Has there been a rule change for staff speaking their native language in public?

[Sopwith]

9 hours ago, SilvertoGold said:

My DH speaks Bahasa with the Indonesian crew, from room stewards to managers, and they love it.  He's had some "looks" from pax, though.  

 

 

I have been to Indonesia on business several times and although I am not fluent, I've picked up a few phrases (good morning, thank you, how are you, etc.)  When I greet the crew members this way their reaction is without exception one of pleasure.  They love it and are impressed that (a) I've been to their country, and (b) have the respect to greet them and thank them in their own language.  

 

If people are concerned that they may be saying some disparaging things about passengers, well, it will happen anyway, if not in front of the passengers, in private. (Frankly, some passengers deserve it.)  But I've seen enough embarrassment in enough countries to know that sooner or later they'll regret it because someone they least expect will understand what they're saying and talk back to them.  I remember one very chagrined French family in London who didn't realize the shop keeper they were dissing was fluent in French.

[SilvertoGold]

11 hours ago, Sopwith said:

I have been to Indonesia on business several times and although I am not fluent, I've picked up a few phrases (good morning, thank you, how are you, etc.)  When I greet the crew members this way their reaction is without exception one of pleasure.  They love it and are impressed that (a) I've been to their country, and (b) have the respect to greet them and thank them in their own language.  

 

If people are concerned that they may be saying some disparaging things about passengers, well, it will happen anyway, if not in front of the passengers, in private. (Frankly, some passengers deserve it.)  But I've seen enough embarrassment in enough countries to know that sooner or later they'll regret it because someone they least expect will understand what they're saying and talk back to them.  I remember one very chagrined French family in London who didn't realize the shop keeper they were dissing was fluent in French.

 

They are surprised that pax can speak Bahasa. They always comment on my DH's accent, as it apparently is very good.   Knowing how he came to speak Bahasa so well, where we have been in Indonesia, what we saw, how we like their country are questions they always ask.  They are quite happy to teach my DH and me some slang expressions to add to our knowledge.

[AmazedByCruising]

On 12/3/2018 at 10:14 PM, Copper10-8 said:

Both the ss Nieuw Jakarta basic school (housekeeping, restaurant servers, sailors, etc.) as well as the basic school in the Philippines (beverage, kitchen, guest services, etc.) teach English to their entry-level students and they have to pass a proficiency test in English prior to being send to the ships to start their career with HAL.

 

There indeed does seem a particular division between crew. Philipinos make the drinks, Indonesians make the beds, and not just on HAL but also X. How did that happen?

 

(Needed to look up "cloggy" to find its meaning but Urban Dictionary tells me it's already a "geuzennaam" :)) 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by AmazedByCruising

[AmazedByCruising]

On 12/3/2018 at 10:14 PM, Copper10-8 said:

 I don't see what the issue is with that within reason but, then again, I've never been called the sharpest pencil in the box; I just don't see the big deal

 

Certainly not the examples you name, of course. 

But I have one  example.   I once asked about a behind the scenes tour at Guest Relations at desk 2, she said "yes of course, that's tomorrow. Let me put you on the list" . Then desk 1, who overheard the conversation, interfered with desk 2, and they were more or less whispering (in English I guess, but it could as well have been Chinese), and then desk 2 said "Sorry sir, I've just been informed that the tour is not available on this cruise".  

 

Bummer. But of course I was wondering what they were whispering about. Was it "No tour on this cruise because of the drill scheduled tomorrow"? Or, was it "That's the fat guy the purser warned us about"? Usually, CC told me, there was such a tour. 

 

If they would have spoken Tagalog out loud, I'd have the same feeling. It's not a huge deal but still. It's like you're on the phone with Amazon and put on hold while the front office discusses the matter with their superior. You'd really like to hear what arguments are put back and forth between them before the front gets back to you saying that the fine print says that you're not entitled to a book even if you paid for it.

[Copper10-8]

10 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

There indeed does seem a particular division between crew. Philipinos make the drinks, Indonesians make the beds, and not just on HAL but also X. How did that happen?

 

(Needed to look up "cloggy" to find its meaning but Urban Dictionary tells me it's already a "geuzennaam" :)) 

 

 

Iemand die klompen draagt/someone who wears wooden shoes; nickname for the Dutch 

 

The fact that Indonesian staff does not work in the beverage dept on HAL has a lot to do with their religion. On HAL, the sailors, boatmen, storekeeper, quartermasters, bosun, asst. bosun, housekeeping staff (executive housekeeper, asst. housekeepers, junior housekeepers, stateroom inspectors, room stewards and their assistants, HK handyman, bell boys, HK attendants), restaurant workers (main dining room/Lido/Canaletto/some PG, Tamarind (girls only)), dining room managers and assistants, dining room greeters aka "the Yum Yum men", storekeepers, engine space guys (engine foreman, wipers, firemen/greasers, machinists and the "lampie"), pest management coordinators, senior administrative clerks, pursers, controllers, crew officers/PPO's and clerks, the laundry staff, their foreman, linen keepers and laundry master, the florists (on some ships) are Indonesian.

 

The Filipino community can be found in the beverage dept (beverage manager and assistants, bar tenders, wine stewards, baristas, GPA bars, head deck stewards), food preparation (cooks and assistants, sous-chefs, butchers, bakers, pastry chefs, chefs de partie, demi-chefs, kitchen assistants, general service attendants aka "blue boys") guest services (some GRM's, supervisors, worker bees) provision masters, crew doctors, security supervisors and guards (some security officers), the printer, fire safety attendants, facility managers, facility technicians, inventory specialists, carpenters, tailors, upholsterers, locksmiths, electronic technicians, refrigeration technicians, engine mechanics, engineering officers incl. officer cadets, waste disposal guys, Information Technology officers and assistants, and stage crew

 

That then leaves all the 35+ other nationalities in positions such as captain, staff captain, the various deck officers, environmental officers, security officers (some SECO's, supervisors and guards are from India), at least one boatswain/bosun from Bulgaria, medical staff (most pax physicians and nurses are South African now), chief engineer, staff chief engineer and engineering officers, chief electrician and electricians, guest relations managers and international guest relations associates, some pursers, manager onboard marketing, human resources managers, some I.T. officers, executive chefs, some international PG managers, waiters and waitresses, food & beverage managers and their assistants, tournants, some beverage managers and their assistants, some executive housekeepers, some asst. housekeepers, some florists (the ones on the Amsterdam grand world have been a Dutch couple for several years in a row now), shore excursion manager/EXC and staff, the entertainers (event managers, cruise directors and staff, cast, musicians), future cruise consultants, the arts folks (mostly South African), Spa manager and staff, shop manager and staff , photo/image creator manager and staff, Club HAL manager and youth staff, casino manager and staff   

[Copper10-8]

41 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Certainly not the examples you name, of course. 

But I have one  example.   I once asked about a behind the scenes tour at Guest Relations at desk 2, she said "yes of course, that's tomorrow. Let me put you on the list" . Then desk 1, who overheard the conversation, interfered with desk 2, and they were more or less whispering (in English I guess, but it could as well have been Chinese), and then desk 2 said "Sorry sir, I've just been informed that the tour is not available on this cruise".............................

 

The majority of the front office/guest services staff, with the exception of the international guest relations associates, are Filipino/Filipina and their native language is Tagalog, as you mentioned. In your example given, those two screwed up! There is no "whispering in front of guests", period! If the second associate had info about your "behind the scenes tour', she should have pulled the first attd. in the back office out of view of you, after having excused themselves to you. I know some GRMs who would have had a "piece of their behinds" if they would have seen how they handled that tour info in front of you. No excuse for that behavior! So, yes, they totally mishandled that one!

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

The fact that Indonesian staff does not work in the beverage dept on HAL has a lot to do with their religion.  

 

Thank you for the huge list of professions on board, and what job a Filipino can apply for, and which is ok for an Indonesian. 

While I'm actually sitting 2m away from a Balinese women who has friends working on a ship, all of them non-religious or Hindu, on land such a precise division would be really weird. 

 

I guess by "their religion" you mean Islam. I don't understand how they wouldn't be able to pour a nice whiskey for a non-believer but wouldn't care to make towel animals to add some fun the next week when ship is chartered for a gay cruise. 

 

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Thank you for the huge list of professions on board, and what job a Filipino can apply for, and which is ok for an Indonesian. 

While I'm actually sitting 2m away from a Balinese women who has friends working on a ship, all of them non-religious or Hindu, on land such a precise division would be really weird. 

 

I guess by "their religion" you mean Islam. I don't understand how they wouldn't be able to pour a nice whiskey for a non-believer but wouldn't care to make towel animals to add some fun the next week when ship is chartered for a gay cruise. 

 

Most cruise lines, when a "special" charter, like a gay cruise or nudist cruise, is chartered, give the crew the option of opting out of that cruise and transferring, if their religious beliefs conflict.

I'm not sure, on HAL, how "rigid" the nationality job assignments are, from a company guidance standpoint, and to departmental assignments.  On NCL, they have both Filipino and Indonesian crew, and there is general overlap in departments and positions, but there is also a lot of "ethnic Mafia", where supervisors in one department or sub-area, being of one ethnicity, tend to congregate subordinates of that same ethnicity, and whether justified or not, there is a feeling of "preference" for that ethnicity within that department, so it tends to be self-fulfilling.  This "taking care of our own" will also cross departmental boundaries, and while I've never seen any real tension between nationalities onboard, they do tend to be somewhat "clannish".

[Copper10-8]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Most cruise lines, when a "special" charter, like a gay cruise or nudist cruise, is chartered, give the crew the option of opting out of that cruise and transferring, if their religious beliefs conflict.

I'm not sure, on HAL, how "rigid" the nationality job assignments are, from a company guidance standpoint, and to departmental assignments.  On NCL, they have both Filipino and Indonesian crew, and there is general overlap in departments and positions, but there is also a lot of "ethnic Mafia", where supervisors in one department or sub-area, being of one ethnicity, tend to congregate subordinates of that same ethnicity, and whether justified or not, there is a feeling of "preference" for that ethnicity within that department, so it tends to be self-fulfilling.  This "taking care of our own" will also cross departmental boundaries, and while I've never seen any real tension between nationalities onboard, they do tend to be somewhat "clannish".

 

Oh yeah, there are Indonesian, Filipino and Indian "mafia's" on HAL "downstairs", always have been but, for the most part, everyone gets along during, up to nine month contracts onboard. When conducting internal investigations, it is not always easy to "break that barrier". You have to gain their trust. Physical altercations are rare because everyone knows it's a one-way ticket home

 

The "ethnic" lines are more pronounced on HAL in the various departments with the exception of your, the technical department where Filipinos and Indonesians work side-by-side. HK has always been an "Indonesian affair" when they took over from the Dutch in the seventies although, besides Indonesian, HK has international dept. heads, managers and supervisors (Dutch, Serbian, Indian, Colombian, etc.)

 

The deck/nautical crew (bosun/asst. bosun/sailors/boatmen/quartermasters/storekeeper, deck machinist,etc.) have likewise always been Indonesian and it was quite a surprise for them last year on Oostie when a Bulgarian bosun came over from Princess. He tended to work a "bit different" than what the sailors were used to with their Indonesian bosun 

 

Beverage has always been a Filipino affair, with international supervision, as has guest services, the "kitchen brigade", and security (along with some Indian guards and supervisors) been. The SECO's on HAL are international (British, U.S., one Canadian from Calgary, Filipino, Indian) Talking about security staffing, I believe it is NCL who employs Ghurkas (the tougher as nails guys from Nepal) and Celebrity has the "no-nonsense" Israelis

Edited December 5, 2018 by Copper10-8

[chengkp75]

Yes, NCL's security officers wear shoulder boards with crossed Khukris on them to celebrate their Gurkha heritage.  I've seen a 70 lb Nepalese woman security officer drop a 200 lb sub-contractor welder/shipfitter to his knees with a pressure hold.  When we were first working to reflag the Sky to the Aloha, while still in the Caribbean and transitioning from international to US hotel crew, we had a US guy who came onboard staggering drunk (nice way to report to your job the first day), and who was terminated immediately.  Somehow, Personnel let him out of their sight, and he made it to the Officer's Mess, where he started berating the Captain.  The Gurkhas take a very protective view of their Captains, and lets say this fellow was even more "worse for the wear" when he was literally tossed down the gangway and his bags dumped on top of him.

[chengkp75]

I agree with you on the relationship between the "Mafias".  And they also tend to do some "self policing" so that they don't bring unwanted attention on their ethnic group.

[Copper10-8]

Forgot to mention; on HAL, the various departments composed of the larger nationality groups, so the Indonesians and Filipinos, represented by their elected chairmen (or women),  have monthly round table meetings with senior management (captain/staff captain/chief engineer/hotel director & environmental officer) to discuss/solve any issues that have come up. On HAL, the third largest nationality are probably the Indians

 

Where you can really see the competitiveness among the Filipinos and Indonesians is around this time of the year when everyone is getting ready for the Christmas choir performance on Christmas Eve in the main show lounge. The Indonesians and Filipinos always have their "stuff" together for that performance and sound awesome. The third choir is the "international choir" with which I have "performed" Let's just say that, compared to the Indonesians and Filipinos, we sounded like the ship's horn/whistle of the Anthem of the Seas 

[AmazedByCruising]

On 12/5/2018 at 1:23 PM, chengkp75 said:

Most cruise lines, when a "special" charter, like a gay cruise or nudist cruise, is chartered, give the crew the option of opting out of that cruise and transferring, if their religious beliefs conflict.

 

How many do actually opt out? If I were the cruise line, I'd think "so much hassle and costs, here's your ticket to FLL to get to your new ship, and btw this is also your last contract". Or at least try to use the same ship everytime for such charters to reach an "open minded" crew whithout the hassle. 

 

I don't suppose I can work on a ship and opt out if too many (albeit clothed, differing sexual preferences) Dutch are on board? I didn't like it as a passenger but it looked like hell for the crew 🙂

Edited December 6, 2018 by AmazedByCruising

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

How many do actually opt out? If I were the cruise line, I'd think "so much hassle and costs, here's your ticket to FLL to get to your new ship, and btw this is also your last contract". Or at least try to use the same ship everytime for such charters to reach an "open minded" crew whithout the hassle. 

 

I don't suppose I can work on a ship and opt out if too many (albeit clothed, differing sexual preferences) Dutch are on board? I didn't like it as a passenger but it looked like hell for the crew 🙂

The numbers vary with the type of charter and the beliefs/customs of the crew onboard at the time.  Probably 15-20% is an average.  They've got so many ships based out of the US, particularly Florida, that they can just swap crew from ship to ship with only a couple of days layover.  The expense is factored into the charter price.