ADA access to the Sanctuary

[Amuse Bouche]

I did a search, and found out there is a lift to the Sanctuary on the Crown. However, when I checked the deck plans for the Grand, there was no ADA lift on it.

 

Is there some sort of ADA compliant access to the Sanctuary on the Grand?

 

I don't know how they could get away with having an adults only area, where they offer a perk for a fee, and be able to exclude handicapped passengers...

Does anyone know?

[Pam in CA]

Only explanation I can think of is that on the Crown, the Sanctuary was part of the design when the ship was built. On the Grand, it was retrofitted. I'm not sure how ADA rules apply to an added feature. There may be access that's not on the deck plans.

[cherylandtk]

Princess lists which ships do not have access on their website page. I believe these are, as Pam stated, mostly the retrofitted ships.

[MilliesMom]

Princess lists which ships do not have access on their website page. I believe these are, as Pam stated, mostly the retrofitted ships.

 

Thank you for the link.

 

The following ships DO NOT have wheelchair access to the Sanctuary: Grand Princess, Caribbean Princess, Golden Princess, Star Princess, Pacific Princess and Diamond Princess.

[jamesboat]

I don't know how they could get away ... and be able to exclude handicapped passengers...

I'm not sure how ADA rules apply to an added feature.

 

They dont apply at all, its not an american ship!

[dmwnc1959]

They dont apply at all, its not an american ship!

 

It doesn't matter if they are foreign or US flagged. In June 2005, the Supreme Court of the United states mandated that in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) cruise ships that cruise in and out of US waters must be fully accessible to those with disabilities.

 

"According to Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy, who penned the majority opinion on Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line, the structural changes will have to be readily achievable. Thomas Goldstein, who argued the plaintiff’s case before the Supreme Court, believes that large-scale physical changes will probably not be required. And most everyone feels the regulations will probably only apply to newly built or newly designed cruise ships." More Here

 

More legalese HERE

 

 

.

Edited March 4, 2013 by dmwnc1959

[RDC1]

It doesn't matter if they are foreign or US flagged. In June 2005, the Supreme Court of the United states mandated that in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) cruise ships that cruise in and out of US waters must be fully accessible to those with disabilities.

 

"According to Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy, who penned the majority opinion on Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line, the structural changes will have to be readily achievable. Thomas Goldstein, who argued the plaintiff’s case before the Supreme Court, believes that large-scale physical changes will probably not be required. And most everyone feels the regulations will probably only apply to newly built or newly designed cruise ships." More Here

 

More legalese HERE

 

 

.

 

That fits with the retrofitted ships not having the capability while the new builds do.

[Amuse Bouche]

To everyone else that found the information on Princess' website, thank you very much.

 

And thank you, DMWNC1959, for the article you posted. I'm sure they are anticipating that these ships may be decommissioned before it's really an issue. Locked up in bureaucracy to buy time no doubt.

 

I think Princess should make a note of this on the booking page. For instance, in 2013, only one out of four ships (Sapphire) had access on a Hawaiian voyage. Pretty important info, I think, since the Sanctuary is a sanctuary :p

[montgomeryfamily]

Cheryl, I can answer your question. Having been on the Grand a number of times both before and after the major retrofit by Princess in which Skywalkers was removed and other major structural changes were made to the ship such as building One Five and adding the Piazza and International café area, among other changes, I can tell you that there is no wheelchair access to the Sanctuary and never has been wheelchair access to the Sanctuary, as we looked both before and after the retrofit. I was surprised with all of the major structural changes to the ship that a lift was not added, since it would be a minor change to do. There was a lift in Skywalkers which took wheelchairs from one the lower floor to the upper floor (which was all discarded when Skywalkers was taken off the ship and One Five was added). So the idea of using a lift to take wheelchairs from one floor to an upper level was already in use on the Grand before the retrofit in Skywalkers--just never applied to the Sanctuary.

 

On the Crown Princess, the wheelchair access is a lift from one deck to the Sanctuary deck. The lift goes through a cut out area in the deck. It is not an actual elevator, but indeed only a lift very similar to the one which had been used on the Grand in Skywalkers.

 

Having been on the Golden, the Caribbean, and the Star Princess ships since the Sanctuary was installed on those ships, I can tell you there is no lift or elevator access of any kind to the Sanctuary. Apparently Princess chose not to include a wheelchair lift when these ships were retrofitted to add the Sanctuary feature. And even though there has been additional retrofitting by Princess to add features such as the Piazza and International Café, among others, Princess has not added a lift to the Sanctuary or added other accommodation features/changes.

 

I agree with you about just ignoring Tanzer22pilot who apparently is being irrational and using hysterics instead of approaching the issue in a common sense way.

 

There are many areas that people in wheelchairs cannot access on ships because obviously it would not be structurally possible to make such changes or it may be cost prohibitive. But I agree with you that there are often cost effective methods of accommodation which can be applied to allow greater access.

 

Something of which you should also be aware as it is a change in Princess policy that occurred approximately two to three years ago--if you cannot walk onto the tender, you are not allowed to tender. This is notwithstanding the past Princess practice of using crew tender teams to lift those in a manual wheelchair onboard the tender and also the fact that a wheelchair tendering system actually exists and is in use by Princess' sister subsidiary Holland America. (and wheelchair bound guests are still required to pay the port charge for a tender port even though Princess doesn't permit them to tender.)

Edited March 5, 2013 by montgomeryfamily

[tanzer22pilot]

Cheryl, I can answer your question. Having been on the Grand a number of times both before and after the major retrofit by Princess in which Skywalkers was removed and other major structural changes were made to the ship such as building One Five and adding the Piazza and International café area, among other changes, I can tell you that there is no wheelchair access to the Sanctuary and never has been wheelchair access to the Sanctuary, as we looked both before and after the retrofit. I was surprised with all of the major structural changes to the ship that a lift was not added, since it would be a minor change to do. There was a lift in Skywalkers which took wheelchairs from one the lower floor to the upper floor (which was all discarded when Skywalkers was taken off the ship and One Five was added). So the idea of using a lift to take wheelchairs from one floor to an upper level was already in use on the Grand before the retrofit in Skywalkers--just never applied to the Sanctuary.

 

On the Crown Princess, the wheelchair access is a lift from one deck to the Sanctuary deck. The lift goes through a cut out area in the deck. It is not an actual elevator, but indeed only a lift very similar to the one which had been used on the Grand in Skywalkers.

 

Having been on the Golden, the Caribbean, and the Star Princess ships since the Sanctuary was installed on those ships, I can tell you there is no lift or elevator access of any kind to the Sanctuary. Apparently Princess chose not to include a wheelchair lift when these ships were retrofitted to add the Sanctuary feature. And even though there has been additional retrofitting by Princess to add features such as the Piazza and International Café, among others, Princess has not added a lift to the Sanctuary or added other accommodation features/changes.

 

I agree with you about just ignoring Tanzer22pilot who apparently is being irrational and using hysterics instead of approaching the issue in a common sense way.

 

There are many areas that people in wheelchairs cannot access on ships because obviously it would not be structurally possible to make such changes or it may be cost prohibitive. But I agree with you that there are often cost effective methods of accommodation which can be applied to allow greater access.

 

Something of which you should also be aware as it is a change in Princess policy that occurred approximately two to three years ago--if you cannot walk onto the tender, you are not allowed to tender. This is notwithstanding the past Princess practice of using crew tender teams to lift those in a manual wheelchair onboard the tender and also the fact that a wheelchair tendering system actually exists and is in use by Princess' sister subsidiary Holland America. (and wheelchair bound guests are still required to pay the port charge for a tender port even though Princess doesn't permit them to tender.)

 

Thank you for writing that. Ship design is much different then some general contractor adding a ramp up a half flight of stairs.

[jamesboat]

Thank you for writing that. Ship design is much different then some general contractor adding a ramp up a half flight of stairs.

 

To put it in perspective, ADA passed in 1990.

 

23 years ago.

 

Most US transit stations are not ADA accessible, even though the deadline was 1997 for retrofits (then changed). In NYC, for example, the nations busiest transit system barely has any elevators.

 

Many US sidewalks still lack basic ramps.

 

Dont expect cruising to be 100% accessible until every existing ship gets retired....so 2040+

[Amuse Bouche]

To put it in perspective, ADA passed in 1990.

 

23 years ago.

 

Most US transit stations are not ADA accessible, even though the deadline was 1997 for retrofits (then changed). In NYC, for example, the nations busiest transit system barely has any elevators.

 

Many US sidewalks still lack basic ramps.

 

Dont expect cruising to be 100% accessible until every existing ship gets retired....so 2040+

 

We live in a suburb of SF. Most politically correct place in the US...and just in the last couple of years have we gotten the corner ramps at intersection crossings. I don't think there will be any upgrades that aren't to generate revenue.

[Amuse Bouche]

Cheryl, I can answer your question. Having been on the Grand a number of times both before and after the major retrofit by Princess in which Skywalkers was removed and other major structural changes were made to the ship such as building One Five and adding the Piazza and International café area, among other changes, I can tell you that there is no wheelchair access to the Sanctuary and never has been wheelchair access to the Sanctuary, as we looked both before and after the retrofit. I was surprised with all of the major structural changes to the ship that a lift was not added, since it would be a minor change to do. There was a lift in Skywalkers which took wheelchairs from one the lower floor to the upper floor (which was all discarded when Skywalkers was taken off the ship and One Five was added). So the idea of using a lift to take wheelchairs from one floor to an upper level was already in use on the Grand before the retrofit in Skywalkers--just never applied to the Sanctuary.

 

On the Crown Princess, the wheelchair access is a lift from one deck to the Sanctuary deck. The lift goes through a cut out area in the deck. It is not an actual elevator, but indeed only a lift very similar to the one which had been used on the Grand in Skywalkers.

 

Having been on the Golden, the Caribbean, and the Star Princess ships since the Sanctuary was installed on those ships, I can tell you there is no lift or elevator access of any kind to the Sanctuary. Apparently Princess chose not to include a wheelchair lift when these ships were retrofitted to add the Sanctuary feature. And even though there has been additional retrofitting by Princess to add features such as the Piazza and International Café, among others, Princess has not added a lift to the Sanctuary or added other accommodation features/changes.

 

I agree with you about just ignoring Tanzer22pilot who apparently is being irrational and using hysterics instead of approaching the issue in a common sense way.

 

There are many areas that people in wheelchairs cannot access on ships because obviously it would not be structurally possible to make such changes or it may be cost prohibitive. But I agree with you that there are often cost effective methods of accommodation which can be applied to allow greater access.

 

Something of which you should also be aware as it is a change in Princess policy that occurred approximately two to three years ago--if you cannot walk onto the tender, you are not allowed to tender. This is notwithstanding the past Princess practice of using crew tender teams to lift those in a manual wheelchair onboard the tender and also the fact that a wheelchair tendering system actually exists and is in use by Princess' sister subsidiary Holland America. (and wheelchair bound guests are still required to pay the port charge for a tender port even though Princess doesn't permit them to tender.)

 

This is just terrible, but not too shocking. I had a feeling that they had the lift infrastructure in place with Skywalkers. That would have been a VERY easy retrofit. Shame on them.

Thanks for the info. And thankfully, the moderators have cleaned up the thread.

[Loonbeam]

The ADA issue has been pretty much hashed out, but just in case people come and look at this later I'd like to add a few points.

 

As noted, the ADA only requires 'reasonable' accommodation. If a facility can show the cost or providing accommodation exceeds the perceived benefit, then they do not have to do it.

 

In determining that, it is also considered whether the item in question is 'core' or 'unique'. For example, on a cruise ship, access to one's cabin or the dining facilities would be core features. The Sanctuary, being an add on feature (and this is the key part) with functionally similar areas being available around the ship, even if not as nice, would probably not qualify.

 

Basically, given that there are already accessible loungers throughout the ship, with drink and food service, there's no ADA requirement in play here.

[RickEk]

Something of which you should also be aware as it is a change in Princess policy that occurred approximately two to three years ago--if you cannot walk onto the tender, you are not allowed to tender. This is notwithstanding the past Princess practice of using crew tender teams to lift those in a manual wheelchair onboard the tender and also the fact that a wheelchair tendering system actually exists and is in use by Princess' sister subsidiary Holland America. (and wheelchair bound guests are still required to pay the port charge for a tender port even though Princess doesn't permit them to tender.)

 

Respectfully... this is not true. The decision to tender a guest in a wheelchair is at the sole discretion of the Captain. That decision is made with passenger and crew safety foremost in mind, therefore, if conditions do not permit safe transfer of wheelchair-bound passengers to and from the tenders, they will have to stay on the ship. There certainly is no blanket "if you're in a wheechair, you can't tender" policy at Princess.

[Amuse Bouche]

The ADA issue has been pretty much hashed out, but just in case people come and look at this later I'd like to add a few points.

 

As noted, the ADA only requires 'reasonable' accommodation. If a facility can show the cost or providing accommodation exceeds the perceived benefit, then they do not have to do it.

 

In determining that, it is also considered whether the item in question is 'core' or 'unique'. For example, on a cruise ship, access to one's cabin or the dining facilities would be core features. The Sanctuary, being an add on feature (and this is the key part) with functionally similar areas being available around the ship, even if not as nice, would probably not qualify.

 

Basically, given that there are already accessible loungers throughout the ship, with drink and food service, there's no ADA requirement in play here.

 

Wow. I'm sorry, but if I were limited to a wheelchair, I wouldn't sail Princess.

[Colo Cruiser]

Respectfully... this is not true. The decision to tender a guest in a wheelchair is at the sole discretion of the Captain. That decision is made with passenger and crew safety foremost in mind, therefore, if conditions do not permit safe transfer of wheelchair-bound passengers to and from the tenders, they will have to stay on the ship. There certainly is no blanket "if you're in a wheechair, you can't tender" policy at Princess.

 

 

I agree.

[whiterose]

I'm about to leave for my 25th cruise on Princess even though I have been denied access on every Princess ship. I have a severe hearing loss and am denied "access" to virtually alll of the onboard entertainment. I cannot hear the shows, the movies are not captioned, I cannot enjoy any of the games or quizzes, gee whiz lots of times I cannot even hear my waiter.

 

And yes I tell the staff every time I get on board, I fill out the end of cruise forms etc. If you have a handicap of any kind you're not going to get "equal" access. However, this does not stop me from enjoying my cruise. I'm sure other passengers think I'm rude or stupid but the reality is I often cannot hear what people are saying so I'm shy about joining in a conversation. I wish with all my heart this was not so but it is and I have to live with it.

[Loonbeam]

This is not a Princess issue. Every older/retrofitted ship can have these issues. I was just clarifying the rules for when they HAVE to make modifications.

 

Wow. I'm sorry, but if I were limited to a wheelchair, I wouldn't sail Princess.

[tanzer22pilot]

The ADA issue has been pretty much hashed out, but just in case people come and look at this later I'd like to add a few points.

 

As noted, the ADA only requires 'reasonable' accommodation. If a facility can show the cost or providing accommodation exceeds the perceived benefit, then they do not have to do it.

 

In determining that, it is also considered whether the item in question is 'core' or 'unique'. For example, on a cruise ship, access to one's cabin or the dining facilities would be core features. The Sanctuary, being an add on feature (and this is the key part) with functionally similar areas being available around the ship, even if not as nice, would probably not qualify.

 

Basically, given that there are already accessible loungers throughout the ship, with drink and food service, there's no ADA requirement in play here.

 

 

Thank you for saying it much nicer then I did.

[tanzer22pilot]

I'm about to leave for my 25th cruise on Princess even though I have been denied access on every Princess ship. I have a severe hearing loss and am denied "access" to virtually alll of the onboard entertainment. I cannot hear the shows, the movies are not captioned, I cannot enjoy any of the games or quizzes, gee whiz lots of times I cannot even hear my waiter.

 

And yes I tell the staff every time I get on board, I fill out the end of cruise forms etc. If you have a handicap of any kind you're not going to get "equal" access. However, this does not stop me from enjoying my cruise. I'm sure other passengers think I'm rude or stupid but the reality is I often cannot hear what people are saying so I'm shy about joining in a conversation. I wish with all my heart this was not so but it is and I have to live with it.

 

 

If we are ever on the same cruise, a few rounds of your drinks would be on my tab. Thank you for understanding.

[Loonbeam]

Unfortunately, providing an interpreter (I am taking a guess that your hearing can not be mechanically enhanced) for non-critical functions is kind of a gray area.

 

They are obligated, BTW, to make sure you are alerted to critical announcements.

 

I'm about to leave for my 25th cruise on Princess even though I have been denied access on every Princess ship. I have a severe hearing loss and am denied "access" to virtually alll of the onboard entertainment. I cannot hear the shows, the movies are not captioned, I cannot enjoy any of the games or quizzes, gee whiz lots of times I cannot even hear my waiter.

 

And yes I tell the staff every time I get on board, I fill out the end of cruise forms etc. If you have a handicap of any kind you're not going to get "equal" access. However, this does not stop me from enjoying my cruise. I'm sure other passengers think I'm rude or stupid but the reality is I often cannot hear what people are saying so I'm shy about joining in a conversation. I wish with all my heart this was not so but it is and I have to live with it.

[ducklite]

In NYC, for example, the nations busiest transit system barely has any elevators.

 

Elevators are not needed to ride buses (98% of the 6000 buses that MTA operates are equipped with a ramp or a lift), and the MTA bus system is far more comprehensive than it's subway system. The three major inter-models (Penn, Port Authority, and Grand Central) all have elevators.

 

Additionally, for those who are unable to ride the subway or fixed route bus due to their disability, Access-A-Ride provides on demand door-to-door transportation service at the same fare as regular fixed route service.

 

This more than provides the "reasonable accommodation" required by the ADA.

[Av8tor]

This is just terrible, but not too shocking. I had a feeling that they had the lift infrastructure in place with Skywalkers. That would have been a VERY easy retrofit. Shame on them.

Thanks for the info. And thankfully, the moderators have cleaned up the thread.

 

The lift for Skywalkers was indoors, so not subjected to the extreme weather elements an outdoor lift on a cruise ship would need to be designed for. If I undrestand what you meant, to say using the skywalker lift for the sanctuary would have been an "EASY" retrofit is a HUGE misrationalization!!

[Amuse Bouche]

The lift for Skywalkers was indoors, so not subjected to the extreme weather elements an outdoor lift on a cruise ship would need to be designed for. If I undrestand what you meant, to say using the skywalker lift for the sanctuary would have been an "EASY" retrofit is a HUGE misrationalization!!

 

Apparantly, that is EXACTLY what they have on the ships that do have a wheelchair lift on the Sanctuary deck.

 

It's not a misrationalization. You just have to be familiar with modern engineering. Yes, it would take some maintenence, as does everything on a ship that is exposed to the elements. Hmm, the mechanics of the tender and lifeboat cranes comes to mind...

 

I do have some knowledge of construction engineering. I don't design ADA contraptions, but I am a construction engineer for a health care company.

 

I'm only familiar with the Skywalker removal from the video, but it did come from a floor that still exists, and went into an enclosed structure that no longer exists...there had to be a shaft.