HAL to Disband HAL Dancers and Singers

[Cruzaholic41]

And once again Oprah gets mentioned in a thread that has NOTHING to do with her. *sigh*

 

Get over it.

[OlsSalt]

Why does the Oprah thing come up again in this thread - the thread in toto is about changes to the traditional onboard services offerings and new Seattle management input on those decisions which are in response to growing numbers of passenger complaints - poor inventory found in onboard shop, lack daily entertainment activities and failure of a unified, cross-brand onboard identity.

 

The Oprah thing was obviously a package deal to provide a franchised layer of customer services: branding for marketing, control of shop's inventory, fitness classes, enrichment classes. It was a lazy one-size-fits-fits all choice that attacked a growing list of passenger complaints about each of these onboard activities.

 

I did not see anyone show up for the O fitness classes, the O enrichment class I attended was pure NewAge hokum, the O book club meeting got cancelled, the Oprah's Favorite things shop online contained $200 bird houses so not yet sure how that O curated inventory will translate in onboard sales on various ships.

 

But look at the package HAL got - pay one franchise fee to serve up an entire palate of onboard passenger services along with name recognition marketing and a saturation of O magazines carpeting the onboard libraries along with her grinning visage beaming at you from various locations.

 

Beats having Seattle to be responsible for making all those diffuse and independent decisions. Plug in the O franchise and sit back to reap only the profits the O franchise generates. Seattle will run the numbers to see if this was a good deal or not. We will never know. But if we are honest, we were not getting well-served recently having these services farmed out independently either.

[Sea girl 23]

Why does the Oprah thing come up again in this thread - the thread in toto is about changes to the traditional onboard services offerings and new Seattle management input on those decisions.

 

The Oprah thing was obviously a package deal to provide a franchised layer of customer services: branding for marketing, control of shop's inventory, fitness classes, enrichment classes. It was a lazy one-size-fits-fits all choice that attacked a growing list of passenger complaints about each of these onboard activities.

 

I did not see anyone show up for the O fitness classes, the O enrichment class I attended was pure NewAge hokum, the O book club meeting got cancelled, the Oprah's Favorite things shop online contained $200 bird houses so not yet sure how that O curated inventory will translate in onboard sales on various ships.

 

But look at the package HAL got - pay one franchise fee to serve up an entire palate of onboard passenger services along with name recognition marketing and a saturation of O magazines in the libraries. Beats having to be responsible for making all those independent decisions. Seattle can run the numbers to see if this was a good deal or not. We will never know.

 

* high five*

[OlsSalt]

* high five*

 

Cruise industry could use a little more competition putting together a multiple services packages like this, than just the one choice right now. Credit to Ms Winfrey for being an early innovator. I hope we soon see far more robust options for this type of similar onboard package, because it looks like the "O" package is a total dud.

 

It does allow Seattle management to show they did something in response to the growing complaints about the collective on board issues previously stated, but it has to be a lot better than this package or why even bother? This is best called just phoning it in.

 

Hope some other enterprising groups see the potential in creating a better, less divisive package. Perhaps the innate fecklessness of "New Age" hokum is as neutral as we can get. It helps that Ms Winfrey is no longer blatantly running for a partisan US President nomination and is now merely maximizing her own bottom line. I support this in principle even though I have no interest in helping her personally.

[bUU]

There may be a disconnect here, but if the Oprah branding means more income for the company then it means that passengers are paying more or the company has cut back on other amenities.

Not necessarily - there are other scenarios, most notably an increase in affinity-driven sales - precisely the kind of sales that jaded, long-timers don't generate for the cruise line.

 

In this case, the singers and dancers are gone but I can watch a movie instead and buy a T-shirt with an "O".

That's precisely my point: Drawing any such implications is irrational. Managing a business like a cruise line is far more complex and nuanced than adding "this" mean deleting "that". It's another case of dumbing down the reality for no purpose other than to justify baseless cruise line bashing. It may be what all the kids who think they are "cool" are doing but if all of them were jumping off the balcony does that mean you'll jump off the balcony?

[RDC1]

Keep in mind that when people compare the production shows on HAL to the ones on Royal and NCL, or for that matter even Celebrity or Princess, HAL ships tend to be much smaller. Even the new ships are 1/2 the size of the new Royal or NCL ships. As such the cost of the high end production shows are spread out over many more passengers.

 

When you look at the much smaller, less efficient economically, then the much larger ships used by those other lines HAL has to make decisions to remain competitive. It looks like they are moving more to the entertainment model used by smaller ship lines such as Oceania, instead of the mega productions now being done on the new mega ships. They could compete with those shows, they just have to increase their new ship sizes to 5000 passengers or so of Royal, NCL, MSC, etc or to 3500-4000 of Princess and Celebrity.

 

I expect that would draw far more complaints from traditional HAL cruisers than a change in production shows.

[SetAnOpenCourse]

I know it may be irrelevant at this point (they wouldn’t bring in actors when they’re getting rid of singers/dancers), but did HAL ever have musicals or plays?

[Sea girl 23]

Cruise industry could use a little more competition putting together a multiple services packages like this, than just the one choice right now. Credit to Ms Winfrey for being an early innovator. I hope we soon see far more robust options for this type of similar onboard package, because it looks like the "O" package is a total dud.

 

It does allow Seattle management to show they did something in response to the growing complaints about the collective on board issues previously stated, but it has to be a lot better than this package or why even bother? This is best called just phoning it in.

 

Hope some other enterprising groups see the potential in creating a better, less divisive package. Perhaps the innate fecklessness of "New Age" hokum is as neutral as we can get. It helps that Ms Winfrey is no longer blatantly running for a partisan US President nomination and is now merely maximizing her own bottom line. I support this in principle even though I have no interest in helping her personally.

 

The new age stuff isn't going to win over people who hated her in the first place. Better that it get toned way down.

[Aquahound]

Keep in mind that when people compare the production shows on HAL to the ones on Royal and NCL, or for that matter even Celebrity or Princess, HAL ships tend to be much smaller. Even the new ships are 1/2 the size of the new Royal or NCL ships. As such the cost of the high end production shows are spread out over many more passengers.

 

When you look at the much smaller, less efficient economically, then the much larger ships used by those other lines HAL has to make decisions to remain competitive. It looks like they are moving more to the entertainment model used by smaller ship lines such as Oceania, instead of the mega productions now being done on the new mega ships. They could compete with those shows, they just have to increase their new ship sizes to 5000 passengers or so of Royal, NCL, MSC, etc or to 3500-4000 of Princess and Celebrity.

 

I expect that would draw far more complaints from traditional HAL cruisers than a change in production shows.

 

I can't say that I agree with ship size correlating to quality of entertainment. Even the smallest ships of those other lines have better and more varied entertainment than HAL. Also, some of the luxury lines like Crystal seem to have better rated entertainment over HAL.

[OlsSalt]

I can't say that I agree with ship size correlating to quality of entertainment. Even the smallest ships of those other lines have better and more varied entertainment than HAL. Also, some of the luxury lines like Crystal seem to have better rated entertainment over HAL.

 

How do the prices on those smaller cruise lines compare to HAL smaller ships?

[Aquahound]

How do the prices on those smaller cruise lines compare to HAL smaller ships?

 

Very comparable, if not cheaper. Except, of course the luxury lines.

[bUU]

Keep in mind that when people compare the production shows on HAL to the ones on Royal and NCL, or for that matter even Celebrity or Princess, HAL ships tend to be much smaller. Even the new ships are 1/2 the size of the new Royal or NCL ships. As such the cost of the high end production shows are spread out over many more passengers.

 

When you look at the much smaller, less efficient economically, then the much larger ships used by those other lines HAL has to make decisions to remain competitive. It looks like they are moving more to the entertainment model used by smaller ship lines such as Oceania, instead of the mega productions now being done on the new mega ships. They could compete with those shows, they just have to increase their new ship sizes to 5000 passengers or so of Royal, NCL, MSC, etc or to 3500-4000 of Princess and Celebrity.

 

I expect that would draw far more complaints from traditional HAL cruisers than a change in production shows.

Very well said. That's the kind of nuanced business analysis that some folks truly hate because it undercuts their standard arguments and there is no legitimate rebuttal to post.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[OlsSalt]

Very comparable, if not cheaper. Except, of course the luxury lines.

 

Who are the smaller cruise lines with cheaper prices and superior entertainment? Crystal would not be one of them.

[Aquahound]

Who are the smaller cruise lines with cheaper prices and superior entertainment? Crystal would not be one of them.

 

You misunderstood. Please go back and read my post again, and the post to who I was responding. I didn't say smaller cruise lines. I said "smallest ships" of the lines RDC1 mentioned (RCI, NCL, MSC, Princess, Celebrity).

[Aquahound]

Very well said. That's the kind of nuanced business analysis that some folks truly hate because it undercuts their standard arguments and there is no legitimate rebuttal to post.

 

BS. I recently cruised on a 48k GT ship that had better and more varied entertainment than even HAL's largest ship. So once again, I disagree with your opinion.

[RDC1]

I can't say that I agree with ship size correlating to quality of entertainment. Even the smallest ships of those other lines have better and more varied entertainment than HAL. Also, some of the luxury lines like Crystal seem to have better rated entertainment over HAL.

 

Yes, but those cruise lines, such as Crystal, Regent, Oceania have a much higher average cruise fare than does HAL.

 

HAL is in an interesting niche. The smallest average ship size of the mass market brands, in a similar fare range as the mass market brands. As such they have higher per passenger costs, with similar per passenger revenue.

 

The other lines have to build their entertainment across their brand. As a result they can absorb some extra costs per passenger on their smaller ships, and make up for it with the lower costs per passengers on their mega ships.

 

Also another consideration is that HAL tends to longer average cruise lengths than the other mainstream lines. As such there tend to be the ratio of production shows per days of cruise tend to be lower, meaning that the production show casts tend to have a higher relative cost in terms of productivity.

[Aquahound]

Yes, but those cruise lines, such as Crystal, Regent, Oceania have a much higher average cruise fare than does HAL.

 

HAL is in an interesting niche. The smallest average ship size of the mass market brands, in a similar fare range as the mass market brands. As such they have higher per passenger costs, with similar per passenger revenue.

 

The other lines have to build their entertainment across their brand. As a result they can absorb some extra costs per passenger on their smaller ships, and make up for it with the lower costs per passengers on their mega ships.

 

You could be right. I still can't say I'm totally on board though. I see HAL branding itself with Oprah, BBC, etc, all the while decreasing main stage entertainment, so I'm not sure it's a necessary cost thing. I think it's a chosen cost thing.

[RDC1]

I did a quick comparison of average cruise line ship size using the stated 2 person per cabin occupancy for competing cruise lines.

 

HAL - total capacity 26,251 with 15 ships average capacity 1750

Princess - total capacity 44,702 with 17 ships, average capacity 2629

Royal Caribbean - Total Capacity 82824 with 25 ships, average capacity 3313

NCL - Total Capacity 50.569 with 17 ships, average capacity 2974

Celebrity - Total Capacity 23118 with 9 ships, average capacity 2568

 

So if one looks at these numbers and assumes the same average number of shows per cruise days, the same cost of production X, and that the ships are in service for the same number of days per year, then the relative cost per passenger would be

 

Hal = X

Princess = .66X

Royal Caribbean = .52X

NCL = .58X

Celebrity = .68X

 

So to put it simply HAL either has to make the decision to put a higher percentage of each passenger revenue to entertainment or to find ways to cut costs of that entertainment. To put it simply for an equivalent program HAL would spend 47% more per passenger for the same cost program. If they have enough pricing power they can raise rates, if not then they must solve in other ways.

 

Now they could do what Princess does on the Pacific Princess, their smallest ship. On that ship the production show entertainers also do double duty as the CD staff. They liked it because they get a higher rank than normal and that rank remains with them as long as they stay with Princess. It was great for the passengers with the production dancers and singers teaching dance classes, leading zumba, doing trivia, etc.

[Cruzaholic41]

Ok, but how much is HAL putting toward their partnerships with Test Kitchen, BBC, Afar, Oprah, BB King, Utrip, Billboard.....

 

I think money would be better spent on good entertainment rather than partnering with other known brands. I realize BBs and Billboard is entertainment, but the main shows are suffering, not to mention the Crows Nest.

[OlsSalt]

You misunderstood. Please go back and read my post again, and the post to who I was responding. I didn't say smaller cruise lines. I said "smallest ships" of the lines RDC1 mentioned (RCI, NCL, MSC, Princess, Celebrity).

 

Just looking for names of these smaller ships with the superior entertainment. Curious what they do to pull this off.

 

On our very small Voyages of Discovery ship several years ago, we had a H&W singer/dancer team, a dancer-coreographer and a few back up dancers and an excellent cruise director who was quite capable of putting on very good singing lounge acts in other various ship venues. Even though the shows required costume changes in a curtained off hall way. They were very good. So I am interested to learn who is out there, putting something like that on on other small ships. VOV is now out of business.

[Aquahound]

Just looking for names of these smaller ships with the superior entertainment. Curious what they do to pull this off. Actually on our very small Voyages of Discovery ship we had a H&W singer/dancer team, a dancer-coreographer and a few back up dancers and an excellent cruise director who was very capable of putting on a very good singing lounge acts in various ship venues. Even with costume changes in the curtained off hall way. They were very good. Interested is who is out there putting something like that on on other small ships.

 

My most recent was on Empress of the Seas. The main stage productions had 4 very talented singers and about a dozen dancers. They were excellent. They put on 3 shows on a 5 night cruise.

 

Aside from that, there was the piano bar (far more lively than HAL), a Latin band in Boleros, a live band playing in the main atrium, karaoke in another lounge, and nightly game shows like Love and Marriage, Quest, Battle of the Sexes, etc. Plus, there was a live poolside band during the day, who also played one night in one of the lounges.

 

This is just one example. This is pretty standard on most smaller ships of the major lines (except HAL).

[RDC1]

Another consideration is the relative cost per passenger. A quick and dirty way to look at that is to look at the Market Watch data and look at the ratio of percent industry revenue, divided by percent of industry passengers.

 

If one does that you get:

 

Carnival .40

Royal .73

MSC .94

NCL .96

 

I will point out that this ratio is all passengers carried, not their 2 person per cabin ratio. So one factor that drives the number of these four lower is their tendency to have higher overall occupancy numbers, the number of families and corresponding 3-4 person occupancy.

 

The next tier is

 

Princess 1.42

Celebrity 1.51

HAL 1.75

 

The last tier is pretty much what you would expect

Azmara 3.0

Oceania 4.6

Silversea 5.0

Crystal 6.0

Seabourne 6.0

Regent 6.3

[OlsSalt]

You could be right. I still can't say I'm totally on board though. I see HAL branding itself with Oprah, BBC, etc, all the while decreasing main stage entertainment, so I'm not sure it's a necessary cost thing. I think it's a chosen cost thing.

 

I think it has something to do with the recent union contract change that prevents the use of entertainers onboard for anything other than entertainment - no longer required (?) tour group escorts or run or participate in passenger activities - trivia, sports deck games, CD interviews etc.

 

When the entertainment offerings take up valuable crew beds and lots of space and technical support for their productions, getting only a few hours of useful work from them every few days and closing off public venues for rehersals probably is what was no longer cost effective. Better to just shift them on and off ships and not make them permanent limited-duty passengers. For cost-saving efficiencies, many crew members do need to multi-task.

[RDC1]

My most recent was on Empress of the Seas. The main stage productions had 4 very talented singers and about a dozen dancers. They were excellent. They put on 3 shows on a 5 night cruise.

 

Aside from that, there was the piano bar (far more lively than HAL), a Latin band in Boleros, a live band playing in the main atrium, karaoke in another lounge, and nightly game shows like Love and Marriage, Quest, Battle of the Sexes, etc. Plus, there was a live poolside band during the day, who also played one night in one of the lounges.

 

This is just one example. This is pretty standard on most smaller ships of the major lines (except HAL).

 

I would point out that at 1840 passengers, this ship, one of the smallest of RCL is still larger than HALs average fleet size.

 

The cruise lines do need to maintain some consistency across their fleets. As such they will absorb higher costs on their smaller ships that is made up by the cost efficiency of their larger ships in order to provide brand identity.

 

Now the two lines closest to HAL in ship size, though still considerably larger (Princess and Celebrity) have also made adjustments. It was not that long ago that Celebrity dramatically reduced the size of their CD staff, cut back on on board activities, and had some that used to be done free by CD staff become for fee by the spa staff (zumba and other type exercise classes). Princess has started to make changes to electronic backgrounds instead of full sets on their new performances.

Edited June 25, 2018 by RDC1

[RDC1]

I think it has something to do with the recent union contract change that prevents the use of entertainers onboard for anything other than entertainment - no longer required (?) tour group escorts or run or participate in passenger activities - trivia, sports deck games, CD interviews etc.

 

When the entertainment offerings take up valuable crew beds and lots of space and technical support for their productions, getting only a few hours of useful work from them every few days and closing off public venues for rehersals probably is what was no longer cost effective. Better to just shift them on and off ships and not make them permanent limited-duty passengers. For cost-saving efficiencies, many crew members do need to multi-task.

 

Just noting that HAL and Princess are part of the same corporate group within Carnival. Princess actually uses the production show cast as CD staff on the Pacific Princess and it works very well. I doubt that Princess can manage contractual issues any better than HAL when most likely they use the same contracting departments.