What is happening to Grand Voyages?

[bksunbuddies]

Why is HAL changing and/or eliminating many of their longer "Grand Voyages"?

 

The Grand Med use to be round trip from Fort Lauderdale and now does not return to Ft. Lauderdale.

 

The September Grand is ending in 2014. This is being substituted with a long cruise (approx. 55 days) in 2015 BUT it is not considered a "Grand".

 

The South America Grand is still available but prices are rising on the "elegant", but very old, Prinsendam.

 

And what happened to the voting for one of four options for the '16 World Cruise?? The itinerary chosen is very different from the four choices upon which we voted!

 

Does anyone else fell disappointed by the choices HAL is making?

[arzz]

Yes. Cruising a "Grand" is a special experience that we will miss - especially with recent cutbacks and changes.

 

What occurs to me is -- once the smaller ships are gone -- what will happen to all of the extended itineraries -- not just the "Grand" ones? What ships will do trips like the Voyage of the Vikings and the 30 day South Seas cruises? Even these non-Grand trips that round trip US ports and are of extended length are unique to HAL and a big piece of what makes this cruise line special.

 

But ... Are they really going to fill a signature or pinnacle class vessel for these special itineraries, or will HAL end up joining the flocks of carbon copy short itinerary cruise lines and just go for the banal and bland to fill their pockets?

[Aruba]

But ... Are they really going to fill a signature or pinnacle class vessel for these special itineraries, or will HAL end up joining the flocks of carbon copy short itinerary cruise lines and just go for the banal and bland to fill their pockets?

CCL shareholders would prefer the later but personally I would prefer if HAL (and other cruise lines) continued to offer both types of itineraries.

[sail7seas]

It is always a matter of following the $$.

All cruise line decisions rest upon that.

[fsdj1097]

It is always a matter of following the $$.

All cruise line decisions rest upon that.

 

Does anyone have any numbers, or even an educated guess, indicating whether or nor HAL actually makes money from the Grand Voyages?

 

Following Captain Mercer's blog during the just completed GWV on the Amsterdam, he listed the amount of what just the fuel costs were.

 

With the problem reported by some of the GWV passengers regarding the internet, I'm sure there were concessions made by HAL, thus some of that income was negated.

[sail7seas]

Does anyone have any numbers, or even an educated guess, indicating whether or nor HAL actually makes money from the Grand Voyages?

 

Following Captain Mercer's blog during the just completed GWV on the Amsterdam, he listed the amount of what just the fuel costs were.

 

With the problem reported by some of the GWV passengers regarding the internet, I'm sure there were concessions made by HAL, thus some of that income was negated.

 

 

I wouldn't imagine that is public information.

Any guesses here likely would be just that.

It is highly unlikely any 'insider' who actually knows would be posting such information on a public message board. :D

 

But it is an interesting question and fun for speculation.

 

Edited May 1, 2014 by sail7seas

[Tampa Girl]

Why is HAL changing and/or eliminating many of their longer "Grand Voyages"?

 

The Grand Med use to be round trip from Fort Lauderdale and now does not return to Ft. Lauderdale.

 

The September Grand is ending in 2014. This is being substituted with a long cruise (approx. 55 days) in 2015 BUT it is not considered a "Grand".

 

The South America Grand is still available but prices are rising on the "elegant", but very old, Prinsendam.

 

And what happened to the voting for one of four options for the '16 World Cruise?? The itinerary chosen is very different from the four choices upon which we voted!

 

Does anyone else fell disappointed by the choices HAL is making?

 

How do you know the September Grand has been deleted? I don't see any Pacific/Asia voyages after April, 2015. Is it not possible that the September 2015 Asia Grand voyages have not yet been published?

[Watson's aunt]

Hi

 

I read the 2014 sept was cancelled Grand pacific & far East

 

Someone post it here they were booked on it

 

 

Mary

[Tampa Girl]

Hi

 

I read the 2014 sept was cancelled Grand pacific & far East

 

Someone post it here they were booked on it

 

 

Mary

 

Not according to their website. They are still selling cabins. Why would HAL cancel a 77-day cruise??? What would they do with the ship in the meantime?

[Storylady]

Hi

 

I read the 2014 sept was cancelled Grand pacific & far East

 

Someone post it here they were booked on it

 

 

Mary

I believe it was the 2015 Grand Asia that was cancelled. The schedule for the Amsterdam in 2015 isn't out yet. And if Karen knows what the World Cruise is in 2016, she found out from her travel agent. The agency that we both use is close to HAL Headquarters and their agents have been given advance notification of future itineraries. That is how I found out that the Amsterdam is doing a 50 day Hawaii/Tahiti/Polynesian Cruise.

 

Karen, I believe the reason the Prinsendam's Grand Voyage ends in Europe is due to the expense of bringing it back and and then doing the TA again. Many people don't like those sea days. Consequently, they have to discount the May TA.

 

I was just on the Prinsendam and it looks better now than it did when we were on it 2011. They just replaced all the Veranda furniture. They have enclosed the back deck and turned it into the Canaletto Restaurant. We loved eating their at breakfast and lunch when anybody could sit there.

 

And I believe they have plans to replace and update all the furniture on decks 7 & 8. When talking to the Chief Engineer, he told me that the bottom half of the Prinsendam that you don't see has been totally replace. The plumbing is brand new as of 2007. Naturally, there are still plumbing problems, but 99% of them are caused by people including staff putting inappropriate items down the toilet.

 

So yes, the Prinsendam is old, but she still is a fabulous ship to sail on. And she sails better than most of the newer ships due to her lovely rear end according to the Chief Engineer and Captain Andre. He especially made note of this when we were in Aruba and passing by one of the Celebrity ships with its box like aft.

[Tampa Girl]

I am really crushed if HAL has, in fact, cancelled the 2015 Grand Asia cruise. Sharon, did this info come through your TA or directly from HAL?

[FRANKIEDNYC]

:( Linda and I were on the last Grand South America/Antarctic cruise and while on board booked the 2015 Grand Far East cruise. About 2 weeks later we received a letter from them saying that the cruise is being discontinued as of the 2015 voyage. As far as the smaller ships are concerned we had the opportunity of sitting at the Captains table and he told us that the Prinsendam was guaranteed to be around for 4 more years. He said the S class ships are all for sale but would continue to sail any advertised itineraries. They would be sold but leased back to fulfill their commitments.

[Storylady]

I am really crushed if HAL has, in fact, cancelled the 2015 Grand Asia cruise. Sharon, did this info come through your TA or directly from HAL?

 

From my travel agent. I was interested in doing the Grand Asia Cruise as we haven't been to that part of the world. She told me that they had just had a briefing on future cruises with Seattle and that the Amsterdam would be doing a 50 day cruise to Hawaii, Tahiti, Samoa, Tonga and the Cook Islands. I didn't ask what the Amsterdam would be doing after the 50 days. I imagine that HAL could still change their minds. But since money that was put on the 2015 cruise was returned, I suspect what she told me is true we will just have to wait until they release the rest of the year.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Storylady
Spelling

[bksunbuddies]

The 2014 Grand Asia in September is still a go. It is 77 days.

 

However the Grand Asia in '15 has been replaced with the Amsterdam doing the Hawaii and South Seas in approximately 50-55 days...but this is not a Grand.

 

The World in 2016 includes, but is not limited to, the following:

the Panama Canal transit

(no Easter Island)

Papeete but not Bora Bora

Rarotonga

New Zealand ports- Bay of Islands, Auckland and Wellington

Australia- Melbourne, Sydney, Hamilton Island' Cairnes, Sherrad Island, Darwin

Indonesia- Bali and one more port

Vietnam- Na Trang, DaNang, Phu My

Hong Kong

Cambodia

Singapore

Phuket, Thailand

Sri Lanka

India-Mangalore and Mormugoa(Goa)

Dubai

Oman-Muscat and Salalah

Safaga, Egypt

Israel- Haifa(Nazareth) and Ashdod(Jerusalem)

Greece-Piraeus(Athens) and Katakolon(Olympia)

Civitavecchia(Rome), Italy

Spain- Barcelona and Cadiz

Funchal, Madeira

 

The itinerary seems like a combination of options B and C, which were two of the four possible choices. Nothing is written in stone and I am sure there will be some changes. This is still a very interesting voyage and we may consider part of it after it is officially published.

 

:)

[catl331]

they need full occupancy to make money. Many people just do one section of the cruise. We joined Grand Med Prinsendam in Barcelona for the last part of the long cruise. Less than 500 people went across the Atlantic 16 days to Ft. Laud via Bermuda. We got many of the gifts the full voyage passengers got. I think they just were left over.

[rkacruiser]

they need full occupancy to make money. Many people just do one section of the cruise. We joined Grand Med Prinsendam in Barcelona for the last part of the long cruise. Less than 500 people went across the Atlantic 16 days to Ft. Laud via Bermuda. We got many of the gifts the full voyage passengers got. I think they just were left over.

 

I may be in a very large minority, but I find all of the Grand Voyage gifts that are provided to the guests to be really not needed. But, some are most certainly welcome. Such as, an additional piece of luggage to send home all of the "stuff" one has acquired. I have a plush kangaroo with a baby in its pouch from my 2002 Volendam Asia Pacific cruise that I treasure. But, lots of the "stuff" I received from the 2008 World Cruise is sitting in a storage box and is looked at rarely. (I know: I probably ought to try to sell this "stuff" on eBay.)

 

If passenger counts are down for such cruises, then reduce the "stuff" and then reduce the price per day for the cruise. When I look at what I paid in 2008 with the price today, there a been a significant increase.

 

The desire for a Grand Voyage is still there among HAL's demographic. But, the cost is getting out of hand.

 

Just my opinion.

[catl331]

But, lots of the "stuff" I received from the 2008 World Cruise is sitting in a storage box and is looked at rarely. (I know: I probably ought to try to sell this "stuff" on eBay.)

Most of ours went to my Woman's Club rummage sale. :)

[Davitur]

Does anyone have any numbers, or even an educated guess, indicating whether or nor HAL actually makes money from the Grand Voyages?

 

Following Captain Mercer's blog during the just completed GWV on the Amsterdam, he listed the amount of what just the fuel costs were.

 

With the problem reported by some of the GWV passengers regarding the internet, I'm sure there were concessions made by HAL, thus some of that income was negated.

 

So, after looking at 2015 World Cruise (114 day) prices and counting up all of the different rooms on the Amsterdam, here is some *very* fuzzy math:

 

* Double Occupancy, all rooms filled, full 2015 114-day rate:

$47.0m gross revenue total ($412k / day)

 

* Cruise market watch claims fuel is $220/pax/7-day cruise (2014). Extrapolating:

$4.9m total fuel costs ($43k / day)

 

* But lets ignore that, that same site says the total expenses (including fuel) for the "average" 7-day cruise is $1,535 per passenger. Extrapolating:

$34.5m estimated expenses ($302k / day)

 

* Estimated Profit of World Cruise

$12.5m estimated profit (26.6% margin) - $109k per day.

 

This of course ignores everyones bar tabs, etc...

[chengkp75]

So, after looking at 2015 World Cruise (114 day) prices and counting up all of the different rooms on the Amsterdam, here is some *very* fuzzy math:

 

* Double Occupancy, all rooms filled, full 2015 114-day rate:

$47.0m gross revenue total ($412k / day)

 

* Cruise market watch claims fuel is $220/pax/7-day cruise (2014). Extrapolating:

$4.9m total fuel costs ($43k / day)

 

* But lets ignore that, that same site says the total expenses (including fuel) for the "average" 7-day cruise is $1,535 per passenger. Extrapolating:

$34.5m estimated expenses ($302k / day)

 

* Estimated Profit of World Cruise

$12.5m estimated profit (26.6% margin) - $109k per day.

 

This of course ignores everyones bar tabs, etc...

 

A better look at fuel costs: Wikipedia (I know) claims Amsterdam burns 140mt of fuel per day at 21 knots. A little research on my part, and this number holds up pretty well (perhaps a little conservative, but I'll give HAL this one). Today's bunker fuel price is $580/mt (average), so for every sea day, the ship will burn $82,000 in fuel, or nearly double the cruise watch figure. Theirs is an average, including port days, but a sea day intensive voyage like this would be closer to my figures, so there goes $30-35k of your profit. And fuel prices will only continue to rise.

 

Also realize that a voyage of this type requires storing at various places around the world, so the ship cannot take advantage of the bulk discounts most ships get from vendors because they are placing huge orders every week. And in some locations the Amsterdam would be taking huge amounts of supplies from the local economy, so a premium price would be paid for food.

 

Most cruises cover the overhead with cabin prices. Profit generally comes from onboard revenue only. I assume that HAL would adjust the price on select cruises like these Grands to ensure a better profit, but I don't believe they would be making more than 10% (at the very best) before onboard revenue.

[Tampa Girl]

:( Linda and I were on the last Grand South America/Antarctic cruise and while on board booked the 2015 Grand Far East cruise. About 2 weeks later we received a letter from them saying that the cruise is being discontinued as of the 2015 voyage. As far as the smaller ships are concerned we had the opportunity of sitting at the Captains table and he told us that the Prinsendam was guaranteed to be around for 4 more years. He said the S class ships are all for sale but would continue to sail any advertised itineraries. They would be sold but leased back to fulfill their commitments.

 

 

I'm so disappointed. I really wanted to do that cruise. But, thanks, anyway, for your response. I am even more disappointed that all S class ships are for sale. That probably means that HAL may not be able to sail out of Tampa? Another bummer. As someone once said "all changes are not improvements."

[Tampa Girl]

From my travel agent. I was interested in doing the Grand Asia Cruise as we haven't been to that part of the world. She told me that they had just had a briefing on future cruises with Seattle and that the Amsterdam would be doing a 50 day cruise to Hawaii, Tahiti, Samoa, Tonga and the Cook Islands. I didn't ask what the Amsterdam would be doing after the 50 days. I imagine that HAL could still change their minds. But since money that was put on the 2015 cruise was returned, I suspect what she told me is true we will just have to wait until they release the rest of the year.

 

 

Did your TA have any info on which ship would be doing the Far East route, i.e. China, Singapore, Thailand, etc.?

[catl331]

That probably means that HAL may not be able to sail out of Tampa?

Why not? Carnival and NCL sail Vista-sized ships out of Tampa, and the RCI Brilliance is Signature-sized.

[Tampa Girl]

Why not? Carnival and NCL sail Vista-sized ships out of Tampa, and the RCI Brilliance is Signature-sized.

 

 

It has been explained to me that the HAL stacks are somewhat higher. Don't know if that is true. But one would think that if the Vista ships can come in under the Sunshine Skyway, they would have already come in. Anyway, we can hope. Certainly the S class ships go out of Tampa full.

[Storylady]

Did your TA have any info on which ship would be doing the Far East route, i.e. China, Singapore, Thailand, etc.?

 

No, she didn't as I didn't' task. But I suspect it is the Volendam and the Rotterdam. The Volendam and the Noordam are the ships going to the South Pacific in 2015. The Noordam will probably do the New Zealand and Australia cruises. And the Volendam will leave for Asia. And the Rotterdam will sail for Asia in January after doing the Canaries.

[Davitur]

A better look at fuel costs: Wikipedia (I know) claims Amsterdam burns 140mt of fuel per day at 21 knots. A little research on my part, and this number holds up pretty well (perhaps a little conservative, but I'll give HAL this one). Today's bunker fuel price is $580/mt (average), so for every sea day, the ship will burn $82,000 in fuel, or nearly double the cruise watch figure. Theirs is an average, including port days, but a sea day intensive voyage like this would be closer to my figures, so there goes $30-35k of your profit. And fuel prices will only continue to rise.

 

Also realize that a voyage of this type requires storing at various places around the world, so the ship cannot take advantage of the bulk discounts most ships get from vendors because they are placing huge orders every week. And in some locations the Amsterdam would be taking huge amounts of supplies from the local economy, so a premium price would be paid for food.

 

Most cruises cover the overhead with cabin prices. Profit generally comes from onboard revenue only. I assume that HAL would adjust the price on select cruises like these Grands to ensure a better profit, but I don't believe they would be making more than 10% (at the very best) before onboard revenue.

 

You bring up some good points. I hadn't thought about the non-standard supply costs created by the World Cruise. I'm not emotionally tied to any of the numbers. Just trying to do the math to see financially what a World Cruise might mean in revenue & profit.

 

An interesting thing to note while running the numbers is that if they are unable to fill the ship, that profit drops pretty rapidly as a lot of the costs are fixed. For example, lets say they sold all the rooms *except* the "A" and the "SA" groups, and ran those empty (or upgraded others and left the lower areas empty). That would cost them $12m in revenue and make the cruise unprofitable.

 

If they do end up canceling a World Cruise it would be because they couldn't get the price they needed, couldn't fill the ship, or both. Ah, the economics of a "for profit" business...