CUNARD "to LOOSEN UP "

[Cruachan]

Unfortunately, it's difficult to keep the elegant in elegant casual.

 

It's difficult for me to keep the elegant in anything!

 

It's not easy looking smart when all your clothes are by MartiStanTailoring Ltd (all your fashion problems sorted good).

 

 

J

[DreamflightPat]

I am appalled at this new onslaught by Carnival-The feedback from first time cruisers has prompted this headline.What about the loyal Cunarders ?There are plenty of other ships to accomodate people who do not want to dress up-I personally enjoy the special occasions onboard to dress up -it's the reason I book with them as do a lot of others-it's another sign of dumbing down-What next a climbing wall on QE ?

I totally agree. People who whinge and moan about formal nights shouldn't book with Cunard there are plenty of other cruise lines who cater for their tastes. Yes, I have done cruises with Regent and Seabourn and am disappointed with them for changing their dress codes. There were the whingers and moaners on their boards stating about the baggage especially when you are flying to an embarkation/disembarkation port. If you can afford to pay that sort of price for a cruise, it is only £75 extra (longhaul flights) £45 (for shorthaul flights) for a suitcase (with BA anyway and not per kilo), so I couldn't see what the problem was.

 

Cunard, please keep to your standards and keep the formal nights. It is one of the attractions for me choosing to cruise with you.

[3rdGenCunarder]

It's difficult for me to keep the elegant in anything!

 

It's not easy looking smart when all your clothes are by MartiStanTailoring Ltd (all your fashion problems sorted good).

 

 

J

 

I'm sure you look dashing, whatever the dress code. :D

 

But I've seen how unelegant "elegant casual" is on some other lines, and I'd hate to see jogging suits at dinner on Cunard. :eek:

[bluemarble]

No, he was very careful to tiptoe around this. In the Q&A, he said they would not get rid of formal nights. In the second one, he says they will limit formal nights. Well, they already are limited in a sense, because not every night is formal. So he hasn't exactly contradicted himself. Call it sneaky, call it slimy, he's good at corporate-speak. :rolleyes:

 

The part I wonder about is "allowing our ships to be a little more flexible in how formal they are." I see that as diluting the semi-formal and elegant casual (or whatever they call it) nights. Other cruise lines do this. A couple of formal nights to appease the traditionalists, and then you can wear your jeans or whatever you like to dinner on the rest of the nights. It gives a cruise a sort of split personality, and I have found (on HAL and Princess) that the informality creeps into the formal nights pretty quickly. :mad:

 

Ah yes, I see your point. In his second quote from Sydney, Mr. Shanks is not saying "we will limit formal nights" as I was misinterpreting it, but rather "we already have limited formal nights". Very good corporate-speak indeed.

 

I too get the sense that the real issue here isn't so much how many formal nights there will be from now on, but rather how informal the remaining nights may become.

 

Regards,

John.

[deck chair]

Hello

I have sailed with Cunard many times over the years and one thing that keeps me coming back is the tone of the ship and formal dress code for most evenings. Typically 4 nights. If this tone and code changes, that is, dumbed down to attract less discriminating passengers, I will certainly look elsewhere. I really don't want to be on a ship with a lot of slobs. Why pay the premium if I have to look at baseball caps in the dining room?

 

I can tell you this, one my last crossing this past Summer, the world club party was held on an expanded Semi-formal evening. (A party that had always been a formal evening in the past.) The tone was totally different. Not elegant! Not festive. I doubt that any of the passengers were happy with this change of mood. It is not a good signal to have such an affair on a semi-formal night on a Cunard Ship which are known for that wonderful tone. Peter Shanks needs to wake up and stop trying to be all things to all people.

 

I hope the tone doesn't not change for the worse. We shall see.

 

Deck Chair

[Happyboating]

I recently watched this programme:

 

http://www.televisioncatchup.co.uk/tvshow/2628/bbc2/funny-business.html

 

It was programme 3 - waves of laughter.

 

I have no idea when it was broadcast as I watched it from my Sky+ box. It was basically a documentary following a comic on a cruise ship, however, it also covered what new cruisers want and I seem to think that there were 20 million of them last year. It would appear that people like me, who like the formal evenings, are definitely in the minority! The documentary ended up showing the cruise industry national conference. Sadly, having seen that documentary, I'm not surprised to see this thread although I am disappointed because I personally feel that Cunard "could" cash in on a niche "formal" market if they went even more formal. As others have said, if Cunard are going to morph into being like a lot of other lines, we may as well book cheaper cruises with other lines!

[RobertGraves]

The part I wonder about is "allowing our ships to be a little more flexible in how formal they are." I see that as diluting the semi-formal and elegant casual (or whatever they call it) nights. Other cruise lines do this. A couple of formal nights to appease the traditionalists, and then you can wear your jeans or whatever you like to dinner on the rest of the nights. It gives a cruise a sort of split personality, and I have found (on HAL and Princess) that the informality creeps into the formal nights pretty quickly.

I too get the sense that the real issue here isn't so much how many formal nights there will be from now on, but rather how informal the remaining nights may become.

 

I agree. The remaining nights play a big role in the overall sense of formality of the cruise.

 

Strange to say but, seeing the disaster coming,:) I would not object to a limitation in the number of formal nights, as far as semi-formal continues to exist and elegant-casual continues requiring a jacket for gentlemen. (Cunard has spoiled me and I find nothing more tasteless than casual nights with no jacket in other companies...)

 

What a sad move. Let's hope at least that 'allowing our ships to be more flexible' will have mainly a geographical dimension and European cruises will continue more or less the current dress code.

[Jim Avery]

I recently watched this programme:

 

http://www.televisioncatchup.co.uk/tvshow/2628/bbc2/funny-business.html

 

It was programme 3 - waves of laughter.

 

I have no idea when it was broadcast as I watched it from my Sky+ box. It was basically a documentary following a comic on a cruise ship, however, it also covered what new cruisers want and I seem to think that there were 20 million of them last year. It would appear that people like me, who like the formal evenings, are definitely in the minority! The documentary ended up showing the cruise industry national conference. Sadly, having seen that documentary, I'm not surprised to see this thread although I am disappointed because I personally feel that Cunard "could" cash in on a niche "formal" market if they went even more formal. As others have said, if Cunard are going to morph into being like a lot of other lines, we may as well book cheaper cruises with other lines!

 

Good point about booking cheaper cruises if the standards fall. There are, after all, lots of options to sail a Vista class ship.:eek: But then, only one QM2.:D

[Seago2]

How do you know that "old fashioned" and "too formal" related specifically to dress code?

[bazzaw]

Loosen up people. He only said that they intended to "loosen up " a little -- no details yet :D I expect it will be something similar to when Edward, Prince of Wales introduced the Dinner jacket in Victorian times - he was just a little tired of those long tails every night at dinner. Black tie and Dinner jackets are actually informal dress.

 

Barry

[bazzaw]

Seabourn, Silversea, Regent, Crsytal have all become far less formal in the past few years

 

But who can afford to sail with them?? :) Certainly not me.

 

Barry

[glojo]

Er... Excuse me folks but have we a link to either Cunard or Carnival regarding this suggestion?

 

I have read lots and lots of headline grabbing statements in newspapers but have no foundation regarding facts. We have this headline being made from the newspaper and alongisde it a picture of Mr Shanks but NO direct quote from this person.

 

I'll believe it when I hear it from the 'horses moth but until then i am going to sit back and read the posts on this thread and secretly congratulate the person that may or may not have possibly mader up this story..

 

Please carry on saying with the show..

 

[Happyboating]

How do you know that "old fashioned" and "too formal" related specifically to dress code?

 

If you are able to view the link that I posted - I can't actually check if it works as I'm using an iPad! - then it is quite clear that the younger crowd (the 20 million new cruisers a year whose business every cruise line is after) want more casual cruising. In fact, "rock cruises" are a growing market - a bit like a Glastonbury at sea - and music organisers are chartering ships which, of course, is very lucrative for the cruise lines. There were interviews with the head of Carnival, Royal Carribean and some other people and as EVERYONE appears to want to go more "casual" and to have less formal nights, I personally think there will be an opportunity for Cunard to go more formal and to create a niche market as I feel that they could pick up the passengers from other lines who also prefer a more formal cruise. But, of course, this is obviously just my personal opinion. Apparently the growing cruise market is already larger than the entire Bed & Breakfast trade in the UK! It really was quite an interesting documentary if you could ignore the comic who they were actually following.

[Seago2]

Couldn't play the link and actually watching something on the Normandie as we speak.... I understand that you all don't want to see sloppy, ill mannered people, but there is a world of difference between that and a coat and tails. I am someone who is not bothered by dress, however, I am pretty horrified by some other behaviors I see on board.

 

So: how do we know this is specifically about dress code? Could be about on board offerings... Other things that could be "relaxed". Honestly- when I think of doing a crossing I wonder what we'll do all day long. We like to read and sit but- 7 days is a long time. I think we skew young at 50.

[bazzaw]

Cunard is the only cruiseline that I know of which sends each of their ships on "World cruises" every year. When these ships are heading into waters associated with Australians, they are invariably somewhat empty - however they soon fill up (well so they should at the low prices offered to fill them! :D) - because a.) older Aussies seem to have plenty of money these days and b.) they have been denied access to ships of this calibre in the past. However, like tipping, formal dressing is not part of Australian's DNA. The only time we see it here is at weddings - and football Premiership events (at which, all of the young ones - newly wed Husbands and Footballers - look quite uncomfortable.)

 

As is said -- in most matters, just follow the money. It is interesting to note that this supposed statement was made in Sydney :)

 

Barry

[Salacia]

If you are able to view the link that I posted - I can't actually check if it works as I'm using an iPad! - then it is quite clear that the younger crowd (the 20 million new cruisers a year whose business every cruise line is after) want more casual cruising. In fact, "rock cruises" are a growing market - a bit like a Glastonbury at sea - and music organisers are chartering ships which, of course, is very lucrative for the cruise lines. There were interviews with the head of Carnival, Royal Carribean and some other people and as EVERYONE appears to want to go more "casual" and to have less formal nights, I personally think there will be an opportunity for Cunard to go more formal and to create a niche market as I feel that they could pick up the passengers from other lines who also prefer a more formal cruise. But, of course, this is obviously just my personal opinion. Apparently the growing cruise market is already larger than the entire Bed & Breakfast trade in the UK! It really was quite an interesting documentary if you could ignore the comic who they were actually following.

 

Happyboating, I don't think you're alone in that opinion. To quote Peter Shanks in an interview with Richard Wagner of Beyond Ships:

"...We are not concerned about competition because we have a pretty unique position. Cunard's brand differentiation is probably the strongest of everybody because we are very distinct. We do have the most famous ocean liners in the world. We do have a very formal experience. We are proud of that and not looking to change that...As noted earlier, Cunard seeks to build upon the reputation it has developed during its 170 years of providing passenger service. The onboard experience seeks to evoke the elegance and glamour of the 20th Century transatlantic liners. "If you go into the Queens Room for a Cunard World Club party and you see everyone dressed in back tie, champagne, cocktails and a speech from the Commodore, that is just a wonderful experience and that is timeless. That happened 50 years ago, that will happen today and that will happen in another 15 or 20 years. People just really get a thrill out of it, that tradition in a modern facility..."

 

quoted from http://www.beyondships.com/Cunard-Shanks-1.html

[Officeboy]

Er... Excuse me folks but have we a link to either Cunard or Carnival regarding this suggestion?

 

I have read lots and lots of headline grabbing statements in newspapers but have no foundation regarding facts. We have this headline being made from the newspaper and alongside it a picture of Mr Shanks but NO direct quote from this person.

 

I'll believe it when I hear it from the 'horses moth but until then i am going to sit back and read the posts on this thread and secretly congratulate the person that may or may not have possibly made up this story..

 

Please carry on saying with the show..

 

 

 

 

Here's a link: http://www.etravelblackboard.com/art...tloosen-upquot

[Leucothea]

Brick by brick by brick. Will Cunard be a tacky cruise line eventually? Or is this article untrue? Still, there is a general wind blowing in the direction of a the mundane.

[Thaxted]

Er... Excuse me folks but have we a link to either Cunard or Carnival regarding this suggestion?

 

I have read lots and lots of headline grabbing statements in newspapers but have no foundation regarding facts. We have this headline being made from the newspaper and alongside it a picture of Mr Shanks but NO direct quote from this person.

 

I'll believe it when I hear it from the 'horses moth but until then i am going to sit back and read the posts on this thread and secretly congratulate the person that may or may not have possibly made up this story..

 

Please carry on saying with the show..

 

 

 

 

Here's a link: http://www.etravelblackboard.com/art...tloosen-upquot

 

Well, some of the remarks that concern us are reported as quotations from Mr. Shanks himself. Of course, as I said in a previous post, it's difficult to discern just what he means. Think Alan Greenspan or tea leaves or the Oracle at Delphi. But those of us in the northern hemisphere who love the formality of a Cunard sailing may find at least some reassurance in another account of what Mr. Shanks said. http://www.travelmonitor.com.au/cunard-continues-to-grow-australian-market/.

 

Notice in particular these words: "Australian customers ..., said Mr. Shanks, look for an informality that could be seen as inconsistent with the brand. Not so, said Shanks, who believes that as the world changes, so must Cunard move with the times. 'Australians bring vigour and excitement – they’re pretty passionate people and really lift the ship’s atmosphere', he said. This means relaxing some of the dress codes and paring back the traditional ‘formal nights’ on Cunard cruises for Australian passengers, although the formal nights are an ‘expectation’ for trans-Atlantic passengers where tradition is key."

 

Could it be then, that for the moment things are only going to go downhill down under?

[Thaxted]

Loosen up people. He only said that they intended to "loosen up " a little -- no details yet :D I expect it will be something similar to when Edward, Prince of Wales introduced the Dinner jacket in Victorian times - he was just a little tired of those long tails every night at dinner. Black tie and Dinner jackets are actually informal dress.

 

Barry

Interesting point about Edward, but the wrong century!

[thetwotonys]

As a first time cruiser, and technically a "young" cruiser (as Captain Wells told me that I looked out of place....by about 40 years), I personally chose Cunard BECAUSE of the formality. I didn't want to be on a floating nightclub for my first cruise experience, and was most excited about the dress code. The atmosphere it added to our journey was one of the highlights.

 

However, the average age of passengers on my voyage was 80 (lets say those born around 1930-40). Without trying to make anyone aware of their own mortality, those passengers are going to, in the not too distant future, start to dwindle, and will be replaced with a new generation of travellers from a different era. Perhaps Cunard is looking towards the future, and how to sustain their brand through the generational shift that will occur with their passenger base.

 

Change is inevitable. It's going to happen. As sad as it was, I recall watching the wonderful spectacle of passengers dancing one night in the Queens Room and reflecting on the fact that if you took this cruise in 20, maybe 30 years time, there'll hardly be anyone dancing at all :(

[Germancruiser]

Coming from Celebrity and Royal Caribbean - I sailed with them when they still had their dress code as Cunard still has. They changed that and took out the semi formell - so they still have formal nights ( two or three depending on the length of the cruise) and casual. I NEVER have seen any slopiness there, on casual night there may be not many tie´s and jackets- but nevertheles nicely dressed people. So I really don´t care if they change their dress code. I totaly agree with thetwotonys- one has to move with the changes time brings. So I am sure a Cunard Cruise without those many formal nights still is something special. The people stay the same , don´t they. ( well unless they put the prices down down down- then - different story)

[Salacia]

Partial quote

...

Change is inevitable. It's going to happen. As sad as it was, I recall watching the wonderful spectacle of passengers dancing one night in the Queens Room and reflecting on the fact that if you took this cruise in 20, maybe 30 years time, there'll hardly be anyone dancing at all :(

 

Considering the life span of the ship, that's a fairly good guess, regardless of the age of current passengers. But people will still dance; that is a constant. :)

[Salacia]

 

Well, some of the remarks that concern us are reported as quotations from Mr. Shanks himself. Of course, as I said in a previous post, it's difficult to discern just what he means. Think Alan Greenspan or tea leaves or the Oracle at Delphi. But those of us in the northern hemisphere who love the formality of a Cunard sailing may find at least some reassurance in another account of what Mr. Shanks said. http://www.travelmonitor.com.au/cunard-continues-to-grow-australian-market/.

 

Notice in particular these words: "Australian customers ..., said Mr. Shanks, look for an informality that could be seen as inconsistent with the brand. Not so, said Shanks, who believes that as the world changes, so must Cunard move with the times. 'Australians bring vigour and excitement – they’re pretty passionate people and really lift the ship’s atmosphere', he said. This means relaxing some of the dress codes and paring back the traditional ‘formal nights’ on Cunard cruises for Australian passengers, although the formal nights are an ‘expectation’ for trans-Atlantic passengers where tradition is key."

 

Could it be then, that for the moment things are only going to go downhill down under?

 

Peter Shanks quotes are contradictory. Which to me indicates that Cunard does not have a clear message. Is Cunard playing to the gallery? Shanks comments in different parts of the world indicate that is the case.

 

I understand the cruise lines need to go where the money is, and indications are they are looking at expanding Australian and Chinese markets. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. Best wishes, -S.

[Salacia]

Cunard is the only cruiseline that I know of which sends each of their ships on "World cruises" every year. When these ships are heading into waters associated with Australians, they are invariably somewhat empty - however they soon fill up (well so they should at the low prices offered to fill them! :D) - because a.) older Aussies seem to have plenty of money these days and b.) they have been denied access to ships of this calibre in the past. However, like tipping, formal dressing is not part of Australian's DNA. The only time we see it here is at weddings - and football Premiership events (at which, all of the young ones - newly wed Husbands and Footballers - look quite uncomfortable.)

 

As is said -- in most matters, just follow the money. It is interesting to note that this supposed statement was made in Sydney :)

 

Barry

 

Barry, yes, that makes sense to me. Thanks for your post.

It will be interesting to see how cruise lines morph to fit the (anticipated) growing cruise market in China. Yup, just follow the money :cool: