Gem slide still not operational

[13seth]

I will say this again. A pump is a pump is a pump. Even if this pump had to be delivered from the farthest point on earth, it could be there in a day or two. I can guarantee that is not a one of a kind pump that needs to be made. This is a hot topic with a lot of people, the wheels should be turning faster.

 

Not that anyone cares but here is what I would do:

1-order the pump

2-get that pump to PR or St Thomas by the time the Gem docks there next

3-have installers and an electrician on board to do the work

4-Schedule an inspection in NY as soon as the Gem docks next

 

Before any one says that this is not doable, money talks and NCL has the money to fix this very quickly. Even an inspector could do this a drop of a hat if the right channels are used.

 

Agree 100%, only thing I would add is order 2 so you have a back up. Might be worth the extra to assure that hundreds of families that spent thousands for this cruise wouldn't be disappointed when one of the cruise ships main attractions shuts down.

[chengkp75]

If a cruise ship,has a waterside pump break, they should have a means of repairing it in my opinion. Whether it is 440v or 480v on the ship, they should be able o get a new pump. If it needs to meet European requirements, have one sent from Europe. I have a 5hp variable speed German pump,on my pool in Ct.

Pumps go bad and there should be a plan in place to repair or replace pretty quickly. I am guessing that they are upgrading to a high efficiency pump so it is more complicated than just a swap but even if that is the case they should swap something else in while waiting for the upgrade.

I do believe that the pump would have to be greater than 5hp, it's not the amount of water but the lift that requires more energy. Most 5hp pumps that can pump 6,000 gallons per hour will not pump any water over 50' in a 3inch pipe.

Again, I do not blame people for being very surprised that with all their resources, they can't immediately repair or replace a broken pump?

 

Yes, if something breaks, they will generally have some spare parts onboard, but not one of everything, so sometimes it requires time to get a part to the ship. From what I understand, this is either a new installation, or an upgrade, so an entire new pump is required. The ships I work on, and the cruise ships I used to work on, require nearly all spare parts to be purchased in Europe. It is a normal delivery time to take 3 months from order to delivery onboard. Rush items regularly take 6-8 weeks, and items that can affect the ships ability to leave port can still take over a week, even given the best efforts of the entire company to get the problem fixed, as stopping a ship means loss of large amounts of revenue.

 

Very, very often, we will order routine spare parts, things like parts for the vacuum toilets onboard. You would think this stuff is laying around in huge piles, but the best delivery we can get is 2-3 weeks from the time the order is placed, for it to be delivered to the freight forwarder in Europe, and then for it to be airfreighted and clear customs, and then get to the ship.

 

One interesting feature of buying in Europe, which isn't the case at this time of year though, is that factories will close down completely for two weeks in summer, giving vacation to all employees at the same time. They generally don't even leave anyone to answer the phone to take orders.

[chengkp75]

I will say this again. A pump is a pump is a pump. Even if this pump had to be delivered from the farthest point on earth, it could be there in a day or two. I can guarantee that is not a one of a kind pump that needs to be made. This is a hot topic with a lot of people, the wheels should be turning faster.

 

Not that anyone cares but here is what I would do:

1-order the pump

2-get that pump to PR or St Thomas by the time the Gem docks there next

3-have installers and an electrician on board to do the work

4-Schedule an inspection in NY as soon as the Gem docks next

 

Before any one says that this is not doable, money talks and NCL has the money to fix this very quickly. Even an inspector could do this a drop of a hat if the right channels are used.

 

First off, this is a hot topic with a lot of CC people, who make up a very small minority of cruisers. I can assure you that the wheels are turning, and turning as fast as they can. And, as unpopular as this statement will be here, NCL works on a cost/benefit basis, just like any other business. So, they will decide if the cost of having the slide out of service for a few weeks (even to their long term reputation) is worth the extra cost of doing all that you seem to feel they could do instantaneously.

 

Your statement that "a pump is a pump" shows a lack of familiarity with the maritime industry. If that was followed in all cases, the ship could just order any old pump for the steering gear, and when it failed and the ship ran aground, they would say "gee, we thought it would work". While comparing a pool slide pump to a steering pump is extreme, unfortunately the classification societies (insurance underwriters) and the IMO don't differentiate between equipment. It all must meet the same criteria for design, construction, inspection, installation, operation, and maintenance.

[skeeter195]

Cheng, I appreciate your knowledge on this subject and you seem to have installed and worked on systems similar to this one. It must have been frustrating for you to have to wait on parts that took weeks or months to get to you.

 

As far as comparing a simple slide pump to a steering pump, c'mon, stop.

 

Honestly though the business end of this is what the problem is. Again the problem is getting the parts. If I myself can order a simple part such as pump and have it delivered to my house from Europe or Asia in a day or two, you can bet that NCL can get it faster.

 

People talk, and when some are bothered so much and threaten to cancel or switch cruises than yes it does become cost effective to get this fixed ASAP.

 

I am sorry but if the right person at NCL sees this than this problem would be fixed by the next sailing, no doubt.

[chengkp75]

Cheng, I appreciate your knowledge on this subject and you seem to have installed and worked on systems similar to this one. It must have been frustrating for you to have to wait on parts that took weeks or months to get to you.

 

As far as comparing a simple slide pump to a steering pump, c'mon, stop.

 

Honestly though the business end of this is what the problem is. Again the problem is getting the parts. If I myself can order a simple part such as pump and have it delivered to my house from Europe or Asia in a day or two, you can bet that NCL can get it faster.

 

People talk, and when some are bothered so much and threaten to cancel or switch cruises than yes it does become cost effective to get this fixed ASAP.

 

I am sorry but if the right person at NCL sees this than this problem would be fixed by the next sailing, no doubt.

 

You think I'm over the top comparing a water slide to the ship's steering? In terms of importance to the safety of the ship, sure. In terms of what is needed to meet the equipment requirements for them, they are identical. You want a business perspective? How about liability. If the ship installs anything that does not meet the manufacturer's original specifications (and this normally means supplied by the manufacturer), and someone gets hurt on the equipment (whether it is a passenger in a water slide or a crew hurt when working on something that fails), the company assumes full liability, and the equipment manufacturer has none. Further, the classification society will say that since the company did not follow their ISM procedures, or the class society's guidelines for ship construction and operation, that they will no longer issue a certificate of class, without which a ship doesn't get insurance, nor does it get a certificate of registry (think title) from the flag state. Extreme? You might think that, but depending on the severity of the failure and injury, it very well could and does happen.

 

I will leave with one final example of how things work in the maritime business. My ship has a PLC (programmable logic controller, think "pre-computer") that controls some aspects of cargo handling equipment. Without this PLC working, we could not move cargo, and were therefore "unusable" and would be out our $75k/day charter rate. The PLC corrupted the software. We asked the manufacturer for a new copy. They told us that one would be ready in 3 days, no sooner, and they would ship it then. We paid to have a courier fly from Norway to the US, hand carrying the software, but we were still off hire for 4 days. Did the manufacturer have this software available at their facility? Yes. Did they know what version or custom variant we had? Sure. But they still needed to burn a copy of the updated/customized software, and then test it, and that took days. Did we make a mistake in not having a backup? Sure, but we were under the assumption that it existed onboard (on a EEPROM chip that was not included in the original supply), simply because we had never needed it before. Things happen.

 

I sure wish that I could get Amazon Prime and overnight shipping for our parts, but that is just not the case.

 

Have you never experienced where a resort has a ride down for maintenance, or a hotel has an elevator out of service for maintenance? Sometimes down time on equipment happens, and you do the best you can to get it back up running, and it doesn't benefit the company in any way to delay this.

[Carol++]

Didn't they renovate the whole old slide in less than two weeks during dry dock?

Something is very wrong here.

We know that NCL reads these Cruise Critic boards. Someone from NCL should clarify the situation and explain on these boards what happened and when it will be actually ready for use.

They do owe their future passengers at least this.

If the slide is not ready for my cruise in January for my two grandsons first cruise, I would like to know and switch to the Breakaway. I made the mistake of showing them photos of the slide and they were so excited!!

 

Don

 

Don, if I am not mistaken, there is an age requirement for the slides on all ships. I don't recall exactly what age, but I do recall that my 6 yo daughter was not allowed.

[dongordon]

Don, if I am not mistaken, there is an age requirement for the slides on all ships. I don't recall exactly what age, but I do recall that my 6 yo daughter was not allowed.

 

 

Hi Carol....

Most of these water slides have height restrictions instead of age requirements...at least the waterslide in my village pool does.

That being said, the ship might be different, but how could they be sure of the child's age? :)

 

Don

[njhorseman]

I enjoy any thread where chengkp75 is educating us.

 

I'm also constantly amazed that there are posters who surely don't have his 40 years of experience as a maritime engineer (if that's the correct description of his profession... if not I apologize !) that try to argue with him about things he knows and they don't.

[skeeter195]

You win Cheng, I am done.

[Carol++]

Hi Carol....

Most of these water slides have height restrictions instead of age requirements...at least the waterslide in my village pool does.

That being said, the ship might be different, but how could they be sure of the child's age? :)

 

Don

Yes, I guess it was height.

[luvtheships]

Hi Carol....

 

Most of these water slides have height restrictions instead of age requirements...at least the waterslide in my village pool does.

 

That being said, the ship might be different, but how could they be sure of the child's age? :)

 

 

 

Don

 

 

The slides on the ba are very very steep

 

Let's hope the gem is operational for your grandkids

[dongordon]

The slides on the ba are very very steep

 

Let's hope the gem is operational for your grandkids

 

Yes, I was on the BA and I believe there are two water slides and one of the slides is very steep. I am not sure about the other.

I hope it is not too steep for the 5 year old.

Both of them use my village pool water slides about 50 times a day when they visit.

I can't keep them off it! :D

That is why I know how disappointed they will be when they see it on the GEM and they cannot go on it.

 

Don

[Carol++]

Yes, I was on the BA and I believe there are two water slides and one of the slides is very steep. I am not sure about the other.

I hope it is not too steep for the 5 year old.

Both of them use my village pool water slides about 50 times a day when they visit.

I can't keep them off it! :D

That is why I know how disappointed they will be when they see it on the GEM and they cannot go on it.

 

Don

 

My 6 yo was at the time a very nimble, athletic and sturdy little gymnast. She was soooo disappointed (and angry) not to be allowed on the Gem slide. I was pretty angry also.

[luvtheships]

Yes, I was on the BA and I believe there are two water slides and one of the slides is very steep. I am not sure about the other.

 

I hope it is not too steep for the 5 year old.

 

Both of them use my village pool water slides about 50 times a day when they visit.

 

I can't keep them off it! :D

 

That is why I know how disappointed they will be when they see it on the GEM and they cannot go on it.

 

 

 

Don

 

 

Hmmm....my 19 and 20 yo only went down 2x the entire 12 days last Jan

 

We are a water slide family but the ba slides were too much for them. Also they scratched themselves going down once

 

Rope course was great and if the grandkids meet the requirement and an adult is with them then that is lots of fun on the ba.

[13seth]

I enjoy any thread where chengkp75 is educating us.

 

I'm also constantly amazed that there are posters who surely don't have his 40 years of experience as a maritime engineer (if that's the correct description of his profession... if not I apologize !) that try to argue with him about things he knows and they don't.

 

I also enjoy being educated but am a bit hesitant to believe that just because someone claims to have experience and posts some "facts" that I am getting reliable information.

As far as " European electrical code" I believe Europe uses IEC(International Electrical Code). He stated that the pool pump and parts would have to be from Europe, I know that Hayward, Pentair, Whirlpool and Starite pool pumps are all sold in Europe and most of these have A.O. smith Motors on them.

I also noticed that on the Breakaway they had pool pumps and filters made by a U.S. Company.

As far as not needing a Certified Pool Operator because the pools are frequently drained? These pools are still sucsceptible to water borne illness.

You can choose to believe everything that someone claiming 40 yrs experience tells you but it doesn't add up. You can assume who actually knows what they are talking about but you might be surprised if you knew the facts.

[fshagan]

He stated that the pool pump and parts would have to be from Europe, I know that Hayward, Pentair, Whirlpool and Starite pool pumps are all sold in Europe and most of these have A.O. smith Motors on them.

 

I worked for two of those companies. Hayward did have a marine division when I worked with them in a senior technical position, but they did not sell a single marine duty pump. I worked there for 14 years, and they might have since acquired a division that does sell marine pumps, but I doubt it.

 

I don't find your arguments persuasive at all. Knowing a lot about one industry, like the US swimming pool and public pool markets, does not make you an expert in marine grade materials. I don't think any of those companies even make deck wash pumps for the domestic boat market (I could be wrong about StaRite; they make a ton of pumps).

[chengkp75]

I also enjoy being educated but am a bit hesitant to believe that just because someone claims to have experience and posts some "facts" that I am getting reliable information.

 

You can believe me and/or my credentials or not, that's your right.

 

As far as " European electrical code" I believe Europe uses IEC(International Electrical Code). He stated that the pool pump and parts would have to be from Europe, I know that Hayward, Pentair, Whirlpool and Starite pool pumps are all sold in Europe and most of these have A.O. smith Motors on them.

 

And again, are any of these pool pumps for marine duty, specifically TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled)? Every pool pump I've seen has an open frame which would last about 5 days in a marine environment, let alone a ship's pool mechanical room where there are acid and chlorine dosing pumps and open tanks of these corrosives.

 

I also noticed that on the Breakaway they had pool pumps and filters made by a U.S. Company.

 

Where were these pumps and filters, cause I've never seen any in passenger areas?

 

As far as not needing a Certified Pool Operator because the pools are frequently drained? These pools are still sucsceptible to water borne illness.

 

And, as I said, the USPH (US Public Health Service, a division of the CDC has regulations covering ship sanitation for foreign passenger ships that embark in the US, and they don't require a certification process, but simply that the operator shows sufficient knowledge of pool chemistry, pool sanitation, safe pool design, and fecal incident protocols to the inspector. The USPH sets standards for pool construction, operation, water quality, chemistry, and sanitation. If you want to see them, google USPH VSP and look at the 2011 VSP Operations Manual (all 300 pages). Many USPH inspectors are former local and state health inspectors (many from NYC), who will tell you that the VSP is far stricter than nearly every local or state health code, and covers a vastly greater amount of shipboard operations than local and state health codes. The major comment that USPH inspectors make is that the ships don't require a lot of the fancy chemicals and testing that shore pools need, we only need Ph and chlorine (and chlorine is the sanitizing agent) because ships do not build up the residual biological matter that shore pools do because the ships get rid of the water sooner.

 

You can choose to believe everything that someone claiming 40 yrs experience tells you but it doesn't add up. You can assume who actually knows what they are talking about but you might be surprised if you knew the facts.

 

I worked for two of those companies. Hayward did have a marine division when I worked with them in a senior technical position, but they did not sell a single marine duty pump. I worked there for 14 years, and they might have since acquired a division that does sell marine pumps, but I doubt it.

 

I don't find your arguments persuasive at all. Knowing a lot about one industry, like the US swimming pool and public pool markets, does not make you an expert in marine grade materials. I don't think any of those companies even make deck wash pumps for the domestic boat market (I could be wrong about StaRite; they make a ton of pumps).

 

Your statement about marine duty is spot on. As stated above, all motors must be TEFC, and while even a household pool pump meets "code", there are a wide range of insulation classes, service ratings, power factor ratings, that a pool pump can be allowed under, that a marine motor cannot. There are sections of the IEC, as well as the NEC, that cover the various environments a motor can operate in, and the requirements change for each case, yet they all "meet code". I won't go into mounting, chemical resistance of wetted parts, the differences between NPT and BSP pipe threads, mounting holes metric/imperial, and a host of other mitigating factors against picking up just any pump and using it.

 

I've beaten this horse enough. I have never operated a pool ashore in my life, so I can't comment on 13seth's knowledge or qualifications, but I will stand by my career at sea, spanning virtually every type of ocean-going commercial vessel there is.

Edited December 23, 2015 by chengkp75

[sparks1093]

I also enjoy being educated but am a bit hesitant to believe that just because someone claims to have experience and posts some "facts" that I am getting reliable information.

As far as " European electrical code" I believe Europe uses IEC(International Electrical Code). He stated that the pool pump and parts would have to be from Europe, I know that Hayward, Pentair, Whirlpool and Starite pool pumps are all sold in Europe and most of these have A.O. smith Motors on them.

I also noticed that on the Breakaway they had pool pumps and filters made by a U.S. Company.

As far as not needing a Certified Pool Operator because the pools are frequently drained? These pools are still sucsceptible to water borne illness.

You can choose to believe everything that someone claiming 40 yrs experience tells you but it doesn't add up. You can assume who actually knows what they are talking about but you might be surprised if you knew the facts.

 

Those of us who've been around a while know chengkp75 well. He has no dog in this fight, so he can tell it like it is. I know who I choose to believe (even though I don't have a dog in this fight either since I'm not booked on the Gem).

[dongordon]

I believe the most important thing I would like to see from this thread is an answer from NCL with full disclosure on the reason the water slide is not open and when it will be open.

Is that too much to ask?

 

I believe it is very important to get that information for future cruisers to make a decision on what ship they will choose based on the importance of a water slide for their upcoming cruises.

 

If they are uncertain, we can bring that into the equation and then choose accordingly.

 

It is sad that this issue has been going on since November and we have not had a definitive answer from NCL on the present and future status of the water slide.

One of the great mysteries in maritime history! :D

Sorry for my sarcasm, but NCL customers deserve better from their chosen cruise line.

 

Don

Edited December 23, 2015 by dongordon

[Mr and Mrs C]

I believe the most important thing I would like to see from this thread is an answer from NCL with full disclosure on the reason the water slide is not open and when it will be open.

Is that too much to ask?

 

I believe it is very important to get that information for future cruisers to make a decision on what ship they will choose based on the importance of a water slide for their upcoming cruises.

 

If they are uncertain, we can bring that into the equation and then choose accordingly.

 

It is sad that this issue has been going on since November and we have not had a definitive answer from NCL on the present and future status of the water slide.

One of the great mysteries in maritime history! :D

Sorry for my sarcasm, but NCL customers deserve better from their chosen cruise line.

 

Don

 

 

Agreed, I was chatting with my PCC yesterday and asked her about it so she said she would look it up. She started telling me about the Gem, and how there is a bowling alley! When I told her that was now gone she had no idea. So after being put on hold she came back and said the slide was indeed not working and they were not sure when it would be. She advised me to keep an eye on cruise critic for info!

Really hoping that the people getting on board today report that it's ready to go!

[sparks1093]

I believe the most important thing I would like to see from this thread is an answer from NCL with full disclosure on the reason the water slide is not open and when it will be open.

Is that too much to ask?

 

I believe it is very important to get that information for future cruisers to make a decision on what ship they will choose based on the importance of a water slide for their upcoming cruises.

 

If they are uncertain, we can bring that into the equation and then choose accordingly.

 

It is sad that this issue has been going on since November and we have not had a definitive answer from NCL on the present and future status of the water slide.

One of the great mysteries in maritime history! :D

Sorry for my sarcasm, but NCL customers deserve better from their chosen cruise line.

 

Don

 

It's one water slide on one ship and while I am sure they are doing everything they can to get it repaired in a timely fashion (it does them no good to leave it broken after all) to Corporate it remains one water slide on one ship. I'm sure they have much more pressing issues to deal with.

[luvtheships]

I believe the most important thing I would like to see from this thread is an answer from NCL with full disclosure on the reason the water slide is not open and when it will be open.

Is that too much to ask?

 

I believe it is very important to get that information for future cruisers to make a decision on what ship they will choose based on the importance of a water slide for their upcoming cruises.

 

If they are uncertain, we can bring that into the equation and then choose accordingly.

 

It is sad that this issue has been going on since November and we have not had a definitive answer from NCL on the present and future status of the water slide.

One of the great mysteries in maritime history! :D

Sorry for my sarcasm, but NCL customers deserve better from their chosen cruise line.

 

Don

 

 

I agree with you don but I don't think you will see a reply here from Ncl

 

However if you make 3 or 4 calls to Ncl you might get the same answer 2x. I've actually spoken to knowledgable people at Ncl over the years

 

IMHO I don't think Ncl gives a hoot one way or another if the slide is open because they will just leave it up to pool deck crew or guest services on the ship to deal with the pax

 

Pool deck will just smile and not have an answer

 

Guest services will either just smile and say it's just not operational at this point and there is nothing that they can do about it

 

Or

 

You might get lucky and get one of the really nasty guest services who will just stare you down...say nothing can be done...and roll their eyes and walk away into the back room

 

My guess is that if there are enough complaints on the dec 23 cruise that by the end of the 10 days Ncl corporate will authorize an obc per pax

 

$5 or $10 perhaps. Like they sometimes do for a last minute issue.

[chengkp75]

I believe the most important thing I would like to see from this thread is an answer from NCL with full disclosure on the reason the water slide is not open and when it will be open.

Is that too much to ask?

 

I believe it is very important to get that information for future cruisers to make a decision on what ship they will choose based on the importance of a water slide for their upcoming cruises.

 

If they are uncertain, we can bring that into the equation and then choose accordingly.

 

It is sad that this issue has been going on since November and we have not had a definitive answer from NCL on the present and future status of the water slide.

One of the great mysteries in maritime history! :D

Sorry for my sarcasm, but NCL customers deserve better from their chosen cruise line.

 

Don

 

Maybe its just me, but I don't get why this is such an issue. I have been to several theme parks where at least one ride or attraction is down for repair or refurbishment, and I never would have thought to ask, in advance, for notification that it wasn't working, let alone an explanation as to why or when it would be up, and couldn't conceive of thinking of compensation for it not working. Have you ever flown on a plane where one of the toilets doesn't work? Did you ask for notification in advance, or expect a refund for not being able to use it? I guess I'm just old fashioned.

[dongordon]

Maybe its just me, but I don't get why this is such an issue. I have been to several theme parks where at least one ride or attraction is down for repair or refurbishment, and I never would have thought to ask, in advance, for notification that it wasn't working, let alone an explanation as to why or when it would be up, and couldn't conceive of thinking of compensation for it not working. Have you ever flown on a plane where one of the toilets doesn't work? Did you ask for notification in advance, or expect a refund for not being able to use it? I guess I'm just old fashioned.

 

I cannot speak for others, but for me this is a BIG issue only because my grandsons love the water slide so much and when I showed them the various photos of the GEM when we told them about the cruise, all they talked about was the water slide. What can I say, but these kids are more excited about this on the GEM than anything else. :)

 

I even called Concierge Services last month because NCL directed me there because I wanted to know if I could switch to the Breakaway because of the importance of the water slide to my grandsons. They assured me that it would be open by my cruise (January 22nd) and there was no need to switch.

 

I guess I am a grandfather who wants his two grandsons to have a "super cruise" for their FIRST CRUISE and does not want to disappoint them in anyway.

Isn't that what grandfathers do? :)

 

Frankly, with this issue still not resolved and my cruise only a month away has me a bit nervous and that is my concern.

Added to that is all the technical information I am reading and now it might not be as simple a task as I originally thought.

 

Don

[Carol++]

Maybe its just me, but I don't get why this is such an issue. I have been to several theme parks where at least one ride or attraction is down for repair or refurbishment, and I never would have thought to ask, in advance, for notification that it wasn't working, let alone an explanation as to why or when it would be up, and couldn't conceive of thinking of compensation for it not working. Have you ever flown on a plane where one of the toilets doesn't work? Did you ask for notification in advance, or expect a refund for not being able to use it? I guess I'm just old fashioned.

 

Cheng, I admire you for your knowledge and for taking the time to share it here. That said, it feels disingenuous to equate the Gem slide situation with that of a single broken toilet or a ride at an amusement park. There are tons of rides at an amusement park. The Gem slide is the only one aboard. I would not tell a customer, for example: Sorry the Gem slide is out of commission -- why don't you try Karaoke?

 

Don -- I was looking on some other threads about restrictions for use of the slides on BA. To use the vertical slides on BA, the passenger must weigh no less than 100 pounds. There is an upper restriction also. (I am not sure about the restrictions for the other BA slide.) Does your younger grandson meet the height restriction (48 inches) for Gem?

 

My wish is that the new slide, when finished, will allow smaller kids to ride.

 

- Carol