Muster drill difficulties

[joepeka]

See post #37 about why this isn't just some decision by the cruise line to annoy the passengers. Guess what, on those ships where you go to a lounge, restaurant or casino, that is your exact muster station where you will go in an actual emergency.

 

As always, the voice of reason. Thank you. ;)

[bshow]

The muster drill is completely ridiculous and ineffective. Just one of the relatively minor (and few, thankfully) indignities that come with cruising.

 

Your actual chances of survival will depend, I submit, on your personal cognizance of the abundant and detailed safety information available right in your cabin. You need to actually think about where to go, what the sounds are, etc.

 

The drill is not about your safety at all. It may provide the cruise line with some measure of liability protection in the event of injuries during an incident, and so the industry goes along, using "the law" as cover...

[hrhdhd]

See post #37 about why this isn't just some decision by the cruise line to annoy the passengers. Guess what, on those ships where you go to a lounge, restaurant or casino, that is your exact muster station where you will go in an actual emergency.

 

Er, yes, that's what I said (without the "annoy the passengers" bit). Not sure why you quoted me.

[chengkp75]

Er, yes, that's what I said (without the "annoy the passengers" bit). Not sure why you quoted me.

 

Just as reinforcement.

[chengkp75]

The muster drill is completely ridiculous and ineffective. Just one of the relatively minor (and few, thankfully) indignities that come with cruising.

 

Your actual chances of survival will depend, I submit, on your personal cognizance of the abundant and detailed safety information available right in your cabin. You need to actually think about where to go, what the sounds are, etc.

 

The drill is not about your safety at all. It may provide the cruise line with some measure of liability protection in the event of injuries during an incident, and so the industry goes along, using "the law" as cover...

 

So, my question to you is; how would you do things differently? What would be better to provide for passenger safety without "using the law as cover"?

 

As anyone who has done emergency training and has experienced emergency situations will know, there is no guarantee that even the best trained personnel will not be able to "run towards the fire" when it actually happens. The best way to improve the odds is "muscle memory", or training, so that the correct response is automatic. The passenger muster drill is training for passengers, even though once through is hardly enough. Would you want a daily drill? Required training before going on a ship?

 

While you are correct in that the person most liable for your personal safety is you, do you really think that your safety depends solely on yourself, or would the actions of the rest of the thousands of passengers possibly affect your ability to survive? Could the fact that some passengers would not take the time you do to study where to go, and get lost, causing crew to be diverted to searching for them, rather than their primary emergency function, cause an incident to escalate and increase your odds of not surviving? Or are you fully trained in maritime fire fighting and lifeboat operation?

 

The "indignity" of the muster drill is required for just the reason that you and all the passengers are not trained, so you are herded like cattle (to be blunt), to some place of safety while the professionals get on with the job.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I just read on a Zuiderdam review that their muster drill was done inside, close to where the lifeboat station was, due to bad weather. If it can be done that way once, why not always?

 

 

 

Good Question!!

[Krazy Kruizers]

who make the drills too long. Sometimes it's quite hot and other times it was very cold.I think I read that they are now not requiring passengers on B2B to go to the second muster as they know where their station is. That's an improvement if it is true.

 

 

On our October Eurodam Collector's Cruise, we had to attend both lifeboat drills.

Maybe things have changed since then.

[bshow]

So, my question to you is; how would you do things differently? What would be better to provide for passenger safety without "using the law as cover"?

 

I have no idea. But I think the current drill could be eliminated totally and not impact passenger safety to any significant degree. Or just make it voluntary (more on that below).

 

As anyone who has done emergency training and has experienced emergency situations will know, there is no guarantee that even the best trained personnel will not be able to "run towards the fire" when it actually happens. The best way to improve the odds is "muscle memory", or training, so that the correct response is automatic. The passenger muster drill is training for passengers, even though once through is hardly enough. Would you want a daily drill? Required training before going on a ship?

 

I totally agree with you on the need for training. For the crew. Passengers are not crew and will never be.

 

The passengers are no more "trained" after the drill than before. 90% of the dumb drill is taking roll. If you pay attention during the relevant portions of the drill, you know three things: the signals, where your lifeboat is, and how to put on your life jacket. All of which you can (and should!) study and practice by yourself, if you are so motivated.

 

And if you are not so motivated, that could very well be a reasonable choice. Some people buy insurance; some don't. Everyone has a different level of risk tolerance. I would say a huge number of people would not attend the drill if it were voluntary; wouldn't you agree? But if it is so obviously valuable and important, everyone would attend eagerly, no?

 

While you are correct in that the person most liable for your personal safety is you, do you really think that your safety depends solely on yourself

 

No, of course not, and I never said any such thing. I depend on the training of the crew and the design of the safety equipment and procedures.

 

, or would the actions of the rest of the thousands of passengers possibly affect your ability to survive? Could the fact that some passengers would not take the time you do to study where to go, and get lost, causing crew to be diverted to searching for them, rather than their primary emergency function, cause an incident to escalate and increase your odds of not surviving?

 

Sure, that's possible. But the drill does little or nothing to affect that. Next time you're at one of these passenger drills, just look around. You can force people to be there, but you can't force them to pay attention.

 

Or are you fully trained in maritime fire fighting and lifeboat operation?

 

I don't need to be. The drill doesn't provide that training, so what are you talking about?

 

The "indignity" of the muster drill is required for just the reason that you and all the passengers are not trained, so you are herded like cattle (to be blunt), to some place of safety while the professionals get on with the job.

 

Good to see you agree with me that the drill is not about training, but about herding and control. ;)

[G&G]

We sailed in Oceania back in November, their muster drills are inside. Some go to the MDR, showroom, etc. We did have to take our life jackets and did have to put them on. You were supposed to keep them on until you got back to your room. It gets mighty hot with those dam things on in the show room. It was a Long drawn out procedure, much longer than HAL's.

 

Frankly, I was uneasy to think of this as our muster station and waiting for this huge crowd to move if we had to get to a lifeboat.

 

And to make matters worse, we had to do it again in 7 days.

 

I am more comfortable knowing where I have to get to in an emergency and getting there without waiting for 400+ other people who may be ahead of me (seats were allocated based on location and we were near back)

 

 

There are no outside decks near the life boats on Oceania ships. Most boats will be boarded directly from a public area through a door into the boat; that is why the muster drill is not outside. I prefer seating in a lounge or MDR for the drill.

 

We just got off the Ruby Princess and the drill was in the Fusion Lounge. A video was presented in the lounge about in case of an emergency and the life boats were called survival crafts

[Topsham]

I have no idea. But I think the current drill could be eliminated totally and not impact passenger safety to any significant degree. Or just make it voluntary (more on that below).

QUOTE]

 

 

 

 

 

The worst kind of passenger.... a selfish boor.

[Lizzie68]

Regardless of all the objections above, and the suggestion that only the crew needs muster drill - I, for one, appreciate it and think it's important we at least know how to get to the lifeboats. Yes, it can be uncomfortable, but in a real emergency I can just imagine the chaos that would ensue. To at least have some basic instruction beforehand is imperative.

[jaxonboy]

Muster drills reduce chaos in the event of an abandon ship emergency. I have been through enough to witness guests yakking away while cabins are called, guests not realizing the number on their sail and sign card is their muster station, and general grumbling.

 

Of course the majority behave quite well.

 

Plart of the problem on the Concordia was the delay boarding the boats until the muster roll had been completed. I hope there is never another similar emergency and that people talking, or being at the wrong muster station do not delay the timely loading of the lifeboats.

 

I wonder if staying hydrated would help with the fainting and heatstroke. Alcohol might be avoided until after the drill.

[RMLincoln]

......I wonder if staying hydrated would help with the fainting and heatstroke. Alcohol might be avoided until after the drill.

 

I love this idea (which I bolded above)! Not that I think it could happen. But I think it would be great if the bars didn't open until after the muster drill.

But I'm probably the only one and the accountants would revolt. :p m--

[bshow]

I have no idea. But I think the current drill could be eliminated totally and not impact passenger safety to any significant degree. Or just make it voluntary (more on that below).

 

QUOTE]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The worst kind of passenger.... a selfish boor.

 

 

Was that directed at me? If so, I don't quite follow your point.

[chengkp75]

Good Question!!

 

Because the drill was not held at the official muster stations, the Captain had to submit a "Non-conformity Report" to both shoreside staff, for their post-approval, and into the ship's records for the ISM auditors to review, with the reasons for the non-conformity. You are not allowed to use non-conformity reports to regularly bypass company or regulatory requirements, and if there are too many NCR's on file, the ISM auditing authority can require significant remediation measures (additional training of officers and crew, more shoreside oversight of operations, etc.) or even pull the ISM certificate which would stop a ship from sailing.

[chengkp75]

I have no idea. But I think the current drill could be eliminated totally and not impact passenger safety to any significant degree. Or just make it voluntary (more on that below).

 

 

 

I totally agree with you on the need for training. For the crew. Passengers are not crew and will never be.

 

The passengers are no more "trained" after the drill than before. 90% of the dumb drill is taking roll. If you pay attention during the relevant portions of the drill, you know three things: the signals, where your lifeboat is, and how to put on your life jacket. All of which you can (and should!) study and practice by yourself, if you are so motivated.

 

The major purpose, and the training, of the passenger drill is to show everyone how to get to their muster location, from wherever they are onboard.

 

And if you are not so motivated, that could very well be a reasonable choice. Some people buy insurance; some don't. Everyone has a different level of risk tolerance. I would say a huge number of people would not attend the drill if it were voluntary; wouldn't you agree? But if it is so obviously valuable and important, everyone would attend eagerly, no?

 

No, because very, very few people, even mariners, are familiar with actual shipboard emergencies, so they have the mind set of "it will never happen to me", so the training is mandatory.

 

 

 

No, of course not, and I never said any such thing. I depend on the training of the crew and the design of the safety equipment and procedures.

 

And those safety procedures of the crew depend on the passengers at least having some knowledge of what to do.

 

 

 

Sure, that's possible. But the drill does little or nothing to affect that. Next time you're at one of these passenger drills, just look around. You can force people to be there, but you can't force them to pay attention.

 

Just by having everyone there, you have accomplished the major portion of the training. What I mean by the actions of the rest of the passengers affecting your safety, to give an example, is what if you are trying to get down a staircase to get to your muster location, while everyone else is jamming the stairs going up to "get to a higher deck"?

 

I don't need to be. The drill doesn't provide that training, so what are you talking about?

 

What I mean is what I said. If the crew has to spend additional time herding passengers to where they can be accounted for, then they may not be available to deal with the immediate emergency, and this could affect your safety, unless you feel that you could lend a hand?

 

 

 

Good to see you agree with me that the drill is not about training, but about herding and control. ;)

 

I didn't say the drill wasn't about training, I said the passengers weren't trained. As stated above, getting people to move, all at once, to their assigned locations and, hopefully, to listen to their muster leader, is the training.

 

And I know of several ships where if there is sufficient noise at muster, the Captain will announce that drill will not be over until everyone has shut up and heard what is said.

 

What Topsham was saying, I believe, is that your attitude that there should be nothing anywhere that is mandatory on my vacation is wrong.

[Ken_W]

Is there any way to avoid having to stand outside in the heat during muster drill? On our last (Carnival) cruise, we ended up having to stand outside for almost an hour and I nearly fainted and threw up. It's really difficult for me to stand for that long. I was crowded by much taller people and it was extremely unpleasant. I have no problem with doing the safety drill, but it lasted WAY too long and was full of trivial, non-safety related drivel. Can I get a chair to sit in? Is there any way to better endure this?

 

If you go to Amazon or just Google "cane seat" (without the quotation marks) you can find walking canes that convert into either a monoleg or tripod stool. I used one after a surgery that left me unable to stand for long periods of time, and it was a lifesaver. Mine ran about $30 dollars or so and was quite sturdy.

 

Whether HAL would allow it or not at the muster station I'm not sure; it takes up no more room a person standing, though. What can they say? Stand up straight? (Don't slouch? Wash behind your ears?)

 

I used mine on a trip whenever I had to give my back a rest, and it was great.

[chengkp75]

Muster drills reduce chaos in the event of an abandon ship emergency. I have been through enough to witness guests yakking away while cabins are called, guests not realizing the number on their sail and sign card is their muster station, and general grumbling.

 

Of course the majority behave quite well.

 

Plart of the problem on the Concordia was the delay boarding the boats until the muster roll had been completed. I hope there is never another similar emergency and that people talking, or being at the wrong muster station do not delay the timely loading of the lifeboats.

 

I wonder if staying hydrated would help with the fainting and heatstroke. Alcohol might be avoided until after the drill.

 

No, the problem on the Concordia was not that there was a delay in boarding the boats while the roll was called. The problem was that the announcement to go to the muster stations was not made for one hour after the ship hit the rock. If it had been called immediately after the Captain was notified the ship was flooding (about 2 minutes after the strike), then the passengers would be standing by and ready an hour later when he finally decided to go to the boats.

 

From the Italian government report on the Concordia, of the 23 lifeboats launched (out of 26), and 6 liferafts (out of 69), these carried 3010 passengers to shore, in other words were at 81% capacity. Given the inexcusable delay in mustering, right before the ship grounded and started to list, and the fact that the Captain declared "abandon ship" which means both passengers and crew are to leave (passengers should always be well clear of the ship before the crew are sent to their abandon ship stations), causing even more confusion, this shows that the crew did a pretty good job in loading the boats.

[SeaBands]

lowered the anchor about 11 pm. The solution was to send all the passengers to their muster station rather than just looking at the video to identify the culprit. That made for a very unhappy passenger (like 1200).There was no emergency that required a muster.

[Topsham]

 

What Topsham was saying, I believe, is that your attitude that there should be nothing anywhere that is mandatory on my vacation is wrong.

 

 

Thanks Cheng.

 

I have a short fuse with people that do not try to understand the point of Emergency Drills. It is for their own benefit and it is their own sorry backside that will be need saving by someone else!

 

Stephen

[RMLincoln]

I think education, education and education are the top three essentials for emergency preparedness. I like that HAL communicates emergency procedures in three ways:

 

1. The signage on the back of the cabin door

2. The videos playing on the cabin TV

3. The muster drill with demonstration on how to don the lifevest

 

I prefer the video being played at the muster drill (not available on HAL ships, yet) as people tend to really pay attention to videos - notice how attentive people are on airplanes when the emergency video is shown vs. the flight attendants'' demos - I think it's our culture so good to take advantage of that. m--

[Topsham]

Recent cruise in SAGA SAPPHIRE:

 

Every Daily News under TV Entertainment:

 

CHANNEL 1 - SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS DVD

 

 

This DVD plays run for approximately 15 to 20 minutes. It plays continuously... for the entire cruise.... for 35 days.

 

 

It covers many aspects of shipboard life:

 

1. Introduction by the Captain and Safety Officer.

2. The Muster Drill

3. How to put on a lifejackets.

4. What to wear in an emergency.... clothing, shoes etc

5. To remember to bring medication.

6. Warning about fire

7. What to do if you discover a fire and how to activate the alarm.

8. Fire Doors. How to open and close fire doors if you are trapped.

9. Low level lighting.

10. Launching lifeboats.

11. Use of tenders... safety when use of tenders

12. Watertight doors

13 Safety when going ashore

14. Gangways

etc etc

 

it goes on... excellent footage. Leave you no doubt about what to expect and why.

 

Probably the best safety instruction I have ever seen on a passenger ship.

 

No way will anyone understand half of what is happened... but if you watch it for a few minutes each day.... by the end of the cruise you are at least, 'informed'.

[galensgrl]

Thanks Cheng.

 

I have a short fuse with people that do not try to understand the point of Emergency Drills. It is for their own benefit and it is their own sorry backside that will be need saving by someone else!

 

Stephen

 

As tiresome and boring as muster drills can be, I still agree with you. I'd rather know where to go than not in case of an emergency at sea. I know it boils down to "Come to this spot, be quiet and pay attention." Doesn't seem like much but I am convinced that in case of the emergency we hope never happens it could save our lives.

 

Lorie

Edited January 28, 2016 by galensgrl

[Lizzie68]

Because the drill was not held at the official muster stations, the Captain had to submit a "Non-conformity Report" to both shoreside staff, for their post-approval, and into the ship's records for the ISM auditors to review, with the reasons for the non-conformity. You are not allowed to use non-conformity reports to regularly bypass company or regulatory requirements, and if there are too many NCR's on file, the ISM auditing authority can require significant remediation measures (additional training of officers and crew, more shoreside oversight of operations, etc.) or even pull the ISM certificate which would stop a ship from sailing.

 

If I am reading this right, you make it sound like it is a long and onerous process for pre-approval to hold the drill inside. And yet in the instance I read about, the captain made the decision due to bad weather. So then he is subject to retraining or reprimand for making such a decision?

[chengkp75]

If I am reading this right, you make it sound like it is a long and onerous process for pre-approval to hold the drill inside. And yet in the instance I read about, the captain made the decision due to bad weather. So then he is subject to retraining or reprimand for making such a decision?

 

No, as I said, the company usually gives post approval, if this is allowed in their ISM system. If not, he will need to call the office and get permission beforehand. Either way, he has to file a non-conformity report stating that something was done in violation of the ISM code, but this report can be filed after the fact, stating that approval was made by shore staff in whatever method or timing the ISM code requires. This non-conformity report then starts a long and tedious trek back and forth between various offices ashore and the ship, each person called for in the ISM to comment must make comments/approval before the incident is completed and filed. Each company's ISM code is different, mainly in details, within a broad outline from the IMO.