Oosterdam dining time changes for this week

[Ziggy7]

That creates an unhappy atmosphere and while he might begrudingly grant our request, we will now be dealing with hard feelings. Why should we (or any guest) be put in that circumstance because of HAL's hijinx that ultimately are at our expense.

Better yet, why would you pay to be put in that stressful position! I agree, if they cant accomidate us then we will go elsewhere!

[AirGorilla]

We've sailed 4 times w/Crystal in the last 18 months, and they have quickly become our favorite line, with their overall food and dining service being one of the main reasons. They truly excel when it comes to the traditional dining room experience. Yes, their fares are higher, but we've come to discover our overall vacation expense (when you factor in your shipboard spending) is much the same in the end compared to mass market cruising. This is due to substantial shipboard credits, travel agents prepaying gratuities, numerous complimentary cocktail parties, etc.

 

If fine dining on the high seas is your cup of tea, I can heartily recommend Crystal.

I totally agree, BEAV!! Crystal is our favorite line also. We've been on two of their cruises, and have a third on booked for 2006. That said, we also cruise other lines, the two most recent being RCCL and HAL.

 

I cannot understand some folks' reluctance to give Crystal a try, other than the perception of higher prices. But, IMHO, Crystal is well-worth it. And the service, in all areas, is simply tip-notch.

[AirGorilla]

Speaking only for myself.....

 

[

We have personal reasons for not caring to try Crystal. We'll stop cruising before we'll cruise Crystal.

 

C'mon!! A statement like this begs for an explanation of what you have HEARD about Crystal that would put it in such a negative light for you.

 

Inquiring minds want to know!!

 

Happy sailing!!

[Atomica]

I'm honestly really surprised that HAL is still trying this. Understandably, part of being a successful company is adapting to changes in the industry, but also recognizing your core demographic is important.

 

The majority of people who take a HAL cruise are looking for the traditional cruise experience that they offer. I think it's great they're reaching out to younger cruisers, but no line can be all things to all people. If I want open seating, I can take NCL.

 

It will be interesting to see what people post here & what sort of comment cards they get after the sailing. Personally I wouldn't want to be the 'guinea pig' after paying a lot of $$$ to get the cruise experience I thought I'd be getting...

[RevNeal]

I have received an e-mail response to my question regarding this dining test and wether it will be implemented on the Oosterdam when I board for my cruise in January.

 

Here is the e-mail:

 

Dear Dr. Neal,

 

Thank you for writing concerning the Dining Times Test on the Oosterdam. Currently we are implementing "Leisure Dining" on a trial basis on the ms Oosterdam only. We have designed Leisure Dining Service to provide our guests with that extra flexibility that we all want on our vacations. Simply stated, Leisure Dining Service means not having to always show up at the Vista Dining Room at a specific time. Instead, we have created two dining windows which guests can use as they please. For those guests who had confirmed dining times of either 5:45 p.m. or 6:15 p.m., they may now come to the Vista Dining Room at any time between 5:30 and 6:00 p.m. We do request that they arrive no later than 6:00 p.m. For those guests who had confirmed dining times of either 8:00 p.m. or 8:30 p.m., they may now come to the Vista Dining Room at any time between 7:45 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. This is truly leisure at its finest. No one has to make a special reservation for a certain time. Furthermore, the table previously reserved for guests will still be their assigned table, no matter when they choose to dine during these time periods.

 

If guests have questions, our Dining Room Staff will be available during embarkation from 1:00p.m. until 4:00p.m. outside the Explorer's Lounge on Deck Two.

 

We are still taking feedback from guests, and, again, the Leisure Dining concept is being offered on a trial basis on the ms Oosterdam only. We have not been advised of how the dining will be run in on the ms Oosterdam for future voyages, such as on your voyage with on the 6th of

January of next year.

 

Your feedback has been noted and we appreciate you taking the time to

express your opinion. We wish you a most enjoyable experience onboard

the beautiful ms Oosterdam and thank you for again choosing Holland America Line.

 

Kind regards,

 

As can be seen from the above outlined conditions, it would appear that the dining concept is as I suspected it would be: it's essentially the Cunard pattern; we will have assigned tables, but are free to come within a range of time. Hence ... if I come to eat at my assigned table at 8:30 pm and find that my table-mates began before me at 7:45 pm -- and are, hence, already eating their entree -- I'm SOL. I'll be eating out of step with them, and probably having my entree alone. :(

 

Of course, if we can get an agreement from everyone at the table to come at the same time during the nights that they plan to eat in the main dining room -- i.e., 8 or 8:30 -- then everything is fine. But how does one do that without being rude and saying "Hey, bub, make sure you're here at 8:30 or I'll seen Tre over to your cabin to twist your elbows."

 

I don't like it, and don't see the purpose in this "Leisure Dining" ... unless it's to soften us up for a major change that would entail something like open seating "Freestyle" ? Oh, and the term is annoying too ... I can see the jean-and-t-shirt crowd thinking that it means "casual" regardless of the dress code! :mad:

[RuthC]

But Greg, from what I read in another post it's more of a "modified Cunard" in that the Maitre 'd can re-assign at will so an entire table is at the same point.

It gets worserer and worserer. :(

[RevNeal]

But Greg, from what I read in another post it's more of a "modified Cunard" in that the Maitre 'd can re-assign at will so an entire table is at the same point.

 

Right, which does not match what Rose said. Frankly, I'm frustrated by the poor response. What was described is not how it would appear to be applied, and if that's the case HAL has a SERIOUS communication problem (in multiple directions). :( :mad:

[BEAV]

I totally agree, BEAV!! Crystal is our favorite line also. We've been on two of their cruises, and have a third on booked for 2006. That said, we also cruise other lines, the two most recent being RCCL and HAL.

 

 

Although Crystal is our favorite, we sail other lines as well. Talk about diversity...we sailed NCL, then six days later back-to-back Crystal and HAL!

[BJane]

Am I missing something in all the nonsense? I can recall many of our waiters asking everyone at the table to please be on time so that he could get his orders in to the kitchen in a timely manner. Granted, most of these memories are from RCI, but it can't be too different on HAL. With this new "system" it seems as though the waiters will be constantly running back and forth to the kitchen as their tables fill up. But wait, there's more! Didn't I read that there is the possibility of not getting your assigned table so that this very thing will not occur? Maybe it's time for me to go back to driving trips where my rental car automatically stops at every Cracker Barrel it finds!

[RevNeal]

singerbj,

 

Yes, indeed ... excellent observation. If we passengers don't like the change, the staff must really be unhappy.

[zcat]

My cruise Documentation for the Oosterdam, departing January 7, 2006, has printed on the top: "CONFIRMED DINING: MAIN LOWER" and the "Know Before You Go" booklet clearly states the 4 dining times.

 

I have drafted an email enquiring about the dining time situation and asking, SPECIFICALLY, if there is any dining time experimentation planned for the week of my cruise. If the response back is that there is no such experimentation planned and/or they don't know what I am talking about, I am going to print out their response and take it with me. IF such experimentation occurs, I'm going to raise holy hell with the Hotel Manager and DEMAND that my negative feedback be channeled back to Seattle, immediately.

 

Yes ... yes ... I most certainly KNOW that such won't do any good to stop the stupid experiment, but perhaps ... just perhaps ... enough passengers asserting enough EXTREME DISPLEASURE with this crappy treatment and these stupid experiments will eventually put a stop to it spreading around the line.

 

Kruise needs to figure out that he's with HAL now, and he can stop trying to remake the line into the visage of one of its competitors.

We are with you 100%. We have many many cruises with HAL over many years.

[zcat]

And I for one know that my husband would be furious at being seated with other "friends that he has yet to meet." He insists on our having a table for two and that is that! We have had some most unpleasant experiences and he just feel that he is on the cruise to enjoy the dining experience' date=' and if he doesn't want to gab with a bunch of people, he doesn't have to![/quote']

We have shared a table with others - this is not for us. When we go to a up scale restaurant we NEVER are asked to share a table. I WILL NOT EVER "SHARE" again. We always get a table for two.

[jhannah]

Well, I don't think their explanation works. It sure seems you're right that some at one's table will be having entrees by the time others are just getting their appetizers. And the Maitre d' could move you to seat you at a table with others all at the same time? Gee, that's not getting the assigned table/mates at all!

[RevNeal]

I'm in the process of drafting back a response, including this issue that wasn't addressed in the first response. We'll see if they'll comment. :)

[RuthC]

I'm starting to feel a wee bit sorry for the folks in Seattle who have to deal with the telephone calls and e-mails---they're not the ones who drafted this idiotic scheme.

And the genuises on the top floors don't have to clean up the messes they are making.

Not fair.

[patval]

RevNeal I am not sure if this would help but maybepass your orginal letter out to the other higher ups like Brendan K. Vierra who is in charge of Guest Programs maybe he can be of help to you.

 

 

Paul

[RevNeal]

Here is my follow up response and request for clarification:

 

Thank you so much for your prompt response. I appreciate the attention you are giving to this matter.

 

There is one point, however, which your e-mail about the Dining Time Test failed to address. Specifically, that although tables are assigned, they are not in any way guaranteed. According to the information being handed out aboard the Oosterdam, the Maitre' D has the descretion to seat passengers with others arriving at the same time, so as to keep everyone being served the same course at the same time. Is this correct, and if it is how can this be reconciled with your assertion: "the table previously reserved for guests will still be their assigned table, no matter when they choose to dine during these time periods."?

 

Again, thank you for your attention.

[RevNeal]

RevNeal I am not sure if this would help but maybepass your orginal letter out to the other higher ups like Brendan K. Vierra who is in charge of Guest Programs maybe he can be of help to you.

 

Possibly, though the Vice President of Public Relations is rather "high up" in the "Executive Team" and, simply put, a person responsible for dealing with relating Line policy to the public. I shall wait a bit to see how the responses go to my latest follow up request for clarification. If the response isn't satisfactory, I may follow up with physical mail to Ms. Vierra or, perhaps, Mr. Kruse himself. We'll see.

[RevNeal]

I'm starting to feel a wee bit sorry for the folks in Seattle who have to deal with the telephone calls and e-mails---they're not the ones who drafted this idiotic scheme.

 

I'm not feeling in the least bit sorry for Ms. Abello, whose job it is -- as Vice President of Public Relations -- to deal with such matters. And, being on the "Executive Team," she had a role to play in the planning of this idiotic scheme.

:cool:

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I to am a bit upset but.....they main problem looks to be for those that choose Late Seating or aka Main Seating. We always choose to eat at Early Lower 6:15 seating. While yes it is earlier than I like it looks like the problem with tablemates will not be that big of deal and we should be able to have our requested table and same tablemates every night. My guess is this will not trickle down to the other ships and they will play with this a while on the Oosterdam. The only other ships they could possibly decide to do this with is the Zuirderdam and the Westerdam while they are doing the Caribbean. I think HAL feels that the Vista Class is drawing a younger new to cruising crowd and want to try to please them so they will return. I will agree that the Vista Class does draw far more younger and newer HAL passengers. If this does become successful on the Oosterdam and they keep it for the Oosterdam they will just need to advise those booking that if they want traditional seating they need to request Early.

[Two@Sea]

 

Excuse me, Rev, I hesitate to offend... but if this ridiculous attempt continues it might eventually be necessary to follow up with physical "maul" instead of "mail."

 

Before our first cruise, I was very concerned about dining with others. I dreaded the experience, and was certain it would be an ordeal. Naturally, within a few minutes of our first dinner I was totally engaged with several lovely people I never would have met otherwise. Dining with the same tablemates each evening has since created some of our best cruise memories.

 

Our first HAL cruise will be on the Westerdam in two weeks, and we hope to enjoy it enough to sail with HAL again, but a change to "leisure dining" will force us back to Celebrity... quickly!

[RevNeal]

It would appear that my e-mail has been directed to the Director of Ships Services, who is directly responsible for implementing this experiment and the future change. I've just had a few exchanges with him, and I have more information on the process and what's going to happen. Here's his first e-mail:

 

Good Day Dr. Neal,

 

I want to make myself available to answer any additional questions you may have regarding the Leisure Dining Service that is currently under test aboard the Oosterdam. Please feel free to direct your questions to me regarding this issue or any others in regards to the overall direction of our onboard services and guest experiences.

 

I will take the answer one step further, to explain that we had an initial test of one sailing in October that went well and provided us with some very valuable comments from the guests onboard. Based on the direction given to us by our guests, we have modified the concept and will run the program as you describe below for the four sailings between the Thanksgiving and Christmas sailings. The two sailings at the end of the year will run the current standard of four seating times.

 

After the New Year, it is not yet decided exactly how the dining times will be operated. That decision rests largely on the feedback gathered from the guests onboard the four sailings and their direct feedback to us. Please understand that we all agree with you that our dining service and our traditions set Holland America Line apart from our competitors. We feel that it provides us with a competitive edge, and we also know that we have gotten there by listening to our guests. Remember not long ago, we introduced the four seating concept based on similar guest requests and I believe that it is now expected as a "tradition" from our loyal Mariner Society.

 

As a multiple time Mariner and loyal HAL fan, I can appreciate the feelings you have regarding our traditions and services. Your feedback is very important to us and we fully intend that we can meet and exceed your needs and expectations. Your booking record indicates that you are currently confirmed for Main Lower dining and have requested a table for 8. I do not show that you are currently cross referenced to dine with any other specific guests.

 

Given this information, you will be assigned at a large table with other guests who were confirmed in the Main Lower dining. Tables numbers are assigned based on a variety of items, so I am unable to guarantee the actual table size. In general the priority is for groups and families who have cross reference information entered first and then based on the "booking" date. So given that information, you will likely be given a table of 6,8, or 10 with other guests who have received a Main Lower confirmation.

 

This means that if we do run our Leisure Dining Service program on your cruise, all of your tablemates will also have the same expectation you have and plan to arrive at the dining room at 8:30 on the first night. Alternatively, they may have plans for the Pinnacle Grill or Lido dining which would have no impact from our Leisure Dining Service program. In reality, the Leisure Dining Service will make very little difference on the first night, as guests will have the similar or same experience as they were expecting based on the four seating concept we have used the past couple of years.

 

Where this will get interesting and unique to each table is how guests react after the first night. We are simply offering them the choice that they have been asking for from us. If a table decides that they would like to eat a little earlier or a little later, then we will accommodate that request. If some guests at that table want to eat at the Pinnacle Grill or the Lido on a particular night, and someone from another dining changes their plans and arrives at 8:30 instead of their normal slot and you have 2 empty seats at your table, then they can eat at the large table in those empty seats. For that matter, you have the flexibility to change your plans as well. However, if you want to eat at the same table at 8:30 every night as per the "traditional" experience, then we will still be able to accommodate that request as well.

 

In theory, we feel that we are now able to accommodate those who want the "traditional" experience and we are able to accommodate those who would like to adjust their plans on a nightly basis.

 

Should we decide to run this program on your cruise, I look forward to hearing back from you directly regarding how it impacted your cruise experience. Meanwhile, please feel free to direct any questions to me.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Joe Xxxx

Manager, Ship Services

Holland America Line

 

I've hidden his last name for his protection. I hope y'all understand. Thoughts, anyone?

 

Here was my reply:

 

Dear Joe,

 

Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate the time you took to write to me and to amplify the explanation of the Dining Time Test and how it can be expected to function and its duration. I also appreciate your attention to the specifics of my own booking. Relative to my situation, I don't much care if the table is 6, 8, or 10 ... any of those options is perfectly fine with me. When I cruise alone I prefer having a big table of people to meet and with whom to interact over the course of the cruise; when traveling with family (as I did just a couple of weeks ago on the Westerdam) I enjoy having either a table for just us, or sharing a larger table with another group of passengers. What I dislike is being "singled out" or left alone to eat most of my dinner by myself because my table-mates all ate at 7:45 pm, but I came at 9 pm ... and I don't enjoy being shuffled around from table to table as if it were open-seating for Lunch. Hence, this idea of having a wide period of time open for dinner gives me a moment of pause.

 

Another issue which comes to mind about this entire undertaking is the nomenclature which HAL has chosen to use. Given the propensity of some passengers to disregard the evening Dress Code, does it really seem advisable to use a term like "Leisure Dining"? To put this succinctly, it could be misunderstood as meaning that casual clothing would be welcome in the main dining room during "Leisure Dining" even on Formal Nights. While I do not especially like the sound of this new dining time scheme, I would suggest a different terminology be applied ... something like "Flexible Time Dining" rather than "Leisure."

 

Again, thank you for your attention on this issue.

Regards,

 

--

Greg+

Dr. Gregory S. Neal

Senior Pastor

First United Methodist Church

101 South Kaufman Street

Seagoville, Texas 75159

Office: (972) 287-2228 * Fax: (972) 287-1308

RevNeal@aol.com

 

Rector

Grace Incarnate Ministries

http://www.RevNeal.org

 

And his response to me:

 

Dr. Neal,

 

Thank you for the input and for putting this theory to the test. Much of this will be answered over the next 4 cruises as we come across some real life situations. Throughout the process we will be documenting specific situations that arise and the solutions used to make the optimal experience for all involved. In this way, we will be able to take some time after the 4 week test and put together some standard operating procedures. Then we can train our staff on it and then go back out with a further refined program for our dining.

 

For example, if a table for 4 is put together with 2 couples who do not know each other, and one of the couples elects to make Pinnacle Grill Reservations on formal night. How do we get in touch with the other couple at that table and ask them what time they will be arriving and whether they prefer to eat alone (more flexible timing) or have us sit a new couple with them who is more creative in their dining preference and looking to change up their plans and happens to dine at the same time with them?

 

Assuming you end up at a table for 8 that consists of a guest mix like 2 couples who do not know each other, and another couple traveling with their sister-in-law. It is quite conceivable that the scenario you describe below might take place. The question then will really be settled among you and your table mates and a discussion from one night to the next. In the example below, if you prefer to eat at 9:00 and the rest of your tablemates prefer to eat at 7:45, then a quick conversation with the head steward in your section and a night for him to compile all of his notes and we will search for like minded individuals as yourself who are eating at 9:00 and we can move all of you into a table based on the number of guests. Or conversely, maybe you decide after the first night that the conversation and new friendships are such that you would rather dine at 7:45 with these same guests because the relationship benefits over rule your desire to eat a little later.

 

As you can imagine, when we start naming off all of the "what-ifs" it becomes quite mind boggling. This is why we hire and train some of the best Dining Room Managers and Maitre d's that we can find.

 

Truthfully, we are trying to create an environment where our guests tell us what their dining will be like, rather than in the past where we would dictate to them. It is a customer first approach that should help us to cater to everyone's individual need. Of course, we have the reality of the situation where the dining room capacity is roughly half the ship capacity, so we will need to enforce some boundaries by which we can physically meet everyone's requests.

 

As you know, the dining situation on any cruise is one of the details that makes each one a unique experience. Any avid cruiser, myself included, has arrived to dinner on the first night and found that the situation for one reason or another is less than desirable. If we can adjust this for you and get you into the right situation to improve this after the first night, isn't it worth it to give this new program a chance? Conversely if everyone is happy and compatible at a table from night one, then its not broke and we do not intend to fix it.

 

As for the name of the program, I think you bring up a valid point. I was a bit disappointed on my last cruise with the number of men who chose to avoid the black tie experience on formal nights. Obviously being a Holland America employee for over 16 years, I am a bit of a traditionalist. However, I also recognize that there as many different tastes as there are people. All of our guests spend their hard earned money on a cruise and many save much of their expendable income for this experience. As this is still a test program and not yet a part of our services, our creative Marketing and Sales folks have not yet named it. I expect to have the question asked of me by them when this becomes official and I will be sure to include your opinion in my response.

 

My goal is to make sure that everyone is comfortable with our onboard services and I try to do that in both an inclusionary manner and a non-discriminatory manner. If you cruise with Holland America Line, I want you to have the memories and an experience of a lifetime. Whatever your request, if it is physically possible, my team in Ship Services will do their best to accommodate it. It is who we are and why we exist.

 

Again, I am looking forward to your further feedback and make myself available for any questions you might have.

 

Warmest Regards,

 

Joe Xxxx

Manager, Ship Services

Holland America Line

 

I am working on my response now, but I'll probably wait until tomorrow to send it. Thoughts?

[Two@Sea]

My initial thought is that none of the people attempting to make this plan work will ever need to politely try and ascertain when their tablemates intend to dine the next evening. They're leaving that awkward situation up to us.

 

My second thought is that if they are seriously trying to provide more "flexibility" to passengers they should have a "dining time selection" at booking. Tables could then be arranged for those who select 6:00, or 6:45, or 8:15 etc. It seems to me that would make passengers happy, and also allow servers to handle courses efficiently.

 

JM (not so) HO

Marsha

[arzz]

In HAL's first response they referred to the current 4 dining times as if they were resisted at first but now loved by HAL cruisers. It may be worthwhile to say that they are NOT loved by HAL regulars, rather they are TOLERATED. Many on line have pointed out that they would prefer to return to the old system of only two dining times and do not completely understand the advantages of the four dining times.

 

Just because we are not fleeing HAL at the moment does not mean that we like 4 dining times. They are merely acceptable. Leisure dining or whatever they choose to call it, however, could cause flight.

 

If the experiment works will it be on all ships or only the Osterdam? Since the demographic found on Vista ships for one week Caribbean sails is different than that found on R and S class ships, and even more different than that found on R and S class ships on longer cruises and non-Caribbean destinations -- how would an Osterdam trial have any real meaning to interpreting the response of those loyal HAL cruisers who travel the smaller ships and longer itineraries? I would hope that HAL does not assume that if a few Vista groups are OK with this that everyone would be OK with this. Different strokes for different folks please.

[Finnjet]

It seems it would be very disrtuptive to have people arriving over an hour time span for the late seating. Such coming and going reminds me more of a restaurant, not a dining room. Most of the comments posted in this thread are from experienced HAL cruisers. Just imagine how confusing it is for relative newbies, like myself!