Viking Oceans Don't Want Us

[kitty9]

The new Viking Oceans cruise line, a part of Viking River cruises, has made it obvious that they don't want those of us with disabilities cruising on their new ocean liners. In addition to the fact that their ships will not have any accessible cabins, here's their statement, from their FAQ portion of the website, on their policy for disabled:

 

Viking Cruises welcomes disabled guests but wishes all guests to understand that challenges will exist on board and during shore excursions. Viking Star has elevators, but there may still be thresholds that could make movement difficult. Shore excursions may require movement over cobblestones or up and down stairs; accordingly, a physically challenged guest will require the services of a responsible adult since crew availability is limited. Guests need to provide their own wheelchairs, except in an emergency. Motorized scooters are not typically suited on international cruises and cannot be accommodated.

 

Interesting that they "say" they welcome disabled guests, but they make no accommodations for us. Plus, when in the Sam Hell did some higher up in their company decide that scooters are not suited on international cruises and cannot be accommodated? What planet or century are they living on or in? My scooter has seen more international travel miles than I can count. Good old tin lizzy has been to Europe, the Baltic, throughout the British Isles, South America and on most of the Caribbean islands. While we all realize that not all areas can be accessible to those of us who are full time power wheelchair or scooter users, we still have lots of places where we can go and do.

 

I certainly hope that Viking Ocean never plans to come over the pond and cruise out of any US port because I know I for one will be protesting very loudly.

 

BTW, I have spoken to persons at Viking and have written a letter, but have received no response to date. I'll keep you informed.

[CRUISEWITHH]

I thought that this kind of nonsense went out long ago. For a cruise line to make this type of statement is outrageous!!

 

Please tell me where and who you wrote to so that I can add my comments.

[raindropsalways]

Darcie – Please to not take it personally or as a slam against the disabled. They are just attempting to be honest. The majority of the European river cruises and probably other geographical areas, cruise in areas that are not what we consider wheelchair friendly. The ships dock at ancient structures. Ramps do not exist, as well as elevators or lifts. There is not any reason to modify the boats because the majority of the time mobility devices cannot get to the boats. Also, someone in wheelchair can be assisted much easier than someone on a scooter, especially one of those large scooters.

 

 

On a fairly recent trip, we did the stretch from Bingen to Neuwied on the Rhine. The designated boarding point and departure point was a combination of accessibility for both the train and the river boat. We were limited to the main deck on the boat even though it had an elevator. It was just a half days cruise for the thrill of it all.

 

 

If you ever plan on going to London, be prepared for a negative attitude toward scooters. The large scooters are virtually restricted from most forms of transportation. There is only space for one wheelchair / small scooter on the city buses. London is working on up-grading the tube and trains, but they have a long ways to go. Currently they do provide good information on what is available at all stations.

 

 

I do not know if you are aware that a number of “old” hotels within the U.S. do not have to conform to ADA standards. If the hotel is registered as “historical” building, it does not have to meet ADA requirements. We stayed at one in Miami a couple times and we are looking at one in Vermont for next year. The place in Vermont has already acknowledged they have a ramp to enter and an elevator.

 

 

Oh, my first trip to Egypt, I could still maneuver on my own. However, I did take note of the fact that the Egyptians would make things work. The cabins, lobby and dining was all on the main deck; thus that portion accessible to someone in a wheelchair. However, getting to and from the shore was an entirely different issue. I saw a crew carrying a man in a wheelchair across a rope bridge to get to the boat.

 

 

Betty

[katisdale]

I think we should note that this is a new build ocean going vessel, not a river vessel. I am surprised that the European Union has not had words with the company.

[raindropsalways]

I think we should note that this is a new build ocean going vessel, not a river vessel. I am surprised that the European Union has not had words with the company.

 

What do you expect?

 

I see a small ship that is in full compliance with European Union handicap requirements and is being very honest about the situation.

 

The ship is “wheelchair” accessible. There is not anything that requires a ship to build a mound so that scooters can get over the so called lip on exterior doorways. Personally, I would not sail on a ship that did not have the water-tight doors, if one existed. And I happen to be a rather daring and adventurous.

 

The ship is small, thus it is not required to dock at the cruise ship docks which can put it at those ancient structures I previous mentioned. Many of those docks have what the navy refers to as ladders. Yes, the exact same thing we refer to as ladders. Not really what one would classify as wheelchair or scooter friendly.

 

Their cruises include the shore excursions. There is not anything any cruise line can do about the terrain or environment. When was the last time you maneuvered Tallinn? There is nothing wheelchair friendly about Tallinn and I doubt that any of cruise shore excursions are oriented toward wheelchairs or scooters.

 

I appreciate the honesty and directness from the company. I am sorry that you are unhappy with the cruise line. I do understand that one might not be happy, but whose fault is that? There are a number of travel companies that specialize in travel for the handicap. If those companies do not meet your desires, stay with the cruises and be reasonable about what they offer.

 

Betty

[Essiesmom]

There was already a thread about this:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1864276

[kitty9]

Betty, what you're not seeing is that although the ship may be "wheelchair accessible", by not having a single accessible cabin they're saying "we don't want disabled". And, how dare they make an assumption that because I use a scooter full time that I cannot handle international travel. I have been in many countries in my 73 cruises, including two partial world cruises on Crystal, (which by the way is a line with two small ships) that the uninformed might think I'd not be able to visit. I'm sorry, but I know how to handle visits to "difficult" countries and I can make allowances. I've been to every continent (yes, even Antarctica) with no help from anyone on the cruise lines I've sailed because I know how to travel with my scooter. What angers me is that the people who run this line have made incorrect assumptions on how we disabled travel---and we travel very nicely, thank you very much.

 

Oh, and BTW, I called Viking this afternoon, and unlike the comments by those on that other thread, the CSR told me that this first ship will not have accessible cabins. So, I don't know what happened with the information people received on that other thread, but today I was told there were no accessible cabins. Hopefully, they will change their tune.

 

Also, some claim they will allow power wheelchairs. So I ask, what's the difference between those huge wheelchairs and the much more mobile and smaller scooters?

[xxoocruiser]

 

 

 

I do not know if you are aware that a number of “old” hotels within the U.S. do not have to conform to ADA standards. If the hotel is registered as “historical” building, it does not have to meet ADA requirements. We stayed at one in Miami a couple times and we are looking at one in Vermont for next year. The place in Vermont has already acknowledged they have a ramp to enter and an elevator.

 

Betty

Actually it's not just "registered historical buildings" in the USA that do not have to meet ADA requirements. Any USA building built prior to the implementation of ADA was "grandfathered in" and are not required to have accessible features until such time that the building is renovated. As a result there are still many buildings throughout the USA that have purposely chosen not renovate to avoid the costly ADA changes.

 

 

[PennyAgain]

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Actually it's not just "registered historical buildings" in the USA that do not have to meet ADA requirements. Any USA building built prior to the implementation of ADA was "grandfathered in" and are not required to have accessible features until such time that the building is renovated. As a result there are still many buildings throughout the USA that have purposely chosen not renovate to avoid the costly ADA changes.

 

 

 

Actually there is not nor has there ever been any funding for enforcement of the ADA in hotels or anywhere else in the USA. A few court cases have been made with decisions benefitting the disabled but many people have not had much faith in the ADA as it was written and how it has been put into force.

 

However, some states and some cities have their own ADA type laws and regulations which do have some code inspection abilities.

 

Some disabled people believe that the ADA has sharp teeth, but it does not. As govenment funding for many programs has been cut the ADA with no funding at all is not very useful from the federal level.

[SeattleCruiselover]

Also, some claim they will allow power wheelchairs. So I ask, what's the difference between those huge wheelchairs and the much more mobile and smaller scooters?

 

 

Truth? My "huge" power chair will turn on a dime and I can make tight turns into rooms/doors that you would never get your scooter into without spending five minutes or more doing three point turns and the like, with their anywhere from 40-52" turning radius. It's all a matter of taste. I don't like scooters because of the difficulty in maneuvering them, and I "love" my chair because I can get out with it much more easily.

[katisdale]

I was in Tallin two years ago on a Princess cruise and enjoyed a ship sponsored tour there with my scooter. Not many curb cuts but well worth the hassle and I would encourage others to go there.

[ducklite]

Consider that not all "disabled" guests have mobility concerns. Disability is a word that covers a large number of life-altering conditions, many of which do not affect mobility in any way.

[raindropsalways]

Darcie – I am sure you realize that we (you, Ruth and I), go places the average person on a scooter would not. There is not any cruise line or tour company that would commit to “accessible” trips for many of the adventures we have taken. Also, you should be aware that their comments are not directed at you as an individual; be real.

 

 

I am positive that all of you know the lip on exterior doors is a problem for the small scooters. Our clearance is something like 2”. I do not know, but believe that the power chairs have a considerable higher clearance. Regardless, it can be a serious problem for a person on a scooter. I have got hung up on them a few times and fortunately, I am still able to get myself unstuck.

 

 

Appears that some of us realize that we in the U.S. are lucky enough to be allowed “turn around” space. Since handicap accepted mobility devices have the capabilities of going both forward and backward, there is not any need for the additional space in some jurisdictions.

 

 

My one cousin in Copenhagen recently became handicap. Knowing that Ruth and I use cruises for traveling, he decided he wanted to take a river cruise in Russia. He called me to discus the ins and outs. I did advise him that most river cruises are not wheelchair friendly. Also, that if he is going to travel, get a small travel scooter. The Danish medical system provided him with one of the big scooters. The next time he called, he was irate. The cruise line would not allow any scooters on board. Apparently that particular cruise line had some issues with someone that demanded that the crew carry their scooter up and down the stairs on board and as needed on and off the ship, thus all scooters were banned. I do not know which cruise line that was.

 

 

Viking Cruises is correct in issuing a warning that things may be difficult for those on scooters. If they did not do that, the individual that traded in her broom for a scooter would be the first to sue the company for false advertising. We all know that. Again, this is not a “personal” comment, it is to protect the company and individuals that cannot handle what they consider difficult. Even though it may be irritating to some, it is not directed at any one person and should not be considered personal.

 

 

As far as any cruise line wanting our business, they are stuck with us. Look at the math, we are not profitable to them. The space allowed for two accessible cabins could probably make three comfortable standard cabins; 50% more income. There is not any crawl space between decks, thus the level bathroom becomes very expensive. The grab bars, emergency signal system, etc. it all adds up to additional cost and additional maintenance.

 

 

I would lay odds that any ship sponsored tour in Tallinn did not go where we went. I agree that Tallinn is beautiful, but definitely not classified as “wheelchair friendly.”

 

 

I am not familiar with the handicap rules in the EU, I do believe it is very minimal and very general. In Denmark, the guide lines are based on dignity and necessity. If you want to take a cruise and the ship does not meet your needs, tough! The cruise is not a necessity. If you want to go to the grocery store and you are not able to access your groceries, they will give you assistance immediately.

 

 

I think at some point we should all be thankful for what is available to us.

 

 

Betty

[PennyAgain]

Betty, very well said.

 

In my own experience the path toward more accessibility is narrowing as time passes. Tougher economic times gives governments and companies excuses to do less and do provide less.

 

I recently stayed in a hotel in a small town in New York State which was not at all well adapted for the needs of people who cannot climb stairs or struggle to do so.

 

The answer provided by the manager was that the hotel has a few H/C rooms near the only elevator and that's it. The hotel is in a small town with no ADA enforcement at all.

 

I ended up in a room that required I take 2 different flights of stairs and that was that. I managed by it wasn't pretty and I was worn out.

[terrierjohn]

As a carer my first reaction was to sign up to any petition demanding that Viking provide accessible cabins. However on reflection if their ocean ships are to be small possibly utilising river ports or small tender ports then we would not want to sail on them anyway. Therefore it is perhaps understandable why Viking would not install accessible cabins when the demand from full time wheelchair users would not be there.

[sailinglisa]

Darcie – I am sure you realize that we (you, Ruth and I), go places the average person on a scooter would not. There is not any cruise line or tour company that would commit to “accessible” trips for many of the adventures we have taken. Also, you should be aware that their comments are not directed at you as an individual; be real.

 

 

I am positive that all of you know the lip on exterior doors is a problem for the small scooters. Our clearance is something like 2”. I do not know, but believe that the power chairs have a considerable higher clearance. Regardless, it can be a serious problem for a person on a scooter. I have got hung up on them a few times and fortunately, I am still able to get myself unstuck.

 

 

Appears that some of us realize that we in the U.S. are lucky enough to be allowed “turn around” space. Since handicap accepted mobility devices have the capabilities of going both forward and backward, there is not any need for the additional space in some jurisdictions.

 

 

My one cousin in Copenhagen recently became handicap. Knowing that Ruth and I use cruises for traveling, he decided he wanted to take a river cruise in Russia. He called me to discus the ins and outs. I did advise him that most river cruises are not wheelchair friendly. Also, that if he is going to travel, get a small travel scooter. The Danish medical system provided him with one of the big scooters. The next time he called, he was irate. The cruise line would not allow any scooters on board. Apparently that particular cruise line had some issues with someone that demanded that the crew carry their scooter up and down the stairs on board and as needed on and off the ship, thus all scooters were banned. I do not know which cruise line that was.

 

 

Viking Cruises is correct in issuing a warning that things may be difficult for those on scooters. If they did not do that, the individual that traded in her broom for a scooter would be the first to sue the company for false advertising. We all know that. Again, this is not a “personal” comment, it is to protect the company and individuals that cannot handle what they consider difficult. Even though it may be irritating to some, it is not directed at any one person and should not be considered personal.

 

 

As far as any cruise line wanting our business, they are stuck with us. Look at the math, we are not profitable to them. The space allowed for two accessible cabins could probably make three comfortable standard cabins; 50% more income. There is not any crawl space between decks, thus the level bathroom becomes very expensive. The grab bars, emergency signal system, etc. it all adds up to additional cost and additional maintenance.

 

 

I would lay odds that any ship sponsored tour in Tallinn did not go where we went. I agree that Tallinn is beautiful, but definitely not classified as “wheelchair friendly.”

 

 

I am not familiar with the handicap rules in the EU, I do believe it is very minimal and very general. In Denmark, the guide lines are based on dignity and necessity. If you want to take a cruise and the ship does not meet your needs, tough! The cruise is not a necessity. If you want to go to the grocery store and you are not able to access your groceries, they will give you assistance immediately.

 

 

I think at some point we should all be thankful for what is available to us.

 

 

Betty

 

I nominate this post of the year!!!! You have stated so elegantly and nicely what I have been thinking but could not find the words to say.

 

I am a nurse, and after years of abusing my body by lifting and transferring patients, I am beginning to suffer the effects of that work on my body. I am finding that I cannot stand for more than a couple of minutes without my back starting to scream in pain; my knees hurt when I try and bend them and I find I am walking more and more with locked knees so I can walk without pain. I know I need to see my doctor and get more than just stronger pain meds, but you know us nurses! :D We are the last that will admit to any weaknesses and we think we can diagnosis and cure ourselves! :p

 

So, while I have always been aware of access issues when I have cruised because of my occupation, it is now becoming somewhat of a reality for me. I find myself actually considering wheelchair embarkation and disembarkation because of the standing issues, finding a VERY centrally located with easiest access to the areas of the ship that are most important to me. And I find myself leaning more and more after 21 cruises to staying on the ship versus going ashore and doing the shore ex's I love (like Catamaran cruises and snorkeling expeditions.) I am beginning to understand on a more personal level of what travel is like for the mobility impaired.

 

That being said, not every cruise line can be everything to everyone. Viking Ocean Cruises may welcome the disabled, but considering the size of the ship and the ports intended to go to, they may be reaching out to those disabled cruisers who do not have much mobility impairment. jmho

[raindropsalways]

Lisa - Thank you for your kind comments. I will admit that I do have a problem comprehending some people's expectations that others (or companies) are responsible for our conditions.

 

It sounds like you are procrastinating on obtaining your handicap status. Stop! I've been there and done that. There is no reason to be in pain. The doctor gave me something that was a narcotic and I refused to take it. Now I just take Tylenol when the pain does not let up and aspirin (heart related). With the scooter I no longer take endurance hikes. I still do limited walking. My doctor tells me to get exercise, but do not exert myself. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to do that. Exercises while sitting does affect the lungs.

 

Please, do not endure the pain and try to avoid the strong medications. A small scooter is very easy to travel with and makes the trip so much more enjoyable. And yes, with a scooter, you will find bumps in the road.

 

Betty

[kitty9]

Betty, I hope you don't think that I have ever said that cruise lines are responsible for my condition. That's something I've never felt, nor implied. And, when did I say that anything written by the cruise line was directed at me, personally. In all honesty, I've never felt that Viking's rules were personal. I guess I'm just not understanding your admonishment.

[raindropsalways]

Darcie – I do not recall ever seeing any of your posts that suggest or imply that you consider the cruise lines responsible for your condition in any aspect. However, I am positive that you have read or seen many others impose unreasonable expectations upon the cruise lines without any regard to the safety of the overall passengers and ship. Their only apparent concern being their own comfort.

 

 

Your comment “...And, how dare they make an assumption that because I use a scooter full time that I cannot handle international travel...” does sound rather personal and totally surprised me. I have read many of your post and found them to be very informative, practical and helpful. Guess I just was not expecting the way that comment sounds. In actuality, many of us probably say things that do not come out the way we meant them.

 

 

Off the subject: I enjoyed the name of your scooter, “Tin Lizzy”. I call mine “James” which also goes back in time. Tin Lizzy is probably easier to explain than James. The younger group does not really understand “listening” to programs on radio vs watching on TV.

 

 

Anyway, I assume that you have done as much or more research as I have done in regards to river cruising. The access and terrain of the docking areas makes the trip impossible for many of us. Result; to even consider an accessible river boat or an ocean boat that would dock at those piers would be impractical. To the point that I feel it would be deceitful and cause a tremendous amount of disappointment.

 

 

If anybody wants to take a day cruise or dinner cruise on one of Europe's rivers, they probably can do so without any problems, providing they check the applicable ports for accessibility. We did not do a full day on the Rhine because we had to catch a train to Paris. In Budapest, access for a dinner cruise on the Danube is no better or worse than the steamboat in New Orleans.

 

 

As far as European trains go, there has been tremendous improvements in the past few years. However, if one plans to travel by train, check the appropriate train company for accessible stations.

 

 

Betty