Jones Act?

[Shmoo here]

What I find funny is what the definition of DISTANT FOREIGN port not in North America appears to be.

 

Vancouver is about 35 miles from the boarder

 

Ensenada is about 80 miles from the boarder

 

And I know I went to public school but I think they are both in NORTH AMERICA right.

 

Old, outdated law but kind of funny.

 

Vancouver and Ensenada are not considered DISTANT foreign ports. They are NEAR foreign ports. Yes, they are both in North America and do not qualify as distant.

 

The only cruises that a DISTANT foreign port is required are cruises that begin in one US port and end in a different US port.

 

For those cruises that either: begin or end in a foreign port with a US port as the other end; or begin and end in a foreign port - all that's required is a stop at ANY foreign port.

 

So, a cruise from Vancouver to Los Angeles needs no other foreign port stop since it begins in one. A round trip cruise out of Los Angeles (or San Francisco, Seattle, Miami, or New York, for example) only requires a stop in ANY foreign port (near or distant).

[bbeanpin]

Vancouver and Ensenada are not considered DISTANT foreign ports. They are NEAR foreign ports. Yes, they are both in North America and do not qualify as distant.

 

 

 

The only cruises that a DISTANT foreign port is required are cruises that begin in one US port and end in a different US port.

 

 

 

For those cruises that either: begin or end in a foreign port with a US port as the other end; or begin and end in a foreign port - all that's required is a stop at ANY foreign port.

 

 

 

So, a cruise from Vancouver to Los Angeles needs no other foreign port stop since it begins in one. A round trip cruise out of Los Angeles (or San Francisco, Seattle, Miami, or New York, for example) only requires a stop in ANY foreign port (near or distant).

 

 

That's why I love Cruise Critic you get to hear from people that know what they are talking about and are willing to share their knowledge. The Carnival CSR was kind of rude and wasn't even using the right law and wouldn't explain why it was a violation.

 

Thanks to everyone that answered.

 

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

[meanjean80]

It is a violation, as pointed out by Tapi.

 

Although, it's not the Jones Act (that refers to cargo), it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act (pertaining to transportation of passengers). Both laws basically say the same thing, but one's about cargo, and one's about passengers.

 

The law is that a foreign-flagged ship (as most cruise ships are) cannot transport passengers from one US port to a different US port (in this case from a Hawaiian port to Los Angeles) without a stop in a distant foreign port. A distant foreign port is defined as any port NOT "North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2).".

 

I was sweating bullets when I read this until I realized Columbia is in South America, as otherwise the Panama Canal cruise on the Legend this August would also be in violation.

[Shmoo here]

I was sweating bullets when I read this until I realized Columbia is in South America, as otherwise the Panama Canal cruise on the Legend this August would also be in violation.

 

Many Panama Canal cruises stop in either Columbia or Aruba. The PVSA is probably the major reason why.

[oceanseagle12]

Vancouver and Ensenada are not considered DISTANT foreign ports. They are NEAR foreign ports. Yes, they are both in North America and do not qualify as distant.

 

The only cruises that a DISTANT foreign port is required are cruises that begin in one US port and end in a different US port.

 

For those cruises that either: begin or end in a foreign port with a US port as the other end; or begin and end in a foreign port - all that's required is a stop at ANY foreign port.

 

So, a cruise from Vancouver to Los Angeles needs no other foreign port stop since it begins in one. A round trip cruise out of Los Angeles (or San Francisco, Seattle, Miami, or New York, for example) only requires a stop in ANY foreign port (near or distant).

 

Actually a round trip cruise does not require any foreign port at all, otherwise they would never be able to have cruises to nowhere. What the PVSA prohibits is beginning your trip in one US port and ending it in a different US port, unless there is the required stop at a distant foreign port.

 

Just wanted to clarify that because this act is often the source of confusion on here.

[Shmoo here]

Actually a round trip cruise does not require any foreign port at all, otherwise they would never be able to have cruises to nowhere. What the PVSA prohibits is beginning your trip in one US port and ending it in a different US port, unless there is the required stop at a distant foreign port.

 

Just wanted to clarify that because this act is often the source of confusion on here.

 

Well, a cruise to nowhere isn't considered a round trip cruise. A round trip cruise stops at other ports. A cruise to nowhere has no port stops.

 

From the PVSA:

 

EXCEPTIONS

 

Transportation of Passengers Between Puerto Rico and Other U.S. Ports—46 U.S.C. § 55104

 

Transportation of Merchandise and Passengers on Canadian Vessels—46 U.S.C. § 55121

 

Cruise to Nowhere

A “cruise to nowhere” is not considered coastwise transportation. A “cruise to nowhere” is the transportation of passengers from a U.S. point to the high seas or foreign waters and back to the same point from which the passengers embarked, assuming the passengers do not go ashore, even temporarily, at another U.S. point. See 29 O.A.G. 318 (1912).

[oceanseagle12]

Well, a cruise to nowhere isn't considered a round trip cruise. A round trip cruise stops at other ports. A cruise to nowhere has no port stops.

 

From the PVSA:

 

EXCEPTIONS

 

Transportation of Passengers Between Puerto Rico and Other U.S. Ports—46 U.S.C. § 55104

 

Transportation of Merchandise and Passengers on Canadian Vessels—46 U.S.C. § 55121

 

Cruise to Nowhere

A “cruise to nowhere” is not considered coastwise transportation. A “cruise to nowhere” is the transportation of passengers from a U.S. point to the high seas or foreign waters and back to the same point from which the passengers embarked, assuming the passengers do not go ashore, even temporarily, at another U.S. point. See 29 O.A.G. 318 (1912).

 

Good point! And to further clarify, I think perhaps what the OP meant to say is that a cruise that involves a port stop in a US port other than the one of origin does require a foreign port. So practically speaking, a cruise will always have a foreign port.

[jwalk03]

Many Panama Canal cruises stop in either Columbia or Aruba. The PVSA is probably the major reason why.

 

The PVSA is without a doubt the reason why! I mean how many other cruise stop in Cartagena?! lol

[jwalk03]

Good point! And to further clarify, I think perhaps what the OP meant to say is that a cruise that involves a port stop in a US port other than the one of origin does require a foreign port. So practically speaking, a cruise will always have a foreign port.

 

Right. This is why Alaska cruises round trip for Seattle require a stop in Canada. If the ship did not stop at a Canadian port it would be a violation of the PVSA, even though it is a roundtrip sailing from the same US port.

[Shmoo here]

I just called Carnival with the following question:

 

Can I stay off the ship between two ports (Kona and Hilo) to do an overnight excursion?

 

The representative said no it was a violation of the Jones Act.

 

Does that sound right or should I continue checking into this?

 

OK, going back to the original question, OP, I found this over on the Ask a Cruise Question board, quite to the point in answer to the question:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=43111383&postcount=4

[ExFed drvr]

I was sweating bullets when I read this until I realized Columbia is in South America, as otherwise the Panama Canal cruise on the Legend this August would also be in violation.

 

I'll be on there also all repo cruises will stop at distant ports like Colombia or Aruba. The Splendor is doing a long cruise to the Carribbean and stops and re-boards in San Juan. But you can't do both legs as there is no Distant foreign ports. Dennis

[k2excursion]

Actually a round trip cruise does not require any foreign port at all, otherwise they would never be able to have cruises to nowhere. What the PVSA prohibits is beginning your trip in one US port and ending it in a different US port, unless there is the required stop at a distant foreign port.

 

Just wanted to clarify that because this act is often the source of confusion on here.

 

I don't want to get us too far off track here, but actually, the ships that are not US flagged (which is almost all of them) are required to visit a foreign port (near or far) on round trip cruises. Alaska cruises that start & end in Seattle must include a short stop in Canada (usually Victoria for a few hours late at night). Hawaii cruises that start & stop in a US port must include a foreign port, usually Ensenada for only a few hours. A cruise to nowhere is exempt, because they didn't stop anywhere. But you cannot start in LA, go to Hawaii, and come back to LA without stopping in a foreign port. The Oct 18 2014 is a great example. They would not have that 5 hour stop in Ensenada if not for this requirement. In emergencies (such as the swine flu thing 5 years ago where Mexico closed everything), waivers will be granted for those sailings that are already out at sea.

[rafinmd]

A cruise to nowhere is specifically authorized by the act (or at least the implementing regulations). If a ship visits any port it must visit a foreign port.

 

See page 15 of CPB compliance guide:

 

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

 

Roy

[oceanseagle12]

I don't want to get us too far off track here, but actually, the ships that are not US flagged (which is almost all of them) are required to visit a foreign port (near or far) on round trip cruises. Alaska cruises that start & end in Seattle must include a short stop in Canada (usually Victoria for a few hours late at night). Hawaii cruises that start & stop in a US port must include a foreign port, usually Ensenada for only a few hours. A cruise to nowhere is exempt, because they didn't stop anywhere. But you cannot start in LA, go to Hawaii, and come back to LA without stopping in a foreign port. The Oct 18 2014 is a great example. They would not have that 5 hour stop in Ensenada if not for this requirement. In emergencies (such as the swine flu thing 5 years ago where Mexico closed everything), waivers will be granted for those sailings that are already out at sea.

 

Yes, you are correct I think we all agree:

 

Good point! And to further clarify, I think perhaps what the OP meant to say is that a cruise that involves a port stop in a US port other than the one of origin does require a foreign port. So practically speaking, a cruise will always have a foreign port.

 

I should have left well enough alone because the end result is that, as a practical matter, all cruises on a foreign flagged ship must be a cruise to nowhere, or include a foreign port.

 

And cruises that start or stop (or any passenger's itinerary) in different US ports must include a DISTANT foreign port.

[jwalk03]

I'll be on there also all repo cruises will stop at distant ports like Colombia or Aruba. The Splendor is doing a long cruise to the Carribbean and stops and re-boards in San Juan. But you can't do both legs as there is no Distant foreign ports. Dennis

 

Puerto Rico is exempt from the PVSA requirements. That's why the Splendor trip from NYC to San Juan is allowed without visiting any of the distant foreign ports.

 

This is why many repos from one us port to another are done as 2 legs with San Juan as the start/stop between the 2.

[SadieN]

................ we all agree:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

…............

 

 

Amazing!!! :D

Edited June 17, 2014 by SadieN

[Shmoo here]

Puerto Rico is exempt from the PVSA requirements. That's why the Splendor trip from NYC to San Juan is allowed without visiting any of the distant foreign ports.

 

This is why many repos from one us port to another are done as 2 legs with San Juan as the start/stop between the 2.

 

Yes, one cruise to or from San Juan to a US port is allowed. So a cruise from NY to San Juan doesn't require the distant foreign port. Or a cruise from San Juan to Miami (or Port Canaveral, Ft Lauderdale, or Boston, or other US port), likewise doesn't require the distant foreign port.

 

However, if the ship then does go from, say, San Juan to Miami, someone cannot book that B2B, because, in the eyes of the PVSA, it's viewed as one transport from New York to Miami and is not allowed because there's no distant foreign port.

[Ontario_Cruiser]

It is too bad that a law written more than a century ago (1886) still impacts us today. At the time, it was intended to protect the American passenger business, which was not cruise related as we see it today, but rather was a point to point transportation service. Why shouldn't the OP have the freedom to find his own way between two places in Hawaii? Does restricting this freedom protect American jobs? Of course not! If I miss the ship in Miami, why should I not be able to board in Key West, the first port of call?

 

The PVSA is an antiquated law that did not even serve it original purpose of keeping vessels flagged in the US. It would be nice if it could be scrapped or at least updated for the current realities.

[Shmoo here]

It is too bad that a law written more than a century ago (1886) still impacts us today. At the time, it was intended to protect the American passenger business, which was not cruise related as we see it today, but rather was a point to point transportation service. Why shouldn't the OP have the freedom to find his own way between two places in Hawaii? Does restricting this freedom protect American jobs? Of course not! If I miss the ship in Miami, why should I not be able to board in Key West, the first port of call?

 

The PVSA is an antiquated law that did not even serve it original purpose of keeping vessels flagged in the US. It would be nice if it could be scrapped or at least updated for the current realities.

 

Well, there was an attempt at amending the law about 8-10 years ago. The only problem was the amendment made the law even less palatable than it currently is.

 

Changes would have made it so that, while the foreign port visited didn't have to be a DISTANT port, the stop had to be overnight. And cruises had to have at least 51% of the ports they stopped at during any given cruise be a foreign port.

 

The big backers to this change were NCL, and the Hawaiian islands business industry, as well as several politicians.

[ExFed drvr]

Puerto Rico is exempt from the PVSA requirements. That's why the Splendor trip from NYC to San Juan is allowed without visiting any of the distant foreign ports.

 

This is why many repos from one us port to another are done as 2 legs with San Juan as the start/stop between the 2.

 

Yes, its allowed but you can not do both cruises as there is no

distant foreign port on either cruise..Dennis

[kteachcruiser52]

Vancouver and Ensenada are not considered DISTANT foreign ports. They are NEAR foreign ports. Yes, they are both in North America and do not qualify as distant.

 

The only cruises that a DISTANT foreign port is required are cruises that begin in one US port and end in a different US port.

 

For those cruises that either: begin or end in a foreign port with a US port as the other end; or begin and end in a foreign port - all that's required is a stop at ANY foreign port.

 

So, a cruise from Vancouver to Los Angeles needs no other foreign port stop since it begins in one. A round trip cruise out of Los Angeles (or San Francisco, Seattle, Miami, or New York, for example) only requires a stop in ANY foreign port (near or distant).

 

I am confused. We went to Hawaii on the Splendor. We left from and returned to Long Beach. We stopped at Ensenada for 5 hours. We were told we had to stop there to meet the requirements of the Jones Act. Ensenada was the only foreign port we stopped at during the cruise that left from and returned to a US port. If that is not considered a distant foreign port how did we meet the requirements of this law?

[crzndeb]

Because it was a round trip from Long Beach, the requirement for the PVSA is to stop at a foreign port. Ensenada is a "near" foreign port. A "distant" foreign port is required when the cruise leaves from 1 US city and arrives at a different US city.

[CoconutJD]

I am confused. We went to Hawaii on the Splendor. We left from and returned to Long Beach. We stopped at Ensenada for 5 hours. We were told we had to stop there to meet the requirements of the Jones Act. Ensenada was the only foreign port we stopped at during the cruise that left from and returned to a US port. If that is not considered a distant foreign port how did we meet the requirements of this law?

If your ship leaves and returns to the same U.S. port, it only needs to call on a foreign port, not a distant foreign port.

 

The ship has to visit a distant foreign port, when it leaves from one U.S. port, and returns to another (example would be a repo cruise that goes from Miami to L.A.).