Two Killed in Cruise Ship Berthing Accident on Independence of the Sea

[Agr8RN]

@ familygoboston - that looks much like the boat and actually it does look like the guy that the st kitts and Nevis observer posted. :( if it is - his family might like that picture - it's really nice.

 

Thank you for sharing the pictures.

 

asten77 - I'm sorry you had to see it. My friend saw it and is still pretty upset. She's a healthcare professional - but that doesn't make it any easier. I'm glad I did not witness it. Had we not had a late day excursion - we would have been on our balcony and would have seen it.

 

We were getting water and snacks in cafe promenade when the call came over.

:(

[WestCoastCruiser123]

I also witnessed this horrific accident and posted my eyewitness on another thread. This accident happened Wednesday. Apparently reps from Miami were brought onboard in Puerto Rico, including the woman in charge of the internal investigation. The morning show on Saturday asked anyone who would like to make a statement to come down to the conference center between 9-11am. We decided to go so that if no one else showed up, at least we could be on record that there were definite issues with Indy's safety procedures. The staff present to talk to the witnesses was very compassionate and responsive. We were offered access to talk with a care team member (not sure the proper title) for further "counseling" if needed. I'm not sure if this "care" person/people were brought on board special for this accident, or if they are always on board. I even received a follow up message in my room later that day addressing one of my concerns.

 

It was heartbreaking to pull away so quickly and then see three floating life preservers and an upside down boat.

 

Thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims, who were just working a job so that we could enjoy our cruise. I hope the families are taken care of.

[Agr8RN]

@ whitshell we did continue pulling out, stop and then deployed the life boat. The ship was stopped when it was deployed and it was what seemed like at least 10 minutes from the time of the incident that the boat was launched. I know these things take time; celebrity were the ones who really took forever and they were docked where we had to stop.

 

I actually checked my video time stamp and it says 504pm they began launching the boat. Sometimes it seems like forever in an emergency - I don't know if we left on time or early. Idk and couldn't / wouldn't try to attest to any exact times. I also know a lot of people also reported not hearing the horn blow as we left; I don't recall hearing it but couldn't swear to it.

Once all the videos surface in the next couple of days - then we will all have a better idea of how this all went so terribly wrong...

[Salacia]

why would you report this on a vacation website...last thing i would think passengers want to hear about

 

Because we care about safety at sea - not just about our fellow passengers but also about crew members and contract crew members. A "vacation" does not mean we absent ourselves from the rest of humanity.

 

But you're quite right, no one wants to hear about such things while on vacation - and no one wants to witness such events.

 

Nevertheless, the deaths of port workers Rudolph Dowell and Maxwell Browne are our concern, and expressions of sympathy to the loved ones of the deceased is well placed.

 

My suggestion is that I you don't want to hear about it, avoid the thread. -Salacia

[UNV-IT!!!]

Pulled under the surface and pulled "right under the the two ships" are completely different things.

 

And if you read the post from ATC cruiser this didn't even involve bow thrusters, the Celebrity ship was still tied up, and its engines were not running. That is all contrary to what you have stated. But thanks for the lesson in logic.

 

Now your just arguing over words. My point was they were pulled under and never surfaced. Which IS exactly what happened.

Your welcome for your lesson.

[grand isle joe]

But what good does firing him do? Nothing. The solution would be to identify the reasons it happened then make changes to address that. Firing a man who has co-mastered the ship since 2008 without a hitch seems awfully counter-productive to me.

 

......today there is no honor left in the world......the Captain should resign IMO before he could get fired.....with the charge comes the full responsibility or at least in the past.....

[Folk Singer]

So sad. Their families are in my prayers.

 

 

mine as well.

[chengkp75]

......today there is no honor left in the world......the Captain should resign IMO before he could get fired.....with the charge comes the full responsibility or at least in the past.....

 

Well, wasn't going to weigh in again on this, but here goes.

 

What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? Even though this happened in St. Kitts, I believe they have this concept as well. Until there is an investigation that concludes that there is reasonable doubt that negligence on the part of the ship caused this accident (and I wasn't there, didn't see it, and those that did were most likely not marine accident investigators), and more so, caused the deaths, there is no reason whatsoever for the Captain to resign. And don't give me "the Captain is ultimately responsible". I know all about this, as I can be held personally, criminally and financially responsible for everything that happens in my engine room, or to the ship when a mechanical problem occurs, regardless of whether I'm on duty, asleep in my cabin, or ashore in a bar. It comes with the license. Will this bother the Captain? Of course. Should he resign in remorse? Only if he were truly at fault, not judged by lay people who don't have all the facts.

[CRUISEFAN0001]

Keeping things simple...

 

This is a tragedy for those 2 who lost their lives doing their jobs. Condolences to their families.

 

No evidence of any negligence has been determined, and it appears this could simple be an accident. There's actually nothing to judge from the minimal facts to this point.

[Ocean Boy]

Now your just arguing over words. My point was they were pulled under and never surfaced. Which IS exactly what happened.

Your welcome for your lesson.

 

You are right. Words have no meaning. I guess from that perspective all of your other words were not wrong.

[rubrrick]

Well, wasn't going to weigh in again on this, but here goes.

 

What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? Even though this happened in St. Kitts, I believe they have this concept as well. Until there is an investigation that concludes that there is reasonable doubt that negligence on the part of the ship caused this accident (and I wasn't there, didn't see it, and those that did were most likely not marine accident investigators), and more so, caused the deaths, there is no reason whatsoever for the Captain to resign. And don't give me "the Captain is ultimately responsible". I know all about this, as I can be held personally, criminally and financially responsible for everything that happens in my engine room, or to the ship when a mechanical problem occurs, regardless of whether I'm on duty, asleep in my cabin, or ashore in a bar. It comes with the license. Will this bother the Captain? Of course. Should he resign in remorse? Only if he were truly at fault, not judged by lay people who don't have all the facts.

 

 

I can remember back to, I think, 2005, on the Monarch of the Seas, where 5 crew members lost their life while cleaning a waste system, that had gas, and injured even the doctors that were trying to help.

 

We were just disembarking when the fire engines and ambulances came onto the pier in San Pedro. Both the captain and chief engineer were ex orated, but there was a safety issue involved.

 

Regarding the IOS, you are right in your judgment about being innocent, until the investigation is over, whether it was an innocent act or why a bridge officer (captain or staff captain) started the azipods. Only time will tell........when the dust settles, and all of the facts are known, even, if we passengers never find out.

 

It's probably not our right to even know what goes on, as no passengers were injured.

 

Rick

[HLCwilltravel]

We spoke very briefly as they are still on board. In labadee today.

She said you could clearly see both ships had their bow thrusters on. Which is what was causing such rough wake and unexpected wake. Hence the accident.

 

I was on the Independence of the Seas when this tragic accident occurred. I did not see the actual capsizing of the boat, but Celebrity Solstice definitely did NOT have any thrusters on. There was a barge tied up on the port side of Solstice refueling it. There was a tug boat holding the barge in place that might have added to the "churning" of the water.

[chengkp75]

I can remember back to, I think, 2005, on the Monarch of the Seas, where 5 crew members lost their life while cleaning a waste system, that had gas, and injured even the doctors that were trying to help.

 

We were just disembarking when the fire engines and ambulances came onto the pier in San Pedro. Both the captain and chief engineer were ex orated, but there was a safety issue involved.

 

Regarding the IOS, you are right in your judgment about being innocent, until the investigation is over, whether it was an innocent act or why a bridge officer (captain or staff captain) started the azipods. Only time will tell........when the dust settles, and all of the facts are known, even, if we passengers never find out.

 

It's probably not our right to even know what goes on, as no passengers were injured.

 

Rick

 

I remember the Monarch case. The sewage pipe they opened had hydrogen sulfide gas in it, a normal component of biodegradation. The first indication you have of H2S is the "rotten egg" smell, but in high concentrations, the first thing H2S neutralizes is your sense of smell. Safety bulletins about this were circulated through every fleet and every shipping company at the time.

[seb]

Wasn't going to weigh in on this but after reading posts here's my input. I was on IOS and had a starboard balcony and did witness portions of this incident. I'm a retired law enforcement executive manager who had under his command a Harbor Patrol. I am very familiar with what would happen in the US if this incident occurred in my jurisdiction ( but it didn't ) and what DID or should I say Didn't happen still bothers me.

 

I will not comment on how and who is responsible because I learned a long time ago not to speculate and only come to a conclusion after all facts in an investigation are known. And this is what bothers me.

 

In a death investigation, no stone should be left unturned and in my opinion there is something wrong here. There is NO way this ship should have left St Kitts 4 hrs. after this incident. There should have been investigators on board the ship in St. Kitt to interview and take statements from ALL witnesses and crew. This was never done. There should have been blood tests of ALL officers on the bridge , collection of videos and photos taken by passengers - this never done.

 

Simply put, this ship shouldn't have left St. Kitt until a complete a extensive investigation was completed. When we were pulling away, one person next to me commented that RCI must have already paid $$ to the family's already for us to be leaving the scene of an incident that caused 2 deaths only 4 hrs. after it occurred. I hope this isn't the case.

 

Like I said, I won't speculate or comment on who's at fault but I can tell you an incident like this would take at least 24 hrs to gather all interviews and evidence necessary. 4-5 hrs is just WRONG.

[LuckiStac13*Majesty*]

Stacy, your thoughts of hearing the captains point of view will NEVER happen.

 

There are so many eye witnesses to this tragic event, but outside of some statement by a p.r. person at Royal Caribbean, nothing else will be said, IMHO.

 

How corporate deals with the officers on the IOS, will also be hushed. If the captains name dissapears from the current captain thread, we will know how corporate decided to deal with it. Only time will tell.

 

Meanwhile my prayers go out to all involved, and the familys of the two deceased.

 

Rick

 

Hi Rick,

 

I realize that...just sort of "wishful thinking" on my part. 2 sides to every story, so I'd just like to know why it was handled that way. Feel really bad for the men who passed away and their families.

[LuckiStac13*Majesty*]

Turning off the azipods (as I understand it, it was the azipods that caused the wake, not the thrusters) would mean that the ship would lose all maneuverability. This could have led to Independence crashing into the pier, another ship, or the concrete pilings located on the opposite side of the pier from the ship. Depending on the contours of the ocean floor and the currents and the wind, the ship could've even run aground. I'm sure the captain turned off the propellers as soon as he could safely do so.

 

Thanks for the info.

[chengkp75]

Wasn't going to weigh in on this but after reading posts here's my input. I was on IOS and had a starboard balcony and did witness portions of this incident. I'm a retired law enforcement executive manager who had under his command a Harbor Patrol. I am very familiar with what would happen in the US if this incident occurred in my jurisdiction ( but it didn't ) and what DID or should I say Didn't happen still bothers me.

 

I will not comment on how and who is responsible because I learned a long time ago not to speculate and only come to a conclusion after all facts in an investigation are known. And this is what bothers me.

 

In a death investigation, no stone should be left unturned and in my opinion there is something wrong here. There is NO way this ship should have left St Kitts 4 hrs. after this incident. There should have been investigators on board the ship in St. Kitt to interview and take statements from ALL witnesses and crew. This was never done. There should have been blood tests of ALL officers on the bridge , collection of videos and photos taken by passengers - this never done.

 

Simply put, this ship shouldn't have left St. Kitt until a complete a extensive investigation was completed. When we were pulling away, one person next to me commented that RCI must have already paid $$ to the family's already for us to be leaving the scene of an incident that caused 2 deaths only 4 hrs. after it occurred. I hope this isn't the case.

 

Like I said, I won't speculate or comment on who's at fault but I can tell you an incident like this would take at least 24 hrs to gather all interviews and evidence necessary. 4-5 hrs is just WRONG.

 

As you state, this happened in a jurisdiction that very well may have lesser requirements for investigation and prosecution than the US. Also the ship being Bahamian or Panamanian flag inserts its own set of rules. These are the facts of "flags of convenience".

 

I will add some details that I know happened, as they are required of all ships, of all nations, at any time there is an accident. Blood alcohol testing (breathalyzer) and drug testing (urine sample) were taken within 2 hours of the incident for everyone on the bridge (officers and crew), everyone on the stern mooring station (officers and crew), and everyone in the Engine Control Room. This equipment is onboard, and the medical staff is trained in the chain of custody for samples, as random testing of all crew is a requirement of the IMO.

 

The bridge, the ECR, and the aft mooring station have surveillance cameras that are recording 24/7. The bridge and ECR have voice recorders, recording 24/7 that are not accessible to the crew. The bridge and ECR have data recorders that show position, speed, pod speed command and direction, etc, which are recording 24/7, which are not accessible to the crew.

 

All of this data is available to the Kittsian and Bahamian authorities. The Bahamian Maritime Authority can investigate the incident to see if RCI is liable under their laws, and whether the Captain should lose his license for this. Should more interviews of eye witnesses taken place? Again, that's up to the Kittsian authorities.

 

The incident is a sad one, possibly avoidable, unable to determine fault at this time, but we should not project US legal systems into other countries, we should respect those countries' processes.

Edited April 7, 2014 by chengkp75

[seb]

Agree completely with regard to respecting jurisdictions BUT ALL evidence and statements from ALL witnesses should have been taken that evening, not just from RCI and their personnel.. That is universal law enforcement and that wasn't done. Collecting evidence and statements from only the cruise line and it's staff is NOT a complete and accurate picture and unfortunately it can never be done now.

[setsail]

CNN without tv:rolleyes:

[whitshel]

I did notice that the next 2 stops, San Juan and Labadee both had ramps out to their satellite mooring cleats. My guess is these will be installed pretty quick in St Kitts. I wonder if this accident will affect next weeks sailing into St Kitts?

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Forums mobile app

[BillB48]

Does anyone know if there was a pilot on board at the time of the incident?

[chengkp75]

Agree completely with regard to respecting jurisdictions BUT ALL evidence and statements from ALL witnesses should have been taken that evening, not just from RCI and their personnel.. That is universal law enforcement and that wasn't done. Collecting evidence and statements from only the cruise line and it's staff is NOT a complete and accurate picture and unfortunately it can never be done now.

 

I never said it was complete and accurate. I said that it met the Kittsian legal requirements or the ship would not have been cleared to sail. I was merely stating that there is some important, impartial evidence that was collected, i.e. the video and the voice and data recordings.

[chengkp75]

Does anyone know if there was a pilot on board at the time of the incident?

 

Whether or not there was a pilot onboard is irrelevant. The pilot's role is as an advisor to the Captain on local conditions. There are a very few places on earth where a Captain relinquishes control of his vessel let alone his responsibility. Those areas are: the Panama Canal, the Soo locks on the Great Lakes (thanks Tonka's Skipper for that one), and when entering a drydock. At all other times, the Captain retains control of the ship, but may relinquish the giving of orders to either a pilot or a deck officer. He always has the right to countermand a pilot, to relieve the pilot of the conn, or to advise the pilot of some circumstance the Captain feels the pilot isn't aware of.

[chengkp75]

I did notice that the next 2 stops, San Juan and Labadee both had ramps out to their satellite mooring cleats. My guess is these will be installed pretty quick in St Kitts. I wonder if this accident will affect next weeks sailing into St Kitts?

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Forums mobile app

 

Wouldn't hold my breath on that. Stand alone dolphins are used everywhere in the world, including the most regulated and litigious country on earth, the US. It may happen, but sadly, loss of life in countries other than the US is not held in such high regard.

[setsail]

Does anyone know if there was a pilot on board at the time of the incident?

 

Yes, there has to be

 

"SCAPCA’s procedure dictates that there is a scheduled time for a ship to leave port. Once that arrives, a pilot goes on board and takes the ship out of the harbour and hands over to the captain. The linesmen assist in the process by releasing the lines from the mooring points.

"