"Helipad" Eclipse versus Reflection

[cle-guy]

So I've noticed that Eclipse has a Helipad, but Reflection says "Winch Only".

 

How much different is the build of the ships that makes one accept a helicopter, but the other not?

 

I seem to recall a thread someplace where they said it was due to structural differences, wondered if any had any specifics.

 

• Reflection is 1047 feet long and 123 feet wide (I assume that's what 'Beam' Means) with 27 foot draught
  
• Eclipse is 1041 feet long and 121 feet wide with 27 foot draught as well
  

[cruisestitch]

I believe that Eclipse is also winch only, despite the name. I have witnessed three helicopter evacuations from Eclipse, and in each one, the copter hovered over that area and did not land.

 

The crew lowers the flagpole into a hatch, and with a room over looking that area, I was able to witness the entire evacuation process. The most dramatic was one night off the coast of San Juan, Puerto Rico.

[nps001]

All of the S class ships have helipads with the exception of Reflection. When I did the bridge tour I asked why. I was told it was for weight savings. I didn't pry any further.

 

Im sure the weight savings are considerable as I was also told that the helipad needs considerable reinforcement. However, there must be another reason that the helipad was scrapped on Reflection aside from costs?

[cle-guy]

As an Eclipse aficionado, maybe you can answer this one...

 

Another thing I noticed when arriving into the Southampton area, was a temporary radar antenna (the thing that spins around in circles, seems to appear up on the helipad one afternoon, similar to those up high on the funnels I saw it on the bow camera on the TV, the next day it was gone, and as I had been to a helipad sail away earlier in the cruise, know it wash't there then either, or else people would have been running into it. Any idea what THAT was?

[cle-guy]

All of the S class ships have helipads with the exception of Reflection. When I did the bridge tour I asked why. I was told it was for weight savings. I didn't pry any further.

 

Im sure the weight savings are considerable as I was also told that the helipad needs considerable reinforcement. However, there must be another reason that the helipad was scrapped on Reflection aside from costs?

 

What Cruisestitch posted makes sense, every time I hear reference to a med-evac, I hear the absolute last option is a helicopter as it's very dangerous to land. Perhaps they've determined that it never gets used and they only winch these days as it's far safer and more stable to do that, so no need to continue reinforcing the helipad?

[dkjretired]

What Cruisestitch posted makes sense, every time I hear reference to a med-evac, I hear the absolute last option is a helicopter as it's very dangerous to land. Perhaps they've determined that it never gets used and they only winch these days as it's far safer and more stable to do that, so no need to continue reinforcing the helipad?

 

Sometimes the helicopters dispatched are too big to land.

[boogs]

All of the S class ships have helipads with the exception of Reflection.

 

Uh, not quite. Here is a photo of Silhouette that clearly shows Winch Only in place of the big "H" as on the first three S-class ships.

 

 

Im sure the weight savings are considerable as I was also told that the helipad needs considerable reinforcement. However, there must be another reason that the helipad was scrapped on Reflection aside from costs?

 

It is actually safer to use a basket winch than to attempt a landing on such a small area. I have never heard of a helicopter actually landing on a cruise ship's helipad area, but have heard of several evacuations done by winching a basket down to the ship.

[need2bespoiled]

All of the S class ships have helipads with the exception of Reflection. When I did the bridge tour I asked why. I was told it was for weight savings. I didn't pry any further.

 

Im sure the weight savings are considerable as I was also told that the helipad needs considerable reinforcement. However, there must be another reason that the helipad was scrapped on Reflection aside from costs?

 

I was told on Eclipse they would almost never land a helicopter on deck, way to dangerous in flat seas that it is much safer to winch someone up. It seems if they're never going to land a helicopter...save the weight.

 

As an Eclipse aficionado, maybe you can answer this one...

 

Another thing I noticed when arriving into the Southampton area, was a temporary radar antenna (the thing that spins around in circles, seems to appear up on the helipad one afternoon, similar to those up high on the funnels I saw it on the bow camera on the TV, the next day it was gone, and as I had been to a helipad sail away earlier in the cruise, know it wash't there then either, or else people would have been running into it. Any idea what THAT was?

 

I've noticed the radar too, but never that it was gone, just that it isn't moving. The prow of the ship is pretty high off the water, and may create quite a blind spot below the bow area that can't be seen by the upper radar (long range) which then allows the bridge to see things closer up.

 

Happy sailing,

Jenna

[cle-guy]

Uh, not quite. Here is a photo of Silhouette that clearly shows Winch Only in place of the big "H" as on the first three S-class ships.

 

That makes it even MORE ODD.

 

As Eclipse was second to last to be delivered before reflection, I'd understand if the 2 ships that were winch only were Reflection and Eclipse, but that one was winch, then one helipad then the next winch adds to my curiosity...

[cle-guy]

I've noticed the radar too, but never that it was gone, just that it isn't moving. The prow of the ship is pretty high off the water, and may create quite a blind spot below the bow area that can't be seen by the upper radar (long range) which then allows the bridge to see things closer up.

 

Happy sailing,

Jenna

 

As it appeared in the English channel area, I had the same thought thee needed more proximate and detailed radar with all the traffic in the relatively small space... I suppose a similar observation would be had sailing into Sydney Harbour and Hong Kong too....

[need2bespoiled]

That makes it even MORE ODD.

 

As Eclipse was second to last to be delivered before reflection, I'd understand if the 2 ships that were winch only were Reflection and Eclipse, but that one was winch, then one helipad then the next winch adds to my curiosity...

 

No, you have it backwards,

 

Solstice 2008

Equinox 2009

Eclipse 2010

Sillouette 2011

Reflection 2012

 

A few examples of progressions from ship to ship:

 

Silk to Quisine (Equinox to Eclipse)

Glass to Lawn Club, Addition of Porch and cabanas (Eclipse to Sillouette)

Lengthening the back (Eclipse to Silouette)

Removing Quasar, adding more Cabins and special Suites (Silouette to Reflection)

 

Happy sailing,

Jenna

[cle-guy]

No, you have it backwards,

 

Solstice 2008

Equinox 2009

Eclipse 2010

Sillouette 2011

Reflection 2012

 

A few examples of progressions from ship to ship:

 

Silk to Quisine (Equinox to Eclipse)

Glass to Lawn Club, Addition of Porch and cabanas (Eclipse to Sillouette)

Lengthening the back (Eclipse to Silouette)

Removing Quasar, adding more Cabins and special Suites (Silouette to Reflection)

 

Happy sailing,

Jenna

 

Ok then, my anal retentive need for order has been restored!

[need2bespoiled]

Ok then, my anal retentive need for order has been restored!

 

;)

 

Happy Sailing Curt,

Jenna

[C-Dragons]

No, you have it backwards,

 

Solstice 2008

Equinox 2009

Eclipse 2010

Sillouette 2011

Reflection 2012

 

A few examples of progressions from ship to ship:

 

Silk to Quisine (Equinox to Eclipse)

Glass to Lawn Club, Addition of Porch and cabanas (Eclipse to Sillouette)

Lengthening the back (Eclipse to Silouette)

Removing Quasar, adding more Cabins and special Suites (Silouette to Reflection)

 

Happy sailing,

Jenna

Reflection was not only lengthened, like Silhouette, but widened as well. :)

[Project_gal]

There was another recent thread which said that the railing on the earlier S-class ships fold down and [some of] the later ones do not. It also mentioned that it is preferable to winch rather than land the helicopter.

 

[NB Disclaimer: I am no expert and only have a passing interest. This is just what I remember reading.]

[teecee60]

As a retired USN helicopter pilot, I might be able to provide a little background.

 

Although it may SEEM counterintuitive, in MANY cases, (NOT ALL) it is safer to hover above a ship, and winch cargo or a passenger aboard, as opposed to landing.

 

Even though the helicopter AND the ship, are BOTH moving in all three axes, maintaining some distance between the two provides a "safety buffer" of empty space.

 

Within a matter of SECONDS after LANDING on a ship, a helicopter must be chained to the deck to prevent an inadvertent rollover, caused by shifting winds, or deck motion caused by waves or changes in the ships course.

 

Ships certified for LANDING a helicopter have "pad eyes," (cup shaped recesses in in their decks with steel rods incorporated) that provide secure attach points for the chains holding the helicopter to the deck. They also need a trained crew of ground handlers to secure the helicopter.

 

This is in addition to the MUCH thicker, stronger, HEAVIER deck, capable of supporting the full weight of the helicopter, as opposed to a few people needed to support winching operations.

Edited June 7, 2014 by teecee60

[Ando]

As a retired USN helicopter pilot, I might be able to provide a little background.

 

Although it may SEEM counterintuitive, in MANY cases, (NOT ALL) it is safer to hover above a ship, and winch cargo or a passenger aboard, as opposed to landing.

 

Even though the helicopter AND the ship, are BOTH moving in all three axes, maintaining some distance between the two provides a "safety buffer" of empty space.

 

Within a matter of SECONDS after LANDING on a ship, a helicopter must be chained to the deck to prevent an inadvertent rollover, caused by shifting winds, or deck motion caused by waves or changes in the ships course.

 

Ships certified for LANDING a helicopter have "pad eyes," (cup shaped recesses in in their decks with steel rods incorporated) that provide secure attach points for the chains holding the helicopter to the deck. They also need a trained crew of ground handlers to secure the helicopter.

 

This is in addition to the MUCH thicker, stronger, HEAVIER deck, capable of supporting the full weight of the helicopter, as opposed to a few people needed to support winching operations.

 

The depth of knowledge and experience available through the Cruise Critic community never ceases to amaze me - thanks teecee60 :D

[cruisestitch]

Another vivid memory of a helicopter evacuation was seeing all the specially trained crew in firefighting gear stationed along the top decks, in case something horrible would go wrong and spilled fuel would cause a shipboard fire. It's a dangerous operation any way you look at it.

[Ando]

Here is a video of a helicopter landing on Solstice for a medivac - thanks to CC member Flipper133

 

Edited July 9, 2014 by Ando

[Flipper133]

Here is a video of a helicopter landing on Solstice for a medivac - thanks to CC member Flipper133

 

 

A couple of things about this video:

 

1. Note the railings have been dropped - no doubt a safety issue ...although I don't really know what those are.

2. The Solstice had to change course and sail for several hours to meet up with the Helicopter that had flown 4 hrs from Darwin. Subsequently late getting into Cairns.

3. I overheard some passengers questioning why it took so long.... "land is not that far away"..... they did not appreciate that the coast of Arnhem Land in Nth Oz is very remote... and very unlike anything in US. There are no facilities.

4. The Australian helicopter pilot did a fantastic job... I wondered what training they do for this sort of thing.

5. I also wondered about the cost (I am a retired bean counter). The evac was for a crew member so it was all to Celebrities account...but there is no price you can put on human life.

 

All in all an extremely uplifting experience (no pun intended)

 

cheers

Edited July 10, 2014 by Flipper133

[cle-guy]

Thanks for the video!

 

About the railings, I imagine they are dropped to protect the tail of the helicopter in case of movement, just an extra few feet of "wiggle room" if needed.

 

Another thing I observed, a prior poster indicate they have to attach the chopper to the deck with the eyebolt things, this didn't appear to happen here. Id did look almost as if the ship were in a port, or perhaps just close to land for calmer waters?

[teecee60]

A couple of things about this video:

 

1. Note the railings have been dropped - no doubt a safety issue ...although I don't really know what those are.

2. The Solstice had to change course and sail for several hours to meet up with the Helicopter that had flown 4 hrs from Darwin. Subsequently late getting into Cairns.

3. I overheard some passengers questioning why it took so long.... "land is not that far away"..... they did not appreciate that the coast of Arnhem Land in Nth Oz is very remote... and very unlike anything in US. There are no facilities.

4. The Australian helicopter pilot did a fantastic job... I wondered what training they do for this sort of thing.

5. I also wondered about the cost (I am a retired bean counter). The evac was for a crew member so it was all to Celebrities account...but there is no price you can put on human life.

 

All in all an extremely uplifting experience (no pun intended)

 

cheers

 

Thanks to whoever provided the video, AND the added info about the location and circumstances.

 

The helicopter appears to be a BK117/EC145 which is a GREAT aircraft but still fairly small at about 8,000 pounds. (The US Army just purchased several hundred of them) The ones we flew in the Navy were 23,000 pounds.

 

Helicopters are notoriously short ranged compared to fixed wing aircraft, I find it hard to believe they could have flown 4 hours one way or even round trip without refueling SOMEWHERE.

 

Your "bean counter" instincts are really good! The aircraft is probably in the $4-$5 million range even BEFORE being equipped as a medevac, and hourly operating expenses of at LEAST $2500-$3000 per hour. :eek:

 

It was a VERY nice, smooth approach and departure. :cool:

 

 

Thanks for the video!

 

About the railings, I imagine they are dropped to protect the tail of the helicopter in case of movement, just an extra few feet of "wiggle room" if needed.

 

Another thing I observed, a prior poster indicate they have to attach the chopper to the deck with the eyebolt things, this didn't appear to happen here. Id did look almost as if the ship were in a port, or perhaps just close to land for calmer waters?

 

I too, noticed there were no "tie downs" between the helicopter and the deck, which is pretty dicey. But I also noticed the seas were relatively calm. S Class ships are 122,000 tons which USUALLY makes for a fairly stable platform. (Nimitz Class aircraft carriers are only about 100,000 tons!)

 

The deck of a typical cruiser or destroyer of only 9,000 tons can be REALLY moving in rough seas. But even on a carrier all aircraft get chained down ASAP.

 

I think Igor Sikorsky would be happy to know that the wonder of modern technology he played such a big roll in developing can be used to such a purpose. :cool:

Edited July 11, 2014 by teecee60