New rules on visiting Cuba

[bcaha]

Been following this thread and want to suggest that anyone looking to tour privately reach out to Blexie and book a tour. You can print out a "confirmation" from your email or facebook. I reached him through facebook. We toured with his associate Roly, who was simply amazing and so much fun to hang out with for the day! See tripadvisor Havana Tours with Blexie.

[EatonDoolittle]

Melissd24: I guess I'm wondering who's policing this? Like is there someone recording the time we get off the ship and back on and then filling in whether we were on an official tour for that entire time?

 

In a word, no one.

 

I went in June; just after the first change decree, which if you read closely, is really not very different from this recent one. It just did not have the official listing of prohibited hotels, stores, and companies.

Americans are not allowed to do business with the Cuban government or military owned entities.

On FL Senator Marco Rubio's website he states that this is to drive more activity to individual Cuban people.

 

Anyway, back to the "policing" of this.

We were able to go on and off the ship freely, as many times as we wanted (it was an overnight). NO ONE from the ship asked where we were going or what we were doing. When we boarded, NO ONE asked where we had been. Just the crew member at the hand sanitizer machine saying welcome back.

 

You do go through Cuban passport control every time you go in and out, but they also DO NOT ask where you are going or what you have planned. They do not speak at all. You walk through the terminal and you are on the street. That's it.

 

I did have a private tour day 2, wandered out in the evening, and day 1 on my own, as did many others.

 

This has been my point all along, through all the new regulations panic. The Cuban people are thrilled to have tourists. I cannot fathom that RCCL, NCL, HAL, and all others will post a staffer on the gangway to say "Show me your papers!" . It's unimaginable. They all have much too much money invested in the Cuban itineraries to risk restricting the passengers.

I am going back in December of 2018, and am not at all concerned about upsetting #45, and I already plan on having a drink at Hotel Ambos Mundos, just becuse he says not to:D

 

And, if a US Treasury Agent shows up at my door in 3 years and says "Where were you on the afternoon of June 28, 2017?", I'll show him my email from the tour operator, and offer him a glass of fine Cuban rum.

 

This is a fabulous city and people. Do not let this political posturing scare you away from visiting.

[ranchette]

Old car tours

 

 

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I am also booked with Old car tours. When is your cruise?

[melissd24]

I am also booked with Old car tours. When is your cruise?

 

March 26 on RCC

[nicedream]

I went in June; just after the first change decree, which if you read closely, is really not very different from this recent one. It just did not have the official listing of prohibited hotels, stores, and companies.

Americans are not allowed to do business with the Cuban government or military owned entities.

 

If that's true, then I would agree that not much would change. But I've read in many sources that the new changes also include reverting the Obama-era rule that allowed people traveling under the person-to-person cultural exchange category to self-document (as opposed to traveling with a licensed tour company. This would be the biggest barrier to cruise travel, because this is the category of travel for virtually everyone on a cruise

 

Anyway, back to the "policing" of this.

We were able to go on and off the ship freely, as many times as we wanted (it was an overnight). NO ONE from the ship asked where we were going or what we were doing. When we boarded, NO ONE asked where we had been.

I just got back from a Cuban cruise last month, and this is true. But the cruise line *does* make you sign something at embarkation in which you certify that whatever you're doing in Cuba meets the legal requirements (At least RCCL did). So no, they aren't policing you every time you get off the ship to make sure that everything is legal because they already had you confirm that in order to go on the cruise.

 

You do go through Cuban passport control every time you go in and out, but they also DO NOT ask where you are going or what you have planned. They do not speak at all. You walk through the terminal and you are on the street. That's it.

This is true too, but I wouldn't expect Cuba to ask what you're going to do in the country. It's a US law, and they would have no interest in policing it.

 

I cannot fathom that RCCL, NCL, HAL, and all others will post a staffer on the gangway to say "Show me your papers!" . It's unimaginable. They all have much too much money invested in the Cuban itineraries to risk restricting the passengers.

 

At the very least they are going to continue to ensure that you sign something attesting to the legality of your activities, just to cover their own liability. But if person-to-person travel is restricted to approved tour operators only, I wouldn't be surprised to see the cruise lines require the purchase of an excursion or proof of one purchased independently. I just can't see them taking boatloads of people to Cuba who would then be subject to legal consequences when they return to the US - even if those passengers signed a statement saying they would be in compliance w/ the law. It would just be a PR nightmare for the cruise lines, and I'm sure they would also attract the attention of the State Department before too long due to being a conduit for so much illegal travel.

[Knighton]

Anyone having done a Cuba cruise before now wouldn't have been subjected to anything new, therefore what you did on your cruise before this week doesn't matter and doesn't apply to what is fact now. The announcement in June was accompanied by a qualifier that said it wouldn't take effect until Treasury and State could make the exact rules and announce them. I went in July and I did what I wanted. That has pretty much ceased as of Thursday. So, since Treasury announced Wednesday the 8th that they would take effect Thursday the 9th, that's when things changed. Anyone who booked before June 16th (the day the prez made the announcement) is off the hook and can freely self certify, so if you look at Royal Caribbeans sheet that's box 2. Anyone who booked after that and wants to do private tours has to use box 3 and the part of the list there that applies would probably be (this is verbatim from RCCL instructions on how to fill out the new certification):

 

• Support for the Cuban people. I am traveling to Cuba to engage with recognized human rights organizations,independent organizations designed to promote a rapid, peaceful transition to democracy, or individuals and non-governmentalorganizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba; AND my schedule of activitiesdoes not include free time or recreation in excess of that consistent with a full-time schedule. (31 C.F.R. § 515.574)

 

The part I made red and underlined is what makes most sense as an explanation for having a private tour. I think I said before, book a private tour show whoever wants to know on the ship your confirmation from the tour co. and if you really want to do other stuff on your own, I would just do it once your private tour is done. I'm pretty sure they won't let you back off the ship just to walk around.

 

Here's an idea. I would wait for reviews to come in from any Cuba cruises that started after Nov. 9th. They will be the first set of people that should be under the new rules.

[ranchette]

March 26 on RCC

We are going May 14th. on RCCL Please let me now how the tour worked out.

Jill

[jeffdal]

Thanks for your post. I am in slight panic because our booking for our November 20 sailing says June 16. So that probably means option 3 but I also read a posting (on a popular social media site) that unless you booked before June 16, you have to reserve an excursion with RCCL or you can't get off the ship (based on the poster's conversation with RCL). But option 3 people to people (and specifically Aiii under 515.574) Individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba; and

 

 

Anyone having done a Cuba cruise before now wouldn't have been subjected to anything new, therefore what you did on your cruise before this week doesn't matter and doesn't apply to what is fact now. The announcement in June was accompanied by a qualifier that said it wouldn't take effect until Treasury and State could make the exact rules and announce them. I went in July and I did what I wanted. That has pretty much ceased as of Thursday. So, since Treasury announced Wednesday the 8th that they would take effect Thursday the 9th, that's when things changed. Anyone who booked before June 16th (the day the prez made the announcement) is off the hook and can freely self certify, so if you look at Royal Caribbeans sheet that's box 2. Anyone who booked after that and wants to do private tours has to use box 3 and the part of the list there that applies would probably be (this is verbatim from RCCL instructions on how to fill out the new certification):

 

• Support for the Cuban people. I am traveling to Cuba to engage with recognized human rights organizations,independent organizations designed to promote a rapid, peaceful transition to democracy, or individuals and non-governmentalorganizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba; AND my schedule of activitiesdoes not include free time or recreation in excess of that consistent with a full-time schedule. (31 C.F.R. § 515.574)

 

The part I made red and underlined is what makes most sense as an explanation for having a private tour. I think I said before, book a private tour show whoever wants to know on the ship your confirmation from the tour co. and if you really want to do other stuff on your own, I would just do it once your private tour is done. I'm pretty sure they won't let you back off the ship just to walk around.

 

Here's an idea. I would wait for reviews to come in from any Cuba cruises that started after Nov. 9th. They will be the first set of people that should be under the new rules.

Edited November 11, 2017 by jeffdal

[Knighton]

Thanks for your post. I am in slight panic because our booking for our November 20 sailing says June 16. So that probably means option 3 but I also read a posting (on a popular social media site) that unless you booked before June 16, you have to reserve an excursion with RCCL or you can't get off the ship (based on the poster's conversation with RCL). But option 3 people to people (and specifically Aiii under 515.574) Individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba; and

 

According to RCL website, you're box 3. It specifically says "before June 16th", and since you're booking date is June 16th you're under the new stuff. I looked all over, even tried to make a mock booking, and there's nothing on their website that either says anything about or tries to force me to make a shore excursion through them. I would do a private tour.

[melissd24]

According to RCL website, you're box 3. It specifically says "before June 16th", and since you're booking date is June 16th you're under the new stuff. I looked all over, even tried to make a mock booking, and there's nothing on their website that either says anything about or tries to force me to make a shore excursion through them. I would do a private tour.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

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[jeffdal]

I agree.

 

 

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I could go for religious reasons. :evilsmile: Option 3. 515.565

[islandwoman]

According to RCL website, you're box 3. It specifically says "before June 16th", and since you're booking date is June 16th you're under the new stuff. I looked all over, even tried to make a mock booking, and there's nothing on their website that either says anything about or tries to force me to make a shore excursion through them. I would do a private tour.

Thank you for posting about the information to be found on the RCL website. Although I'm not sailing RCL, I found the information to be very informative.

[dwgreenlee]

I would encourage everyone to carefully examine the passenger certification form found at: http://www.royalcaribbean.com/cuba/faq/

 

With some limited exceptions, RCI now requires passengers to take a full day RCI shore excursion. The policies go into effect with passengers boarding Empress of The Seas on Sunday 12 Nov for a Havana one day port call on Tuesday 14 Nov.

 

It appears that RCI intends to enforce the sanction requirements at boarding in Miami. It is not clear that there is even an option to remain onboard in Cuba without participating in the RCI people-to-people program - unless some other exception to the sanctions apply.

 

With regards to who is going to enforce passenger compliance - that will be the ship/line. Any foreign flag ship found to be transporting passengers or cargo in violation of the sanctions may be banned from all US ports for 180 days - expect the ship/line to protect themselves.

[jeffdal]

I would encourage everyone to carefully examine the passenger certification form found at: http://www.royalcaribbean.com/cuba/faq/

 

 

 

With some limited exceptions, RCI now requires passengers to take a full day RCI shore excursion. The policies go into effect with passengers boarding Empress of The Seas on Sunday 12 Nov for a Havana one day port call on Tuesday 14 Nov.

 

 

 

It appears that RCI intends to enforce the sanction requirements at boarding in Miami. It is not clear that there is even an option to remain onboard in Cuba without participating in the RCI people-to-people program - unless some other exception to the sanctions apply.

 

 

 

With regards to who is going to enforce passenger compliance - that will be the ship/line. Any foreign flag ship found to be transporting passengers or cargo in violation of the sanctions may be banned from all US ports for 180 days - expect the ship/line to protect themselves.

 

 

 

But RCL doesn’t just have full day they have some that are shorter.

 

 

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[dwgreenlee]

But RCL doesn’t just have full day they have some that are shorter.

 

 

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RCI now requires that you certify, at boarding, that: "While in Cuba, I plan to exclusively participate in a full day program of people-to-people educational activities offered by Royal Caribbean (31 C.F.R. § 515.565(b))." - unless you meet one of the other sanction exceptions. If this program does not exist it is going to be a pretty empty ship.

[jeffdal]

RCI now requires that you certify, at boarding, that: "While in Cuba, I plan to exclusively participate in a full day program of people-to-people educational activities offered by Royal Caribbean (31 C.F.R. § 515.565(b))." - unless you meet one of the other sanction exceptions. If this program does not exist it is going to be a pretty empty ship.

 

 

 

But when you go and look at the shore excursions there are some that that are not full day just a couple hours.

 

 

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[dwgreenlee]

But when you go and look at the shore excursions there are some that that are not full day just a couple hours.

 

 

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On that point all I can offer is speculation. I note RCI is currently changing their Cuba policies in real time so I would speculate that, by the time the ship reaches Cuba on 14 Nov, that the required full day programs will be available, if not, I would speculate that they will cancel the port call.

 

I hope some of the passengers will report what actually happens.

[Knighton]

Dwgreenlee, I HAVE carefully examined the form and I would suggest that YOU please read the document more carefully!! There are 4 choices to choose from. Only ONE is the one where you are ok with doing only royal Caribbean's offerings and it is by no means being forced on people as the only choice. Box 2 is for those booked before June 16 going on private tours. Box 3 is for those booked after June 16 who don't want to be forced to exclusively use royals excursions. The one in box 3's list that applies is "support for the Cuban people". More specifically, "I am traveling to Cuba to engage with individuals and non government organizations that promote independent activities intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba.". All of this is listed in the FAQs you are suggesting everyone should read. Have you read them? The exact form is there for download as well as specific directions for it in a separate download. There is nothing, I repeat nothing anywhere that says the only choice is to use their excursions. And if you read the FAQs carefully they also state that you may stay on the boat and never get off, and they will not charge you the visa fee.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Knighton

[dwgreenlee]

Dwgreenlee, I HAVE carefully examined the form and I would suggest that YOU please read the document more carefully!! There are 4 choices to choose from. Only ONE is the one where you are ok with doing only royal Caribbean's offerings and it is by no means being forced on people as the only choice. Box 2 is for those booked before June 16 going on private tours. Box 3 is for those booked after June 16 who don't want to be forced to exclusively use royals excursions. The one in box 3's list that applies is "support for the Cuban people". More specifically, "I am traveling to Cuba to engage with individuals and non government organizations that promote independent activities intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba.". All of this is listed in the FAQs you are suggesting everyone should read. Have you read them? The exact form is there for download as well as specific directions for it in a separate download. There is nothing, I repeat nothing anywhere that says the only choice is to use their excursions. And if you read the FAQs carefully they also state that you may stay on the boat and never get off, and they will not charge you the visa fee.

 

I noted there were exceptions to the full day program requirement and encouraged readers to examine the documents for themselves. Most passengers will use the people-to-people exemption under the educational category - but there are 11 other categories and the grandfather clause for folks that booked before June 16.

 

If you are going to strike off on your own you should also visit the Office of Foreign Asset Control, US Treasury Cuba sanction page at: https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/pages/cuba.aspx as you will be personally responsible for complying with the brand new regulation of not "engaging with" the entries on the "Cuba Restricted List" (which includes many hotels and other tourist entries) as well as complying with a host of other older regulations. This site also provides more detailed information about requirements for meeting the other 11 exemption catagories criteria - such as the one you cite.

 

The note about the visa fee is not germane since the discussion is on compliance with US Government embargo regulations not Cuban Government entry (a.k.a. Visa) requirements. If you do not get off the ship you do not need a visa but it is not clear that staying on the ship will meet the embargo regulations.

 

RCI will have the first ship to visit Cuba - from a US Port - since the new regulations went into effect. Oceania Insignia will be the second. I hope passengers will report their experiences with these new and confusing regulations.

Edited November 12, 2017 by dwgreenlee

[islandwoman]

Dwgreenlee, The one in box 3's list that applies is "support for the Cuban people". More specifically, "I am traveling to Cuba to engage with individuals and non government organizations that promote independent activities intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba."

I too thought that I might be able to visit Cuba under "Support for the Cuban People" . Then I read the "Certification Instructions" that are also on the RCL site. The link is in the FAQ, just under the "Travel Certification" link.

 

Here's what the "Support for Cuban People" section says:

 

"Support for the Cuban people.

I am traveling to Cuba to engage with recognized human rights organizations,independent organizations designed to promote a rapid, peaceful transition to democracy,or individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba; AND my schedule of activities does not include free time or recreation in excess of that consistent with a full-time schedule.(31 C.F.R. § 515.574)"

Also the Certification Instructions for the rest of the "General License Categories" look to me to be more restrictive than they at first appear.

[Knighton]

I too thought that I might be able to visit Cuba under "Support for the Cuban People" . Then I read the "Certification Instructions" that are also on the RCL site. The link is in the FAQ, just under the "Travel Certification" link.

 

Here's what the "Support for Cuban People" section says:

 

"Support for the Cuban people.

I am traveling to Cuba to engage with recognized human rights organizations,independent organizations designed to promote a rapid, peaceful transition to democracy,or individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba; AND my schedule of activities does not include free time or recreation in excess of that consistent with a full-time schedule.(31 C.F.R. § 515.574)"

Also the Certification Instructions for the rest of the "General License Categories" look to me to be more restrictive than they at first appear.

Yes. I've been quoting that. I shortened it because what's after "or" is what applies, specifically "individuals" "that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba". If I'm hiring an individual to show me important historical sites, then I am strengthening civil society by keeping him employed, right? That way he's not on the street being some kind of anti government radical. Sheesh I can't believe we have to go this deep in the weeds on this.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Knighton

[melissd24]

‘Individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba’

 

That line alone appears to be a safety net for those booking third party excursions. After the excursion seems to be unclear. According to Emilio at RCC, you will have to go back to the boat, however how will it be enforced and what will happen if you don’t?

 

 

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[islandwoman]

I shortened it because what's after "or" is what applies, specifically "individuals" "that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba". If I'm hiring an individual to show me important historical sites, then I am strengthening civil society by keeping him employed, right? That way he's not on the street being some kind of anti government radical.

I'll be interested to read how your plan works out.

[alfaeric]

‘Individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba’

 

That line alone appears to be a safety net for those booking third party excursions. After the excursion seems to be unclear. According to Emilio at RCC, you will have to go back to the boat, however how will it be enforced and what will happen if you don’t?

 

 

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One needs to be clear, unless there are treasury agents on the ship, RCI's ship are not US entities. So they have no real authority to enforce these rules.

 

Anyway, about the time after the tour- then the question is- what is a "full time schedule?" When the ship is in port for only 12 hours, does that mean all the "full time" requirements become 4 instead of 8? And if you go into a privately owned restaurant, does that also add time to the full time schedule- since you are supporting individuals? (that interpretation has been mentioned by Rubio) That goes for any CUC souvenir shop, too.

[Knighton]

 

It appears that RCI intends to enforce the sanction requirements at boarding in Miami. It is not clear that there is even an option to remain onboard in Cuba without participating in the RCI people-to-people program - unless some other exception to the sanctions apply..

 

Yes it is germane because here's where you yourself mention staying on board and it is patently false. The rcl site clearly states that if you wish to stay on board you will not be charged the visa fee, therefore there IS an option to do just that. I really don't know why anyone would bother going on the cruise at all if they weren't getting off in Havana, but there you go.