Problem with Captains Club loyalty program conversion dates

[Orator]

Charles, I know having read your previous posts that the thrust of your dissatisfaction is that you are now further away from being a Zenith cruiser, they aren't going to count your booked cruises that you'd worked out had you at or very near the old "100 cruises" club and with points being earned in a different way it is going to take you longer to get to be a top level cruiser. I'm perhaps at an over-sensitive stage at this moment in time having lost someone very close to me who I'd hoped would be around for longer. Life is just too short to worry about this kind of stuff, what status we can board the ship with etc etc. All of us here able to cruise are extremely lucky and privileged to be able to do it.

 

Phil

 

I wish to express my heartfelt condolences for your loss. Everything works out in the end.

[excitedofharpenden]

I wish to express my heartfelt condolences for your loss. Everything works out in the end.

Thanks Charles. Much appreciated.

 

Phil

[gagirl7143]

Our points finally came over today for our November 9 Azamara cruise. We received 48 points for our Veranda (3 x 16). I called Captains Club because the cruise started November 9 and officially ended on Monday November 25.

 

They told me their executive decision was that the cutoff was November 24. Those on a cruise at the time of the conversion whose cruise ended on Sunday November 24 were converted from the old system.

 

This goes against what was officially posted,

Effective on sailings commencing after November 25, 2013, the new Captain's Club will offer a six-tier program. The Club's current levels of “Preview,” “Classic,” “Select” and “Elite” will remain, with two new tiers -- “Elite Plus” and “Zenith" -- each with their own unique set of benefits and privileges.

 

I know those in Suites are happy with this decision as they received over 100 points for a 16 night cruise. We actually disembarked on the 24th, but I know that was not the official end date.

 

If anyone had a cruise during the conversion that ended after November 24 and were converted using the 3 x conversion rate please let me know.

 

Thanks.

Same happened with us on Equinox Ta !!

Very upsetting as we didn't get the new benefits but were given lesser new points!!

[ozark74]

Our points finally came over today for our November 9 Azamara cruise. We received 48 points for our Veranda (3 x 16). I called Captains Club because the cruise started November 9 and officially ended on Monday November 25.

 

They told me their executive decision was that the cutoff was November 24. Those on a cruise at the time of the conversion whose cruise ended on Sunday November 24 were converted from the old system.

 

This goes against what was officially posted,

Effective on sailings commencing after November 25, 2013, the new Captain's Club will offer a six-tier program. The Club's current levels of “Preview,” “Classic,” “Select” and “Elite” will remain, with two new tiers -- “Elite Plus” and “Zenith" -- each with their own unique set of benefits and privileges.

 

I know those in Suites are happy with this decision as they received over 100 points for a 16 night cruise. We actually disembarked on the 24th, but I know that was not the official end date.

 

If anyone had a cruise during the conversion that ended after November 24 and were converted using the 3 x conversion rate please let me know.

 

Thanks.

 

We left on November 25 so in theory we should be under the old system. Checked today and got points on the new system. So instead of having 750 points we have 730. 20 points short.:confused::confused:

Edited December 16, 2013 by ozark74

[Orator]

Charles, I know having read your previous posts that the thrust of your dissatisfaction is that you are now further away from being a Zenith cruiser, they aren't going to count your booked cruises that you'd worked out had you at or very near the old "100 cruises" club and with points being earned in a different way it is going to take you longer to get to be a top level cruiser. I'm perhaps at an over-sensitive stage at this moment in time having lost someone very close to me who I'd hoped would be around for longer. Life is just too short to worry about this kind of stuff, what status we can board the ship with etc etc. All of us here able to cruise are extremely lucky and privileged to be able to do it.

 

Phil

 

The major concern I express was over not counting cruises booked and completely paid for under the old system under the old point system. I believe that this constitues a violation of the passenger contract by denying the benefit in place when the cruise was paid in full. In essence, this constitutes, IMHO a reduction in benefits to those who booked and paid in full in good faith. The result is that almost everyone on a current cruise will receive fewer points and that will make it more difficult to move to a higher level. That it will be more difficult for me is a result of the implementation of the new system, but this may affect a goodly number of others as well. I'm surprised that there appears to be little support for my position. Guess some think I'm greedy, self centered or worse. The attacks on my position have largely been attacks on my motives, but no one has really discussed the principle expressed. I was to receive a call from Captain's Club, but none received.

Be well.

[NLH Arizona]

The major concern I express was over not counting cruises booked and completely paid for under the old system under the old point system. I believe that this constitues a violation of the passenger contract by denying the benefit in place when the cruise was paid in full. In essence, this constitutes, IMHO a reduction in benefits to those who booked and paid in full in good faith. The result is that almost everyone on a current cruise will receive fewer points and that will make it more difficult to move to a higher level. That it will be more difficult for me is a result of the implementation of the new system, but this may affect a goodly number of others as well. I'm surprised that there appears to be little support for my position. Guess some think I'm greedy, self centered or worse. The attacks on my position have largely been attacks on my motives, but no one has really discussed the principle expressed. I was to receive a call from Captain's Club, but none received.

Be well.

Some of us have discussed the principles you expressed, but don't feel that you have a leg to stand on, and you don't want to hear it. Any company has the right to change a "free" rewards program when they like. Your paid or booked contract is for your cruise, as that is what you are paying for, not their "free" rewards program.

 

I'm really sorry that it is going to take you longer to become Zenith, just as it is going to take others longer to acheive their next tier, but that is the way it is. Hopefully you will continue cruising with Celebrity for the cruise experience, not for being any particular tier in their Captain's Club, because itsn't that what it is all about anyway!

[Orator]

Some of us have discussed the principles you expressed, but don't feel that you have a leg to stand on, and you don't want to hear it. Any company has the right to change a "free" rewards program when they like. Your paid or booked contract is for your cruise, as that is what you are paying for, not their "free" rewards program.

 

I'm really sorry that it is going to take you longer to become Zenith, just as it is going to take others longer to acheive their next tier, but that is the way it is. Hopefully you will continue cruising with Celebrity for the cruise experience, not for being any particular tier in their Captain's Club, because itsn't that what it is all about anyway!

 

I want people to rip my argument apart as well as they can so that I can refine it. To your first point: don't think that there was ever a vote concerning my "leg". Wouldn't matter anyhow unless the opinions were offered by experts in contract law. Second, the Supreme Court may soon rule on what companies may or may not do in terms of their Loyalty programs. It might just turn out that they are not as free to act as some believe. Perhaps the ruling will uphold their rights. Perhaps it will be too narrow to mean anything. Time will tell.Third, several who claim to know something about the topic tell me that "benefits" are indeed an implied part of the contract. Forth, I have 6 future cruises booked with Celebrity since I really enjoy the Celebrity experience. I might be obsessed by this topic, but I tend to fight for what I believe is right until I feel that I'm just kicking the proverbial "dead horse".

[NLH Arizona]

I want people to rip my argument apart as well as they can so that I can refine it. To your first point: don't think that there was ever a vote concerning my "leg". Wouldn't matter anyhow unless the opinions were offered by experts in contract law. Second, the Supreme Court may soon rule on what companies may or may not do in terms of their Loyalty programs. It might just turn out that they are not as free to act as some believe. Perhaps the ruling will uphold their rights. Perhaps it will be too narrow to mean anything. Time will tell.Third, several who claim to know something about the topic tell me that "benefits" are indeed an implied part of the contract. Forth, I have 6 future cruises booked with Celebrity since I really enjoy the Celebrity experience. I might be obsessed by this topic, but I tend to fight for what I believe is right until I feel that I'm just kicking the proverbial "dead horse".

Don't understand, you want people to discuss this subject, but when they do you don't want them to. Because you believe that you opinion is the only correct opinion. Probably the reason so few are supporting your program, as you say, is because they don't feel that there is any merit to it.

 

Seems to me that you have your mind made up that you are correct no matter what anyone says, even, I would guess, Celebrity (who you said wanted to talk with you, but never called you). If you think the Supreme Court is going to change things, then hold your ground or call your attorney. And some, who know the topic also, have told me that the contract is for your sailing, not for any "free" rewards program, so I just wonder who is correct. Don't you think that Celebrity did their research before making the changes.

 

All for some perks!!!!!!!

 

As I have said to Celebrity via email and phone, they did a great job with the new program and I thanked them for their generosity with the new tiers and the perks that go with them.

 

Since, you don't want comments on your program, we will just have to agree to strongly disagree on the program.

Edited December 17, 2013 by NLH Arizona

[Ma Bell]

I want people to rip my argument apart as well as they can so that I can refine it. To your first point: don't think that there was ever a vote concerning my "leg". Wouldn't matter anyhow unless the opinions were offered by experts in contract law. Second, the Supreme Court may soon rule on what companies may or may not do in terms of their Loyalty programs. It might just turn out that they are not as free to act as some believe. Perhaps the ruling will uphold their rights. Perhaps it will be too narrow to mean anything. Time will tell.Third, several who claim to know something about the topic tell me that "benefits" are indeed an implied part of the contract. Forth, I have 6 future cruises booked with Celebrity since I really enjoy the Celebrity experience. I might be obsessed by this topic, but I tend to fight for what I believe is right until I feel that I'm just kicking the proverbial "dead horse".

 

I understand that you are passionate about this but I think you need to look at the big picture. How many of the cruises you took were short ones that you received 30 points for? We're many of them originating in Florida where you never had to fly to get on board?

 

Part of the change was to make it a little more equitable for everyone and not quite as easy to make the higher levels. They came up with a formula and a time frame that is the same for everyone. I think we are about at the same level on the point scale and I don't have a problem with it at all. It is what it is. I do think that if I were in your position I would be grateful that I received credit for shorter and very convenient sailings instead of worrying about it.

 

JMHO

[Orator]

I understand that you are passionate about this but I think you need to look at the big picture. How many of the cruises you took were short ones that you received 30 points for? We're many of them originating in Florida where you never had to fly to get on board?

 

Part of the change was to make it a little more equitable for everyone and not quite as easy to make the higher levels. They came up with a formula and a time frame that is the same for everyone. I think we are about at the same level on the point scale and I don't have a problem with it at all. It is what it is. I do think that if I were in your position I would be grateful that I received credit for shorter and very convenient sailings instead of worrying about it.

 

JMHO

Hope all is well with you. We are probably quite close and it's always a pleasure to cruise with you. Yes, I do live in Florida for 6 months and that is most certainly convenient. I've calculated that my average cruise is 10.8 days and I usually stay in AQ or higher. My last two cruises were 13 days and 14 days. In a Sky Suite for one, AQ for the other. I take 2 TAs each year and fly one way for each. All of this however is irrelevant to my position. The Elite benefits are wonderful and I really appreciate them.

[jagoffee]

I want people to rip my argument apart as well as they can so that I can refine it. To your first point: don't think that there was ever a vote concerning my "leg". Wouldn't matter anyhow unless the opinions were offered by experts in contract law. Second, the Supreme Court may soon rule on what companies may or may not do in terms of their Loyalty programs. It might just turn out that they are not as free to act as some believe. Perhaps the ruling will uphold their rights. Perhaps it will be too narrow to mean anything. Time will tell.Third, several who claim to know something about the topic tell me that "benefits" are indeed an implied part of the contract. Forth, I have 6 future cruises booked with Celebrity since I really enjoy the Celebrity experience. I might be obsessed by this topic, but I tend to fight for what I believe is right until I feel that I'm just kicking the proverbial "dead horse".

 

I certainly understand your point and since you ask us to try and rip your argument I will try.

 

1. I am not sure that the current U.S. Supreme Court case will apply to cruise ships (since they are foreign flagged and other U.S. laws do not apply). Also since Celebrity did not really reduce any existing benefits it would not apply anyway.

 

2. Celebrity can change the actual benefits that you previously received, but they did not. Since Celebrity did not change the benefits you actually received and it has always been very clear that you do not earn CC points until after a cruise is completed. I think it is a weak argument that the earning of points in a program is part of an implied contract especially since the terms of the program clearly state it can be changed at any time. (based on my memory)

 

3. Either the cruisers who earn less points with the new system or the cruisers who earn more points with the new program are going to be disappointed. The cruisers who earn more points with the new program are happy with the way it was implemented. I cannot imagine that Celebrity would go back and change the implementation plan without upsetting the people who will earn more points.

 

4. IMO Celebrity was very generous awarding 30 new points for each old point. Celebrity could have grandfathered everyone's status and recalculated all the new points based on the cruise and then used the new points to obtain new levels. I suspect that most of us would have less points.

 

5. Celebrity could have cancelled the whole program and stopped the awarding of all points. Although it would be a PR nightmare I beleive it would be perfectly legal.

 

6. I suspect that most of us who were past final payment are receiving less points using the new system than if we received the old points and converted at the 30 point rate. The difference is that most of us accept the fact that the benefits of the actual program are generous. the benefits are appreciated, and the benefits are not the reason that we cruise on Celebrity.

 

It would seem that you are looking to be comfortable with your situation and most of us have been there from the day that the new program was addressed.

[robtulipe]

We were on a 15 night Century cruise in a concierge cabin when the change occurred. Our cruise started on Nov.21. We were told onboard by Jonette, the Capt's Club hostess, that all who were currently on a cruise when the change occurred would get the old cruise credits for that cruise and these would be converted to the new points using the 30 factor and that is what happened. We got 90 new points for the 3 cruise credits we got for that cruise. This was done immediately and were showing in our Capt's club account just after the change happened.

Edited December 17, 2013 by robtulipe

[excitedofharpenden]

I want people to rip my argument apart as well as they can so that I can refine it. To your first point: don't think that there was ever a vote concerning my "leg". Wouldn't matter anyhow unless the opinions were offered by experts in contract law. Second, the Supreme Court may soon rule on what companies may or may not do in terms of their Loyalty programs. It might just turn out that they are not as free to act as some believe. Perhaps the ruling will uphold their rights. Perhaps it will be too narrow to mean anything. Time will tell.Third, several who claim to know something about the topic tell me that "benefits" are indeed an implied part of the contract. Forth, I have 6 future cruises booked with Celebrity since I really enjoy the Celebrity experience. I might be obsessed by this topic, but I tend to fight for what I believe is right until I feel that I'm just kicking the proverbial "dead horse".

 

I am not going to post to this thread again because it's becoming focused on something that isn't what the OP was wanting to talk about, but will say Charles, I think the crux of this is that rather than being obsessed with this topic you've become obsessed with being a top flight cruiser via the 100 cruises club. You are upset at having that personal goal removed, or at least altered and the earning requirements extended. You posted this back in August and I think it explains my point. You saw the writing on the wall even then:

 

A change to "days", that I favor could possibly alter the cruises I take starting in January if a change is announced before then. Our goal was to reach the 100 point level and we projected that a cruise in March would do that. If Celebrity goes to days then points become meaningless to us. Would probably cancel shorter cruises and take fewer longer cruises. I know that many reading this will find my goal silly or worse, but it was something on our bucket list.

 

I think your situation is fairly unique and that's probably why it's fallen on deaf ears here. I hope you are able to get past it and continue to enjoy the experience of cruising. After all that is what it's all about.

 

Phil

[uktog]

As I recall in the days of the Roman Empire even the Orators were ignored from time to time when the message did not fit the consensus thought

Edited December 17, 2013 by uktog

[Orator]

I certainly understand your point and since you ask us to try and rip your argument I will try.

 

1. I am not sure that the current U.S. Supreme Court case will apply to cruise ships (since they are foreign flagged and other U.S. laws do not apply). Also since Celebrity did not really reduce any existing benefits it would not apply anyway.

 

2. Celebrity can change the actual benefits that you previously received, but they did not. Since Celebrity did not change the benefits you actually received and it has always been very clear that you do not earn CC points until after a cruise is completed. I think it is a weak argument that the earning of points in a program is part of an implied contract especially since the terms of the program clearly state it can be changed at any time. (based on my memory)

 

3. Either the cruisers who earn less points with the new system or the cruisers who earn more points with the new program are going to be disappointed. The cruisers who earn more points with the new program are happy with the way it was implemented. I cannot imagine that Celebrity would go back and change the implementation plan without upsetting the people who will earn more points.

 

4. IMO Celebrity was very generous awarding 30 new points for each old point. Celebrity could have grandfathered everyone's status and recalculated all the new points based on the cruise and then used the new points to obtain new levels. I suspect that most of us would have less points.

 

5. Celebrity could have cancelled the whole program and stopped the awarding of all points. Although it would be a PR nightmare I beleive it would be perfectly legal.

 

6. I suspect that most of us who were past final payment are receiving less points using the new system than if we received the old points and converted at the 30 point rate. The difference is that most of us accept the fact that the benefits of the actual program are generous. the benefits are appreciated, and the benefits are not the reason that we cruise on Celebrity.

 

It would seem that you are looking to be comfortable with your situation and most of us have been there from the day that the new program was addressed.

 

Finally a well thought out response to the issues I raised. No attack on personal motives, just a well reasoned response. You have given me some things to think about and I most appreciate it. That's what this should be about. Once again, thank you.

[C 2 C]

For years we have been waiting for an upgrade to the Elite Captain's Club program. Would some have been happier if they were given a new level but no increase in benefits?

The new Zenith perks are so much better than anyone expected that a small delay in getting there should not be considered a hardship.

 

We have been Zenith level for five years and received nothing more than any other Elite cruiser… other than a wonderful experience on board.

 

The new level is designed as a reward for truly obsessive cruising behaviour.

Celebrity is offering unparalleled rewards in the cruising industry but those rewards have to be earned according to the new rules.

 

Just imagine if exceptions had to be made to everyone who has ever cruised on a Celebrity ship, especially to those who only cruise insides. Everyone could say that they should have been grandfathered into the "old" way of counting, whether they had one cruise point or 99, until they reached Zenith or when we revisit this topic again and Zenith Plus is announced. :D

[NLH Arizona]

I am not going to post to this thread again because it's becoming focused on something that isn't what the OP was wanting to talk about, but will say Charles, I think the crux of this is that rather than being obsessed with this topic you've become obsessed with being a top flight cruiser via the 100 cruises club. You are upset at having that personal goal removed, or at least altered and the earning requirements extended. You posted this back in August and I think it explains my point. You saw the writing on the wall even then:

 

 

 

I think your situation is fairly unique and that's probably why it's fallen on deaf ears here. I hope you are able to get past it and continue to enjoy the experience of cruising. After all that is what it's all about.

 

Phil

Thank you, I now understand why all the fuss.

[NLH Arizona]

I certainly understand your point and since you ask us to try and rip your argument I will try.

 

1. I am not sure that the current U.S. Supreme Court case will apply to cruise ships (since they are foreign flagged and other U.S. laws do not apply). Also since Celebrity did not really reduce any existing benefits it would not apply anyway.

 

2. Celebrity can change the actual benefits that you previously received, but they did not. Since Celebrity did not change the benefits you actually received and it has always been very clear that you do not earn CC points until after a cruise is completed. I think it is a weak argument that the earning of points in a program is part of an implied contract especially since the terms of the program clearly state it can be changed at any time. (based on my memory)

 

3. Either the cruisers who earn less points with the new system or the cruisers who earn more points with the new program are going to be disappointed. The cruisers who earn more points with the new program are happy with the way it was implemented. I cannot imagine that Celebrity would go back and change the implementation plan without upsetting the people who will earn more points.

 

4. IMO Celebrity was very generous awarding 30 new points for each old point. Celebrity could have grandfathered everyone's status and recalculated all the new points based on the cruise and then used the new points to obtain new levels. I suspect that most of us would have less points.

 

5. Celebrity could have cancelled the whole program and stopped the awarding of all points. Although it would be a PR nightmare I beleive it would be perfectly legal.

 

6. I suspect that most of us who were past final payment are receiving less points using the new system than if we received the old points and converted at the 30 point rate. The difference is that most of us accept the fact that the benefits of the actual program are generous. the benefits are appreciated, and the benefits are not the reason that we cruise on Celebrity.

 

It would seem that you are looking to be comfortable with your situation and most of us have been there from the day that the new program was addressed.

Thank you for saying what we all have been saying, but in a well throught way, hopefully it will end all of this complaining.

Edited December 17, 2013 by NLH Arizona

[Jade13]

The major concern I express was over not counting cruises booked and completely paid for under the old system under the old point system. I believe that this constitues a violation of the passenger contract by denying the benefit in place when the cruise was paid in full. In essence, this constitutes, IMHO a reduction in benefits to those who booked and paid in full in good faith.

 

Orator, Did you pay in full for cruises that had not reached their final payment date (in anticipation of a change?), or do you mean cruises paid in full because they were within 90 days of departure and had reached their final payment date at the time of the change.

 

If Celebrity was to award points (used 30 point conversion rate) based on the old system for cruises paid in full than in theory some could have already paid in full for cruises departing in 2015.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Jade13

[Jade13]

We were on a 15 night Century cruise in a concierge cabin when the change occurred. Our cruise started on Nov.21. We were told onboard by Jonette, the Capt's Club hostess, that all who were currently on a cruise when the change occurred would get the old cruise credits for that cruise and these would be converted to the new points using the 30 factor and that is what happened. We got 90 new points for the 3 cruise credits we got for that cruise. This was done immediately and were showing in our Capt's club account just after the change happened.

 

Can you please tell me the start and end date of your Century cruise. Thanks!

Edited December 18, 2013 by Jade13

[Jade13]

Same happened with us on Equinox Ta !!

Very upsetting as we didn't get the new benefits but were given lesser new points!!

 

 

But someone else on your same cruise did.

[robtulipe]

Can you please tell me the start and end date of your Century cruise. Thanks!

Embarked Nov.21 ended Dec.6.

[gagirl7143]

But someone else on your same cruise did.

 

Are you saying some people on our cruise did not only get cards printed with Elite + but got the new benefits as well? If so you are really fueling my fire!!

[Orator]

Orator, Did you pay in full for cruises that had not reached their final payment date (in anticipation of a change?), or do you mean cruises paid in full because they were within 90 days of departure and had reached their final payment date at the time of the change.

 

If Celebrity was to award points (used 30 point conversion rate) based on the old system for cruises paid in full than in theory some could have already paid in full for cruises departing in 2015.

 

Jade:

First to answer your question: I was only talking about cruises that were fully paid. My fully paid cruises (now 5 remaining) will be completed by March 2nd.

I've taken lots of heat from some for my comments. I've been accused of being "obsessed", "selfish", in "psychological need of being a top cruiser" and more. I've attented to stick to reasons for my position and have not responded in kind o the personal attackes. The only element of truth in some of the attackes is that I did have making the top levela goal. I'm a goal oriented person and I believe that most people who are close to a new level in whatever they do would basically feel the same way.

But, here's the whole story:

I was on Silhouette when the change was announced and was very happy to see the new benefits. A group of passengers were discussing the new program and one made a comment about the conversion. I looked at my points under the old system and compared it to the new. I discovered that my conversion was based on 86 points. I was on a cruise that would have given me 88 points. Before the program change was announed had booked and paid in full for cruises that would have given me 98 points under the old system.Now I needed about 250 new points to reach the next level. The Captain's Club Hostess asked me how I was enjoying the new perks. Told her that loved the perks, but not the fact that the system was changed without notice and did not provide an opportunity for people to improve their status if they wished. Later she came back to me and told me that she worked the numbers and I ws correct. She told me that she contacted the Captain's Club and that they would be calling me. I never requested that they call me! I was also told that there were some adjustments for people going from Select to Elite, but no similar adjustments for other levels. This was confirmed to me by 2 passengers who told me that they did get a break and that the TA for them would be credited under the old system.

Met several attorneys at the Elite Hour and asked them about the conversion process. Several indicated that the lack of notice might be a contractual issue. Another said that companies frequently place a statement in their Loyalty contract that allows them to make a change without notice. All agreed that a transition period from old to new system would be a good idea. I have outlined my specific suggestion serveral times. The more I thought about it the more I becamecommitted to trying to implement a transition opportunity the would admittly help me, but help others as well. I really regret that I said anything on Cruise Critic since I've now lost respect for some I've always respected. I am rewally questioning whether I should stop posting entirlely. Just wanted to vent a bit. Just watch some of vemon that follows.

[Jade13]

Jade:

The more I thought about it the more I becamecommitted to trying to implement a transition opportunity the would admittly help me, but help others as well. I really regret that I said anything on Cruise Critic since I've now lost respect for some I've always respected. I am rewally questioning whether I should stop posting entirlely. Just wanted to vent a bit. Just watch some of vemon that follows.

 

I still respect you! We met on Millennium but unfortunately missed each other on the Dec 2012 Silhouette transatlantic (although I did ask people who knew you to tell you I was looking for you to say hello).

 

I am just interested in others opinions. Isn't that what Cruise Critic is about. I hope you don't stop posting.