Epic 45% list

[ChicagoGoodTimeGirls]

I was dining in Cagney's when the list occurred. It was 4 degrees max! The problem was corrected quickly and the Capt explained the issue within 5 mins of the occurrence. No idea why you would claim 45 degrees - 5 bouts of a 45 degree list would be catastrophic - shame on you for starting such a ridiculous rumor.

Edited December 9, 2013 by ChicagoGoodTimeGirls

[barnacle_boy]

NH Cruisers,

 

There are a number of newbuilds on the books right now that are being built with the traditional shaft and rudder design. They are still popular, especially amongst Carnival Corp. (AIDA, Carnival, Costa, Princess and P&O brands specifically speaking). They are supposedly easier on the pocketbooks, but greatly reduce the ship's maneuvering capabilities in high winds. In earlier days, shafts and rudders were preferable over pods in terms of reliability, but now it seems that pod technology has caught up. Incidentally, it's now the shaft and rudder ships that seem to be having more startup issues. Epic had problems in 2010 that affected her speed.

[Symbacat]

I was on that ship and do not know how many degrees was the list but on deck7shopping deck things were flying everywhere and the crew looked Scared. I was very upset when there was no announcement heard from the captain at least on that deck! Other officers would tell you nothing, the first explanation I heard was almost 12hours later, to me very Irrespnsable on part of captain.A crew member told me the next night that he was not informed what happened until the next morning. I heard complaints about quality of service, food etc but those are all individual opinions, but where was the captain informing passengers and crew about a rather scary event. Not my first time to cruise, and second time on epic, but not again.

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

[lij1972]

I was dinning in Cagney's when the list occurred. It was 4 degrees max! The problem was corrected quickly and the Capt explained the issue within 5 mins of the occurrence. No idea why you would claim 45 degrees 5 bouts of a 45 degree list would be catastrophic - shame on you for starting such a ridiculous rumor.

 

I was on this cruise as well. Unfortunatley the Captain's announcement was not broadcasted on the lower decks much to my dissapointment (I was on 10 and was waiting for it to come on). We only found out what happened talking to other passengers who were on that deck. Guest Services at the time claimed that it was rough seas but the seas were not rough. The next day the Captain did say it was 4 to 5 degree list (not 45) and that it was a glitch with the stablizers. Based on other experiences on other NCL ships I believe the amount of list was downplayed as not to worry the passengers.

[ColinIllinois]

If the captains' intent was to test the stabilizers, wouldn't he let the passengers know? I ask this question because it would have been a planned test, and would think he'd let the crew and pax know.

 

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Forums mobile app

 

 

No, because if they had worked correctly when deployed no one would even know about it other than the crew involved. No reason to announce anything to the passengers.

[soccersharon]

No, because if they had worked correctly when deployed no one would even know about it other than the crew involved. No reason to announce anything to the passengers.

 

I guess my point was if the stabilizers were being tested (which you mentioned in the post I originally answered) wouldn't this be shared with the crew and passengers in case the results were less than favourable?

 

I think there was a malfunction of some kind, which might explain the reactions of some crew members.

 

We will likely know what really caused the listing :)

 

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Forums mobile app

Edited December 9, 2013 by soccersharon

[3DBeach]

I was dining in Cagney's when the list occurred. It was 4 degrees max! The problem was corrected quickly and the Capt explained the issue within 5 mins of the occurrence. No idea why you would claim 45 degrees - 5 bouts of a 45 degree list would be catastrophic - shame on you for starting such a ridiculous rumor.

 

I'm pretty sure she wasn't trying to start a ridiculous rumor...when the captain spoke about it the next day it was (in my opinion) difficult to understand. When he said 4 to 5 degrees i also thought he said 45 degrees. I think it was an honest mistake that a lot of people are making.

One thing i didn't understand is that why wasn't his announcement played in the cabins? That's what bothered me the most about it...i only heard the announcement he made the next day. I personally think in a situation where you have something like that happen it should be played in all areas of the ship.

[Medtech2]

On our 2010 cruise the Captain ran manuevers at night that woke me up. We basically were doing donuts in the water. I was so sleepy and confident in the Captain's abilities I went back to sleep...

 

Malfunctions during testing happen. That's why you test. Then you test your fixes...

 

Sounds like they worked.

 

I'd sail the Epic again in a heartbeat. Still my favorite ship :)

[mandms40]

I'm pretty sure she wasn't trying to start a ridiculous rumor...when the captain spoke about it the next day it was (in my opinion) difficult to understand. When he said 4 to 5 degrees i also thought he said 45 degrees. I think it was an honest mistake that a lot of people are making.

One thing i didn't understand is that why wasn't his announcement played in the cabins? That's what bothered me the most about it...i only heard the announcement he made the next day. I personally think in a situation where you have something like that happen it should be played in all areas of the ship.

 

Thanks 3D, for the kind words, There was no announcement until breakfast the next day! You would of thought someone would of come on saying what the problem was, to settle everyone down, and yes, it did sound like he said it was 45 degree angle, and at the time, the ship had not been rocking till that point, pretty calm seas.

[NH Cruisers]

On our 2010 cruise the Captain ran manuevers at night that woke me up. We basically were doing donuts in the water. I was so sleepy and confident in the Captain's abilities I went back to sleep...

 

Malfunctions during testing happen. That's why you test. Then you test your fixes...

 

Sounds like they worked.

 

I'd sail the Epic again in a heartbeat. Still my favorite ship :)

 

The ship may have been doing a man overboard drill, it involves a tight turn called a Williamson turn. If executed well it will place the ship back to the position it was in when man overboard was announced. As a deck cadet in the mid-80's that was a routine drill.

 

Jon

[chengkp75]

Let me weigh in here;

 

I will start by saying that I was not onboard at the time, but I have extensive experience at sea, and with cruise ships.

 

The Norwegian Sky had an incident back in 2002-2003 where she listed to nearly 35*, and there was not a single piece of crockery or glassware left intact, and over 100 passengers had to be landed in Vancouver for medical treatment, probably 60+ broken bones. Ships can easily recover from a 45* roll, without damage to the ship (not so much the furnishings or passengers). I don't agree with NHCruisers that a 45* list would put the promenade deck at the water, as the Sky incident (while admitting it was only 35*) only put the deck 3 (crew areas) portholes under water, and the promenade deck was deck 5. Would it have thrown people overboard? That would depend on the frequency of the roll (the speed that the ship moves side to side), not the amplitudeof the roll.

 

I would surmise that the actual event was reported as 4-5 degrees, but was likely closer to 6-7 (they will always fudge a little in public announcements). Unless a ship really needs a lot of speed to make the next arrival, stabilizers will be deployed most nights. Even when the seas appear "calm" from deck 10 or so, there may be a very long swell that reacts with the ship's normal harmonic frequency to induce rolling, so the stabilizers are used to minimize passenger discomfort.

 

The ships also have stabilizing tanks where water is pushed from side to side to counteract wind induced heel (listing) or rolling, and this system may also have malfunctioned. Some one asked about ballasting, but cruise ships tend to be very static in regards to ballast. Ballast is used by cargo ships to reflect large changes in cargo, while on cruise ships the "cargo" (food and passengers) remain pretty constant.

 

As far as bringing a propeller (whether straight shaft or azipod) out of the water, maybe or maybe not, but most likely not. As for burning out the motor, that wouldn't have happened, as there are overspeed trips on the motors that will shut them down if they start to run too fast in air.

 

With regards to the Azipod vs. straight shaft design decision. The only thing that azipods really bring to the table as an advantage is less cost initially (you only need two azipods, instead of two motors/shafts/propellers, two rudders, and two thrusters, since the pods act like propellers/rudders/thrusters. There is some efficiency gained because of the propeller being ahead of the pod, but not a great deal. There is no advantage to pods in high winds, except while docking, since the full power of the propeller, not just the limited power of a thruster can be used to move the ship sideways. If you think that pod technology has caught up with straight shaft, look at the Allure, which is having thrust bearing problems with her pods, and requires an unscheduled drydocking. Pods are still, even the newer ones where the thrust bearings can be renewed in the water, not as reliable as the old straight shaft and propeller system.

 

Cruise ships with straight line propeller systems and rudders, tend to have "Becker" rudders which have a small trim tab on the end, for better maneuvering at low speeds when traditional rudders lose effectiveness. The flip side of the low speed efficiency is that at high speed, the ship will turn on a dime, which will create a heel (listing) that is significant. This was the cause of the Sky's incident; the rudder went hard over at full speed. Generally, at sea speeds, the helm only goes 2-4* to minimize the heel effect.

 

While man overboard drills are routinely required, and practiced quarterly onboard cargo ships, they are not normally done on cruise ships with passengers onboard (especially Williamson turns) due to the heeling, since the wheel is put hard over. These are normally done at times where there are no passengers onboard (trip to/from drydock), and waivers are granted for not doing them routinely. And they certainly would not be done at night without notifying the passengers and crew. Stabilizers can reduce roll, but even with 4 stabilizers out and deployed, the Sky heeled 35* with the rudder hard over like a Williamson turn. In an actual man overboard, they would slow the ship considerably before executing the turn, as the amount of heel is proportional to ship's speed.

 

While this was an unfortunate and uncomfortable incident, you will never know the real reason that it happened. For those who are "freaked" over this, and think it may be a design problem, it isn't. The ship has been designed for very bad weather, high seas, and severe damage without rolling over. Can there be a very uncomfortable ride? Sure. Can this happen to any ship? Sure. It's part of going to sea. If you don't want to risk being in bad weather, don't cruise, take a land vacation.

 

Machinery malfunctions all the time. Planes have problems, trains have problems, cars and busses have problems, so do ships. Ships though, have engineers onboard to fix the problems that happen, and there is sufficient redundancy that many equipment failures do not affect your cruise in any way.

[footballbabe3]

Chengkp 75 I feel better reading your post. It seems that you are the most educated on this situation. I love to cruise and don't want to just

take land vacations but was afraid there was a design flaw. I am going

on my cruise this Saturday rocking or rolling!! LOL

[chengkp75]

Chengkp 75 I feel better reading your post. It seems that you are the most educated on this situation. I love to cruise and don't want to just

take land vacations but was afraid there was a design flaw. I am going

on my cruise this Saturday rocking or rolling!! LOL

 

Go, have a ball.

 

I've been going to sea for 38 years now. I don't look forward to bad weather, but I take it as a challenging part of going to sea. Cruise ships are incredible machines, and are fascinating to me to operate.

 

While it may have been a stabilizer problem, it may have been something as simple as a deck officer forgetting to disengage the autopilot before making a heading change. Sometimes, if the rate of turn limiter is not on, this can cause the rudder to go hard over, and the ship will heel away from the turn. Then, the pendulum effect takes over, and the ship will roll back and forth until the energy is dissipated, getting less and less with each roll.

 

While your sea passages may or may not be optimal, depending on the weather, (and the line will try their best to optimize it), I can't think of any passenger ship in the last 100 years that has just rolled over (except the Poseiden!:p).

 

Heck, we operated the Norwegian Sky with only 3 out of 4 stabilizers for 2 years. It looked a little funny in the control room to only see that one "wing" was out, but it worked fine in moderate seas, and in heavy seas with the other set out as well.

[Sooner61]

Going on the Epic in January. Had not heard about these issues with this ship. Should I be worried? Do my will? Wear rubber soled shoes?

[Demonyte]

Going on the Epic in January. Had not heard about these issues with this ship. Should I be worried? Do my will? Wear rubber soled shoes?

 

There are no "issues with the ship". A will is always good to have stored somewhere, one never knows when our time comes.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Demonyte

[asubaru]

Let me weigh in here;

 

I will start by saying that I was not onboard at the time, but I have extensive experience at sea, and with cruise ships.

Machinery malfunctions all the time. Planes have problems, trains have problems, cars and busses have problems, so do ships. Ships though, have engineers onboard to fix the problems that happen, and there is sufficient redundancy that many equipment failures do not affect your cruise in any way.

 

I don't completely understand all your info/explanations, but it sure gives me a calm feeling.

I am sailing in a few weeks on her and feel confident I'll be safe; thank you!

[chengkp75]

I don't completely understand all your info/explanations, but it sure gives me a calm feeling.

I am sailing in a few weeks on her and feel confident I'll be safe; thank you!

 

Sorry, tend to ramble, and use the nautical/technical jargon too much. Bad habit from doing it so long. Just like when I was cruising with my wife, in-laws, and extended family on NCL, I kept getting the strongest desire to go through "crew only" doors because I knew the shorter ways to get around the ship!:p

[Doughnut Dolly]

We were on that cruise and after almost 40 cruises this was the first time I was really nervous. The explanation we were given the next day was that we hit a rough patch and the Epic deployed the stabilizers to limit the motion, but one stabilizer did not deploy and had to be deployed manually, this in turn caused the very, very, very noticeable side to side rolls. It was definitely a first for me and one I would rather not repeat. I will say the all the rest of the time, it was smooth as glass.

[barnacle_boy]

With regards to the Azipod vs. straight shaft design decision. The only thing that azipods really bring to the table as an advantage is less cost initially (you only need two azipods, instead of two motors/shafts/propellers, two rudders, and two thrusters, since the pods act like propellers/rudders/thrusters. There is some efficiency gained because of the propeller being ahead of the pod, but not a great deal. There is no advantage to pods in high winds, except while docking, since the full power of the propeller, not just the limited power of a thruster can be used to move the ship sideways. If you think that pod technology has caught up with straight shaft, look at the Allure, which is having thrust bearing problems with her pods, and requires an unscheduled drydocking. Pods are still, even the newer ones where the thrust bearings can be renewed in the water, not as reliable as the old straight shaft and propeller system.

 

I think it was pretty clear I was implying that pods allow for better maneuvering in higher winds in port. Pod tech has made leaps in bounds since being introduced in the past several decades. Regarding Allure, as you say, all technology has it's problems. Do you not recall the days when pods would have bearing problems nearly every other month? Allure is the first in quite sometime. It seems that just as many shaft and rudder ships experiencing propulsion issues, especially those sailing with Carnival.

[chengkp75]

I think it was pretty clear I was implying that pods allow for better maneuvering in higher winds in port. Pod tech has made leaps in bounds since being introduced in the past several decades. Regarding Allure, as you say, all technology has it's problems. Do you not recall the days when pods would have bearing problems nearly every other month? Allure is the first in quite sometime. It seems that just as many shaft and rudder ships experiencing propulsion issues, especially those sailing with Carnival.

 

Which Carnival ships with shafted propulsion have had propulsionproblems? I haven't heard of any.

[NH Cruisers]

Let me weigh in here;

 

I will start by saying that I was not onboard at the time, but I have extensive experience at sea, and with cruise ships.

 

The Norwegian Sky had an incident back in 2002-2003 where she listed to nearly 35*, and there was not a single piece of crockery or glassware left intact, and over 100 passengers had to be landed in Vancouver for medical treatment, probably 60+ broken bones. Ships can easily recover from a 45* roll, without damage to the ship (not so much the furnishings or passengers). I don't agree with NHCruisers that a 45* list would put the promenade deck at the water, as the Sky incident (while admitting it was only 35*) only put the deck 3 (crew areas) portholes under water, and the promenade deck was deck 5. Would it have thrown people overboard? That would depend on the frequency of the roll (the speed that the ship moves side to side), not the amplitudeof the roll.

 

I would surmise that the actual event was reported as 4-5 degrees, but was likely closer to 6-7 (they will always fudge a little in public announcements). Unless a ship really needs a lot of speed to make the next arrival, stabilizers will be deployed most nights. Even when the seas appear "calm" from deck 10 or so, there may be a very long swell that reacts with the ship's normal harmonic frequency to induce rolling, so the stabilizers are used to minimize passenger discomfort.

 

The ships also have stabilizing tanks where water is pushed from side to side to counteract wind induced heel (listing) or rolling, and this system may also have malfunctioned. Some one asked about ballasting, but cruise ships tend to be very static in regards to ballast. Ballast is used by cargo ships to reflect large changes in cargo, while on cruise ships the "cargo" (food and passengers) remain pretty constant.

 

As far as bringing a propeller (whether straight shaft or azipod) out of the water, maybe or maybe not, but most likely not. As for burning out the motor, that wouldn't have happened, as there are overspeed trips on the motors that will shut them down if they start to run too fast in air.

 

With regards to the Azipod vs. straight shaft design decision. The only thing that azipods really bring to the table as an advantage is less cost initially (you only need two azipods, instead of two motors/shafts/propellers, two rudders, and two thrusters, since the pods act like propellers/rudders/thrusters. There is some efficiency gained because of the propeller being ahead of the pod, but not a great deal. There is no advantage to pods in high winds, except while docking, since the full power of the propeller, not just the limited power of a thruster can be used to move the ship sideways. If you think that pod technology has caught up with straight shaft, look at the Allure, which is having thrust bearing problems with her pods, and requires an unscheduled drydocking. Pods are still, even the newer ones where the thrust bearings can be renewed in the water, not as reliable as the old straight shaft and propeller system.

 

Cruise ships with straight line propeller systems and rudders, tend to have "Becker" rudders which have a small trim tab on the end, for better maneuvering at low speeds when traditional rudders lose effectiveness. The flip side of the low speed efficiency is that at high speed, the ship will turn on a dime, which will create a heel (listing) that is significant. This was the cause of the Sky's incident; the rudder went hard over at full speed. Generally, at sea speeds, the helm only goes 2-4* to minimize the heel effect.

 

While man overboard drills are routinely required, and practiced quarterly onboard cargo ships, they are not normally done on cruise ships with passengers onboard (especially Williamson turns) due to the heeling, since the wheel is put hard over. These are normally done at times where there are no passengers onboard (trip to/from drydock), and waivers are granted for not doing them routinely. And they certainly would not be done at night without notifying the passengers and crew. Stabilizers can reduce roll, but even with 4 stabilizers out and deployed, the Sky heeled 35* with the rudder hard over like a Williamson turn. In an actual man overboard, they would slow the ship considerably before executing the turn, as the amount of heel is proportional to ship's speed.

 

While this was an unfortunate and uncomfortable incident, you will never know the real reason that it happened. For those who are "freaked" over this, and think it may be a design problem, it isn't. The ship has been designed for very bad weather, high seas, and severe damage without rolling over. Can there be a very uncomfortable ride? Sure. Can this happen to any ship? Sure. It's part of going to sea. If you don't want to risk being in bad weather, don't cruise, take a land vacation.

 

Machinery malfunctions all the time. Planes have problems, trains have problems, cars and busses have problems, so do ships. Ships though, have engineers onboard to fix the problems that happen, and there is sufficient redundancy that many equipment failures do not affect your cruise in any way.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/09/16/140528881/will-she-tip-over-norwegian-cruise-ship-listing-dangerously-after-fire

 

Here is a ship that is shown listing 17 degrees. I would say at 45 degrees, over twice the list of this ship, the life boats and promenade deck would get submerged on the EPIC.

 

This is only an example shown. I would have to say on this much smaller ship if 20 degree list is critical, a 45 degree list would be catastrophic. Especially on a giant (top heavy) ship like the EPIC.

 

Jon

Edited December 9, 2013 by NH Cruisers

[chengkp75]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/09/16/140528881/will-she-tip-over-norwegian-cruise-ship-listing-dangerously-after-fire

 

Here is a ship that is shown listing 17 degrees. I would say at 45 degrees, over twice the list of this ship, the life boats and promenade deck would get submerged on the EPIC.

 

This is only an example shown. I would have to say on this much smaller ship if 20 degree list is critical, a 45 degree list would be catastrophic. Especially on a giant (top heavy) ship like the EPIC.

 

Jon

 

IMO regulations require that the maximum righting arm must be reached at a heeling angle of 25* minimum, and preferably above 30*. They also specify that there must be at least a positive righting arm at 40*. This is for intact stability. Ships are required to not have any opening that would allow downflooding become immersed at less than a 30* heel, and I think the height of cruise ship's promenades is above this.

 

The ship you show is listing from flooding, and this is now damage stability, and the free-surface effect is what is bringing the ship over, and threatening to roll it over.

 

As for the promenade deck being in the water, it would be close, but I still don't think it would happen. Looking at the geometry, the ship is 132 feet wide, so the half breadth is 67 feet. I've found one statement that the promenade deck is 92.5 feet above the keel (can't confirm, just a quick search), and the nominal draft is 28.25 feet. Therefore, the promenade deck is 64.25 feet above the waterline. If the ship heels 45*, the water goes up the side of the ship a distance equal to half the breadth of the ship, so it would go up 67 feet. While this looks like the promenade would be under 2.75 feet of water (at the edge), I feel that the additional buoyancy that comes from submerging this side of the ship would lift it clear. I agree, it would be close, and there would be catastrophic damage to fittings and people, but I don't believe the ship would roll over, given the design stability it is required to have.

 

While ships like the Epic appear to be top heavy, this is not quite correct. While there is more volume above the water than below, the weight is concentrated below the waterline which creates the necessary righting arm when the ship rolls. The taller ships cause more wind heel from the surface area of the ship's side, but incredibly the center of gravity is near the waterline.

[kylenyc]

I sailed CCL Liberty in January 2012. In December 2011, there was a thread on the Carnival boards about the Liberty listing - pretty much like this thread. Anyway, my advise for you:

1. Insert a finger into each ear.

2. Open mouth and repeat this verbatim: "La, la, la I'm not listening!"

 

It worked like a charm for me as we had the smoothest seas all week.;)

Sigh... Well you did warn us :p

 

Right... Because a ship that has crossed the atlantic between Miami and the Mediterranean repeatedly for the past few years has a serious design flaw :confused:. Seriously? The reason why there is no sister to Epic is not safety concerns but rather the French labor issues that occurred during construction and my guess some of the interior design choices :D

[kylenyc]

IMO regulations require that the maximum righting arm must be reached at a heeling angle of 25* minimum, and preferably above 30*. They also specify that there must be at least a positive righting arm at 40*. This is for intact stability. Ships are required to not have any opening that would allow downflooding become immersed at less than a 30* heel, and I think the height of cruise ship's promenades is above this.

 

The ship you show is listing from flooding, and this is now damage stability, and the free-surface effect is what is bringing the ship over, and threatening to roll it over.

 

As for the promenade deck being in the water, it would be close, but I still don't think it would happen. Looking at the geometry, the ship is 132 feet wide, so the half breadth is 67 feet. I've found one statement that the promenade deck is 92.5 feet above the keel (can't confirm, just a quick search), and the nominal draft is 28.25 feet. Therefore, the promenade deck is 64.25 feet above the waterline. If the ship heels 45*, the water goes up the side of the ship a distance equal to half the breadth of the ship, so it would go up 67 feet. While this looks like the promenade would be under 2.75 feet of water (at the edge), I feel that the additional buoyancy that comes from submerging this side of the ship would lift it clear. I agree, it would be close, and there would be catastrophic damage to fittings and people, but I don't believe the ship would roll over, given the design stability it is required to have.

 

While ships like the Epic appear to be top heavy, this is not quite correct. While there is more volume above the water than below, the weight is concentrated below the waterline which creates the necessary righting arm when the ship rolls. The taller ships cause more wind heel from the surface area of the ship's side, but incredibly the center of gravity is near the waterline.

Thank you for always contributing your expertise.

[Love my butler]

Going on the Epic in January. Had not heard about these issues with this ship. Should I be worried? Do my will? Wear rubber soled shoes?

 

No, yes, yes. Also maybe pack a life jacket in your luggage.