BA news in NY

[MsTanyaNYC]

I don’t need a Harvard law degree, never took maritime law 101 or read cruise ship engineering for dummies like some of you all to know that riding out that storm was done for financial reasons over safety. The lack of communication was also unacceptable and someone has to be held accountable. Full refunds for all!!! Lol

 

 

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[CruisingUS]

It is, in fact, true. I typically do not discuss my educational background because I find people make all sorts of incorrect assumptions about me when they do (call it some long unresolved cognitive dissonance [emoji6]).

 

As for the disclaimer, I honestly never gave it any thought until someone commented on one of my thoughts and I thought I should set the record straight. Just trying to provide another point of view.

 

 

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i have tons of lawyer friends and they plaster disclaimers left and rt....even when discussing things casually with acquaintances irl. granted they are younger.

 

now, i didn't go to harvard (yet ;) ), but i don't flash my credentials either. it does bother me when ppl introduce me and immediately name my profession. ppl can put me on a pedestal (which is weird) or immediately go nuts b/c they have an axe to grind with others in my profession whom they have worked with (which is very annoying b/c they are trying to prove how i am wrong). a woman, no joke, walked up to a group of my peers and showed us pictures of her daughter and son and asked us if we would go on a date with them. super awkward. :') ppl need to calm down.

 

Do you think ppl could get compensation for emotional damages for adjustment disorder/PTSD (for bills if they go to the doc, therapy, and etc.) or punitive damages? or would that all be done via arbitration?

Edited January 9, 2018 by CruisingUS

[e150club]

And the original topic was ?

[Enavigo]

i have tons of lawyer friends and they plaster disclaimers left and rt....even when discussing things casually with acquaintances irl. granted they are younger.

 

now, i didn't go to harvard (yet ;) ), but i don't flash my credentials either. it does bother me when ppl introduce me and immediately name my profession. ppl can put me on a pedestal (which is weird) or immediately go nuts b/c they have an axe to grind with others in my profession whom they have worked with (which is very annoying b/c they are trying to prove how i am wrong). a woman, no joke, walked up to a group of my peers and showed us pictures of her daughter and son and asked us if we would go on a date with them. super awkward. :') ppl need to calm down.

 

Do you think ppl could get compensation for emotional damages for adjustment disorder/PTSD (for bills if they go to the doc, therapy, and etc.) or punitive damages? or would that all be done via arbitration?

 

 

 

I really don't know the answer to that one, and it is a great question (because you are asking what does it mean to cause "injury" such that the claim falls within section 9(a) rather then section 9(b) of the guest ticket contract). I only commented earlier on the terms of the travel contract vis-a-vis the general class action prohibition assuming no death or "injury" to a passenger.

 

A good lawyer, with the right client could make a good case I think. The difference there would be each passenger would have to bring their own claim (as the nature of their harm would vary person to person, I assume) and could not have a class certified.

 

But I'm really not qualified to say more than that. I would just say what I tell family and friends when they ask me for advice outside my area of practice ... if someone feels like they have been harmed and wants to talk about their rights they should seek out an attorney to discuss further.

 

 

 

 

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[CruisingUS]

I really don't know the answer to that one, and it is a great question (because you are asking what does it mean to cause "injury" such that the claim falls within section 9(a) rather then section 9(b) of the guest ticket contract). I only commented earlier on the terms of the travel contract vis-a-vis the general class action prohibition assuming no death or "injury" to a passenger.

 

A good lawyer, with the right client could make a good case I think. The difference there would be each passenger would have to bring their own claim (as the nature of their harm would vary person to person, I assume) and could not have a class certified.

 

But I'm really not qualified to say more than that. I would just say what I tell family and friends when they ask me for advice outside my area of practice ... if someone feels like they have been harmed and wants to talk about their rights they should seek out an attorney to discuss further.

 

 

 

 

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Very interesting indeed. this is what makes the law so hard for laymen such as myself so confusing. I wonder if punitive damages would/could be capped in a maritime law. lol, more questions than answers here. i guess they will have to go unanswered for now.

 

litigation is very frightening for me personally. it shapes the way how my profession does things on a minute by minute basis for some.

[chengkp75]

I don’t need a Harvard law degree, never took maritime law 101 or read cruise ship engineering for dummies like some of you all to know that riding out that storm was done for financial reasons over safety. The lack of communication was also unacceptable and someone has to be held accountable. Full refunds for all!!! Lol

 

 

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And here's a post from the other thread, that quotes some social media where a passenger flatly refutes the much bandied self-interview, and states that communication was made on a fairly regular basis. So, who do you believe, or is it just simply a case of give refunds "just because".

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=54939231&postcount=119

[chengkp75]

Anthem of the Seas was much closer to disaster than many people realize. If that last azipod had failed in those seas, it very well could have gone down. And there is no realistic way to abandon ship in the lifeboats safely in weather like that, loss of life would be extreme. These mega ships are floating skyscrapers, they are not designed to operate in extremely rough/hurricane level waters with no functioning engines. Also these ships are not terribly well maintained and have engines that fail under the best of conditions. Again, this is a numbers game, there are so many mega ship cruises launching now on a daily basis. If the cruise lines don't change their behavior and start acting more responsibly with respect to forecasted storms, eventually, something really bad is going to happen.

 

1. Have you done wave tank model studies to know whether Anthem was "closer to disaster" and "could have gone down"? Or is this just your layman's opinion?

 

2. Even if the ship was without propulsion, it would likely not have been abandoned, but I would like to know your source of the statement: "no realistic way to abandon ship in the lifeboats safely in weather like that"? Or again merely an uninformed opinion?

 

3. Please provide the source for this statement: "they are not designed to operate in extremely rough/hurricane level waters with no functioning engines." Do you have access to the intact and damage stability calculations done for the Quantum class cruise ships, or any ships for that matter?

 

4. " Also these ships are not terribly well maintained and have engines that fail under the best of conditions." Can you cite the maintenance records for Anthem, its class society survey records over the last few years, and the azipod (not engine) manufacturer's recommended maintenance to compare how "well maintained" they are?

 

And, "mega ships being launched on a daily basis"? Really? Are we back to WWII and these are Liberty and Victory ships? Hyperbole doesn't help any argument.

 

Contrary to what many believe, I am not a cheerleader for any line, and have chastised them on this site when the facts warrant it, but I don't make unfounded statements like the above that have no research behind them.

[Minoushka]

On our preXmas Koningsdam cruise a fire broke out on the 3rd floor apparently in a refrigerator .very early one morning ....I assume large walk in .The seven shrill alarm went off .I was having breakfast t outdoors just outside the buffet area.

Five guys were transporting a big heavy piece of machinery they were busy installing at the seaview pool .When that alarm rang ..they just froze, waited listened to insrtuctions from the officer of the watch ..and took off like bullets

A few minutes later the officer told us where the fire was .Shortly thereafetr told us teams were taking care of it ,Final message all clear fire is out .these messages were given rather quickly over the PA .We were kept informed until the fire was put out .

I think they prevented a panic due to advising us as to what the problem was and how they were solving it

From my understanding of Breakaway ..explicit communication and updates were lacking .....maybe that needs to be addressed

Reassuring pax all is handled is vital ...silence sometimes really scares people ..wondering what is being hidden .

I was on Breakaway last year ..our captain warned us NO SMOOTH RIDE going down to Caribbean ..nor coming home ....Yes it wasrough but notquite as bad as this years crossing

I think it is fair to say the North Atlantic in fall or winter can be tempermental ...

[suffield12]

Such over reaction from some. The vessel experienced larger roll and pitch than passengers are used to in benign Caribbean seas, but the reported sea states were nothing a vessel of this size couldn’t handle. I’ve spent many a winter heaved to in 20mtr plus seas and 90kt winds in 90mtr long dive support vessels. Uncomfortable? Yes. Outlandishly dangerous? Not really.

 

You want ships sailing from northern ports year round, then the odd bumpy ride should be a given.

 

Should people be given refunds? Why? The vessel maintained her schedule. If people want money off for rough weather then what is the cut off? Do we get a 25% discount for spilling a drink?

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Your posts are excellent and very well written and agree with the above.

 

When discussing the potential disaster of engine failure maybe you should mention the diesel electric philosophy used onboard these vessels with 4-6 main engines (don’t know off hand how many the breakaway has), split bus ties and mechanical/electrical redundancy almost to DP class 2 standards? There again better not, may as well let people believe there is one tractor engine powering this ship that could stop at any time otherwise how will they get a refund/compensation......

 

 

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Yes, the IMO's Safe Return to Port requirements for passenger vessels laid down since 2010 adds another whole layer to the "ship in danger" argument.

[theroos17]

It will be interesting to see how NCL handles it in the next few weeks. Back in 2005, when the Dawn got stuck in a nor'easter and got hit by the rogue wave we were compensated very well for what happened. We got half back immediately for that cruise and got the equivalent amount of money for our next cruise booking with NCL. Even with the bad cruise experience, it was the actions of NCL after the fact that kept us cruising with them.

 

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[bob brown]

On our preXmas Koningsdam cruise a fire broke out on the 3rd floor apparently in a refrigerator .very early one morning ....I assume large walk in .The seven shrill alarm went off .I was having breakfast t outdoors just outside the buffet area.

Five guys were transporting a big heavy piece of machinery they were busy installing at the seaview pool .When that alarm rang ..they just froze, waited listened to insrtuctions from the officer of the watch ..and took off like bullets

A few minutes later the officer told us where the fire was .Shortly thereafetr told us teams were taking care of it ,Final message all clear fire is out .these messages were given rather quickly over the PA .We were kept informed until the fire was put out .

I think they prevented a panic due to advising us as to what the problem was and how they were solving it

From my understanding of Breakaway ..explicit communication and updates were lacking .....maybe that needs to be addressed

Reassuring pax all is handled is vital ...silence sometimes really scares people ..wondering what is being hidden .

I was on Breakaway last year ..our captain warned us NO SMOOTH RIDE going down to Caribbean ..nor coming home ....Yes it wasrough but notquite as bad as this years crossing

I think it is fair to say the North Atlantic in fall or winter can be tempermental ...

I agree that NCL should (and hopefully will) address the communications issue...

I believe RCI has learned their lesson from their experience on the Anthem of the Seas a few years back....

I was just on a twelve day cruise on her, in December. We encountered a storm on the way back to Bayonne. The Captain, Henrik Sorensen, did an outstanding job of communicating with us, every step of the way. He put on a special weather channel for us to see real time weather, and ship navigation information. He did a half hour program, explaining where we were, where the storm was, how he was going to circumnavigate it by diverting west to follow the coast, and increase speed to maximum when possible, to get us home safely and on time, which he did. He also told us when to expect motion, when the worst of it would occur, and when to expect smoother seas. The storm was nowhere near as bad as the one the Breakaway encountered, but the passenger's were all reassured by the communications. It should be the model for all cruise ships to aspire to.:)

[ColinIllinois]

Since 2006, the number of fires on,cruise ships has doubled to seven or eight a year. The figures are sketchy since ships not registered in the USA don'have to report to US gov't.

 

The NCL Star had several power and propulsion issues recently.

 

One website reports,that there were 18 incidents of partial or total power failure in 2016 on ships operated by US based companies.

 

Perhaps the power systems on,cruise ships are not as stable as they could be.

 

Carnival invested millions of dollars to revamp the systems on their ships after the infamous "Poop ship" incident.

 

Even though most ships have redundant systems, they can still fail.

 

The Breakaway has 4 engines, 2 azipods and 3 bow thrusters

 

It would be interesting to see how many cruises combined by all cruise lines sail each year, along with how many engine hours and nautical miles that encompasses. It must be remembered that these vessels for the most part, barring very short refits/dry docks in some years, are running 24/7/365.

 

It is inevitable that systems are going to break down.

[swedish weave]

It would be interesting to see how many cruises combined by all cruise lines sail each year, along with how many engine hours and nautical miles that encompasses. It must be remembered that these vessels for the most part, barring very short refits/dry docks in some years, are running 24/7/365.

 

It is inevitable that systems are going to break down.

The statistics would be impossible to assemble since the cruise lines are not required to report incidents or figures to a central governing body.

 

The stats I found were from several different sources.

[HokiePoq]

Cruising from NYC in winter. You should expect rough weather until you get to the latitude of the Florida Keys. Cold fronts get that far south and nor'easters along the coast are not that unusual in winter months. #graveyardoftheatlantic

 

This. NCL can't deliver balmy weather to the NE. The only preventive they have is to stop cruising out of New York in winter. The storm was pretty wide and I believe the captain would have steered clear if he could have.....would have had to go way off course to do so and the following week's cruise would not have been able to sail and those onboard would have been very unhappy to miss their scheduled flights home.