out there that will cruise any line if the price is right. Holland America is still the driving force in the Alaska market and many people know that. They own all of the Westmark hotels. The Greyhound busses and run under Holland America control in Alaska. The tour there are done by mostly HAL. This is other ways that HAL makes money. They don't only do it in cruising. People are mentioning that HAL is getting in bed with Seabourne. People don't remember HAL was in this market many years ago before Carnival took them over. They ran the Windstar cruises fleet of 3 ship very well.

 

The cut backs you see on the ships is because of what the industry has become. It isn't what HAL is doing to save money, it is what the industry is doing to remain profitable.

 

I was trying to find the press release that Stien Kruse made after the naming of Nieuw Amsterdam where he stated the next class of ships will be bigger than her. Holland America will be around for many more years but the future is probable going to be bigger than smaller. I feel that HAL will hold onto some of its smaller ships to sail the exotic voyage but the more mainstream cruising will be done with Vista, Signature and bigger class ships.

[world~citizen]

...Holland America will remain a cruise line for the future but it might not be what we remember of the old Holland America...

 

It already isn't - and if it does live on but not as the old Holland America, can we say it really survived?

 

I remember when three magazines were said to have an unassailable stranglehold on publishing - LIFE, LOOK and the Saturday Evening Post.

 

I agree HAL wouldn't be where she is now but for Carnival. The question is where is that? Where is it going?

 

The old magic exists on other more expensive lines. Those of us who want it will pay for it. To be successful HAL will have to attract and hold on to new pax. The old formula won't fill the cabins of the newbuilds. What will the new formula be? I am convinced Carnival/HAL has no clue. They backed in to a global financial crisis with a fleet of newbuilds leaving them tapping in the dark. There are a lot of pax becoming less and less inclined to book cruises with them hoping they figured it out.

[fann1sh]

<snip>To be successful HAL will have to attract and hold on to new pax. The old formula won't fill the cabins of the newbuilds. What will the new formula be? I am convinced Carnival/HAL has no clue. They backed in to a global financial crisis with a fleet of newbuilds leaving them tapping in the dark. There are a lot of pax becoming less and less inclined to book cruises with them hoping they figured it out.

 

As is often the case, your post hit dead centre on something I've been musing about today.

 

Who does HAL see filling their ships in 5 years?

 

We don't know, we can only speculate.

 

However, I think "I dunno" is the prevailing very fuzzy sentiment in Seattle. I'm no business major - I don't know marketing from the inside - but the signals seemed mixed.

 

I typed up a new thread about this 2 hours ago, then deleted it instead of hitting "submit".

[LAFFNVEGAS]

As is often the case, your post hit dead centre on something I've been musing about today.

 

Who does HAL see filling their ships in 5 years?

 

We don't know, we can only speculate.

 

However, I think "I dunno" is the prevailing very fuzzy sentiment in Seattle. I'm no business major - I don't know marketing from the inside - but the signals seemed mixed.

 

I typed up a new thread about this 2 hours ago, then deleted it instead of hitting "submit".

HAL needs to go where they are going to make the most profit and while in the past it was those that were close to retirement or retired. Unfortunately that is the the demographics with the least over all disposable income with current economic times or if they do have it are more fearing of losing it. Also the largest market with disposable income is also not coming from North America. Maybe a bit more from Canada than the US. The Asia countries and Australia seem to have the most disposable income which is no wonder that so many ships started to head down under. Most of Europe is not much farther behind in the economy tumble as the US. I think for the near future many cruise lines will be finding new areas of the world they will be trying to attract clients.

North America still has the largest number of people that will choose cruising as the vacation/holiday but to survive who they will sell to the demographics have to change. I personally think they will skip a generation. There is a large number of people in their 40's that have the income and many did not have children. I strongly feel they will go the route of Celebrity attacting those that want like Celebrity states "Modern Luxury" HAL will need to come up with a whole new tag line. Granted there will still be many that will stay with HAL but bigger ships and more modern features is most likely what HAL will go to for attracting Younger passengers. Basically this is the only way they can survive.

I also think they will need to change the way they sell.

With the exception of HAL the days are gone where you can get a great last minute deal on a cruise. Unfortunately HAL has taught their clients to wait to the end and by offering Flash Sales. This not only hurts them in knowing how the ships will sell but brings on a different demographic than what HAL wants. Cruise Lines such as NCL, Celebrity and Carnival all have special pricing that is lower and offer great ship board credit offers to those that book a year or more out. Those lower priceed cabins sell out and they actually see a large percentage of the ship booked 9 months from the sailing. Then the cruise lines gradually increase the rate as the sailing gets closer. Which also encourages people to book early and not cancel because they already have the best price. Unfortunately HAL comes out of the gate with prices that are extremely high forcing the person with the disposable income to look else where and book a Suite on Celebrity or NCL. Then HAL is stuck with many of their cabins that they give away at the end which does not bring on the demographics they need to spend money on board.

What is interesting is that HAL followed Princess with the Flash pricing but it has been almost a year now since Princess got away from doing that type of marketing. Loyal Princess passengers are learning to booked early like NCL passengers do to get the best offer. HAL needs to change the way they sell to also survive. How many here are complaining that prices are so much higher. Sadly there is no reward to book early with HAL and they are losing a good share of the cruising market by now changing.

[fann1sh]

Thanks for that, Lisa. I'm not expecting you to reply to my comments below, but these are the things I've been thinking about.

 

***

 

I know HAL isn't making a fortune off fares. What about on board spending? Who is the perfect passenger in that respect?

 

If the HAL past pax profile isn't the right one, what is? HAL brochures still show middle-aged-but-youthful people, and very few images of children (though I did spot one in Caribbean 2013). The brochures should show pictures of the people HAL wants to sail with them. Is that families? Then the pictures should show families.

 

Are Carnival Corp brands encouraged to NOT try to poach pax of other Carnival brands? Under the RCI umbrella, Celebrity pax seem the more compatible targets. Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings just has the one brand. On board spending on NCL is, I've been told, relatively high. Does this make a NCL pax a preferred target, over Celebrity past pax?

 

Or, with each Carnival Corp company run independently, is targeting other CC brands fair game? Princess, Cunard and HAL seem to fill sort of similar niches. So, are Princess and Cunard pax more likely to be the ones HAL would like to poach?

 

In this age of "right sizing", are there too many brands? Is there a scramble on to make one "traditional" CC brand more profitable than a similar one? Will we soon lose brands, with a quiet but ferocious war underway to see who floats, and who sinks?

 

***

 

My personal opinion: chasing after NCL and trying to play catch-up in the contemporary market would be dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

It's like the auto companies way back in the 1960's that tried to clone the Mustang. Sure, there were other muscle cars, but Mustang? Still stands alone.

 

HAL needs to forget about Mustangs, and re-invent -say- the traditional pick up truck.

[3rdGenCunarder]

I just thought of another killer for small ships. Balconies. People want them, and you just can't sqeeze that many onto the superstructure of a small ship.

 

Look at the vistas. Not terribly pretty (kind of like an apartment building sitting on a ship hull), but plenty of affordable balconies. The need to provide balconies has changed the profile of ships--not just HAL's, everybody's. They don't LOOK like ships any more, but they provide what the market wants.

[hypercafe]

What ever marketing slogan they chose the have to live up to it. They talk about signature of excellence but when I got on the ship I found a ship with AC problems, plumbing problems, poor service in the MDR with the waiter telling it is due to cutbacks, woren and broken furniture, a rushed and really nothing special past pass brunch. In fact all the things I found to be special are gone. All that I found left was a buss boy in a 1930 uniform cleaning the lobby. The Dutch dinner with hats is gone, the Capt. cocktail party gone, the hordervs in the lounge before dinner gone, the bar staff making the paper animals gone, I asked for this and was told they were told not to do it as the staff is reduced. About half of the fresh flowers around the ship gone. I read all the stuff from the cheer leaders about ship happens, only expect 85%, people cause all the problems ect. In the end when I got on the ship it did not match the slogan. Will I go again, no.

[rkacruiser]

What ever marketing slogan they chose the have to live up to it. They talk about signature of excellence but when I got on the ship I found a ship with AC problems, plumbing problems, poor service in the MDR with the waiter telling it is due to cutbacks, woren and broken furniture, a rushed and really nothing special past pass brunch. In fact all the things I found to be special are gone. All that I found left was a buss boy in a 1930 uniform cleaning the lobby. The Dutch dinner with hats is gone, the Capt. cocktail party gone, the hordervs in the lounge before dinner gone, the bar staff making the paper animals gone, I asked for this and was told they were told not to do it as the staff is reduced. About half of the fresh flowers around the ship gone. I read all the stuff from the cheer leaders about ship happens, only expect 85%, people cause all the problems ect. In the end when I got on the ship it did not match the slogan. Will I go again, no.

 

hypercafe,

 

I respect your opinion. I must say that I disagree with some of your views.

 

"Signature of Excellence": yes, I do think this needs to be better thought through by Mr. Kruse, Mr. Meadows, et al. My 2008 world cruise did not meet that standard. (It was a wonderful cruise experience. But, there were some things that were lacking, including "experienced world cruise crew members".) Yet, discussing this with others who have sailed on more recent Grand Voyages, those with much more experience than I have in this type of voyage, the expectations for the "Signature of Excellence" has changed from year to year, but is different from what I experienced in 2008.

 

My most recent Holland America cruises most certainly have met the "Signature of Excellence" that I would expect. My Auckland-Vancouver repositioning cruise on the Volendam this Spring fully met my expectations in every way: cuisine, service, ship cleanliness, activities, entertainment (with a female Australian Cruise Director that was far superior to the man on my world cruise), and interaction with officers and crew.

 

HAL continues to evolve just as the marketplace changes. My most major concern is that the HAL product in years past has been very, very consistent from ship to ship. Maybe because of the increase in the size of the fleet, that has changed and not for the good. If my perception is correct, and inconsistency in product delivery is an issue, maybe a change needs to be made in Seattle for whomever is responsible for this area in order to better provide us guests with a consistent cruise experience regardless of the vessel or itinerary on which we are traveling.

[mariner]

I believe Lisa's analysis of the marketplace hit the nail on the head.

 

The problem is HAL may want to position itself as a premium line, when in reality, it's now mass-market with smaller ships and can only discount so much.

 

As for Seabourn, HAL runs a very grave risk of moving its culture to a line where the passengers know what they want and will have no second thoughts of moving on if they don't get them.

 

The experience on Seabourn is like HAL was before Carnival took over.

 

HAL's easiest strategy would be to sell Seabourns older, smaller ships. Replace them with converted S class to 600 passengers.

 

However, they must first find buyers. Then they must decide how many ships do they really need in the fleet.

[Orangeguy]

As a "younger cruiser", my suggestion to HAL would not be to emulate what other cruise lines are doing but to instead find something that is distinctively HAL. Celebrity has glass blowing classes and open lawns, RCI has the SurfRider and megaships... HAL needs a feature that is innovative and unique. If HAL can continue to provide a high level of service while adding some uniquely HAL features, then it will be in an excellent place moving forward-- regardless of whether they decide to put this on a new ship or do a major refurb of an older ship.

[mariner]

I believe HAL would say what sets them apart are the Filipino and Indonesian crew members. However, they've reduced their service factor with auto tips.

[rkacruiser]

I believe HAL would say what sets them apart are the Filipino and Indonesian crew members. However, they've reduced their service factor with auto tips.

 

 

Truly, I am sorry to disagree with you. The service I received on my Spring Auckland-Vancouver repositioning cruise aboard the Volendam could not have been better. Only in the Pinnacle Grill--and I am sure some of my fellow shipmates will disagree--was service less than what I would have expected. Auto tips have made no difference.

[mariner]

I would disagree with you. The service on our recent HAL cruises, while good, was nowhere as good as it used to be. Hence, Seabourn, where the cruise survey is short and no one is begging for 9's.

[rkacruiser]

I would disagree with you. The service on our recent HAL cruises, while good, was nowhere as good as it used to be. Hence, Seabourn, where the cruise survey is short and no one is begging for 9's.

 

Thank you for your considered opinion.

 

I wonder: Is the difference due to different Hotel Managers? Is the difference due to the amount of money allocated/cruise day for a specific itinerary?

 

On the Volendam, I really got the feeling that HAL was trying as best they could to "impress" the Australian, New Zealand, and German passengers that were aboard. Good word-of-mouth publicity helps to sell cruises, I would think.

[rkacruiser]

mariner,

 

The only cruise that I have ever taken where the service staff were begging for top ratings was on Royal Caribbean--and that was in 1984. That is one of the reasons I have not been back on their vessels. It was a major "turn-off".

[mariner]

The non-American market tends not to tip and expects service. They also drink and spend at the bar (tipping indirectly).

 

Last few HAL cruise, they made a point of mentioning the survey. Hell, we just fill in 9's and drop it in the box. If we have problems, we let the supervisors know.

 

But on Seabourn, there's a better crew-passenger ratio, tipping not required, and no checks to sign.

[rkacruiser]

mariner,

 

I really would like to try Seabourn.

[mariner]

We found it cheaper than a HAL deluxe suite when factoring onboard expenses.

 

Smaller ships, fewer passengers and just an incredible experience. Go for it.

[peaches from georgia]

We found it cheaper than a HAL deluxe suite when factoring onboard expenses.

 

Smaller ships, fewer passengers and just an incredible experience. Go for it.

I'll ditto that. It was even better than we imagined, friendlier than any ship we had been on because of the size, and first class all the way- food, service and crew. You are right, Mariner. If HAL messes up Seabourn, their pax will leave in a heartbeat.

[mariner]

Peaches downplays the experience. It's just very hard to put into words. Once you do it, you're addicted.

[Himself]

I have absolutely no information but if I were to guess I would say the next HAL ships will be about 110,000 tons. Passenger size they will take her to about 2600. She will have similiar lay out to the Signature Class but a much larger hull. Probably two more decks with several new Specialty Restaurants. I would also guess there might only be two sister ships that they would announce with options for 2 more.

 

Lisa: I tend to agree with you. Perhaps putting a "Dolphin Deck" below the main deck and a lower Veranda Deck above the Upper Pomenade Deck. I also think it would be along the lines of a Signature Class. I could see Holland replacing the Statendam and maybe the Veendam with this new Class ship--Perhaps the Grand Class--with options to build a couple of more and with the way ships are going they would still be "Mid Class."

[sail7seas]

Lisa: I tend to agree with you. Perhaps putting a "Dolphin Deck" below the main deck and a lower Veranda Deck above the Upper Pomenade Deck. I also think it would be along the lines of a Signature Class. I could see Holland replacing the Statendam and maybe the Veendam with this new Class ship--Perhaps the Grand Class--with options to build a couple of more and with the way ships are going they would still be "Mid Class."

 

 

How's that for a name?

 

"GRAND STATENDAM"

I like it.

 

[LAFFNVEGAS]

How's that for a name?

 

"GRAND STATENDAM"

I like it.

 

That is actually a great idea for a name :)