HAL the New NCL

[SLove]

Apparently Holland America will be taking a page out of the NCL playbook with their newest class of ships due in a few years.

 

The new class of vessels will include a deck soley dedicated to various restaurants that passengers will have to pay various degrees of extra fees to dine in. This, combined with a higher passenger capacity than Vista Class ships, will usher in a HAL that greatly departs from the great line that so many fell in love with just 5 short years ago. It looks like there will be very little distinguishing the experience onboard the new HAL in comparison with Princess and NCL.

 

I hoped that HAL might return to something resembling the S and R class vessels, but I guess those just aren't profitable enough.

 

Slove

[Krazy Kruizers]

For the last couple of years many of us had hoped that HAL would go back to building more ships in the R and S class. But unfortunately, many of us have gotten nothing bad news that the next ships will be larger.

 

When the last of the R and S class ships are gone from HAL, we will be gone as well.

 

Tried the Vista class ships - they're okay - just not really for us.

[gizmo]

When the last of the R and S class ships are gone from HAL, we will be gone as well.

 

 

We will probably be gone too. :(

 

There are always resorts we can visit.

[kryos]

From what the cruise director said during a panel discussion on the Amsterdam last week, HAL is focusing on a two-prong approach to their marketing: The family market with 7-day voyages on the larger ships, as well as the more exotic voyage market (30+ days). Obviously you're gonna need the smaller ships for those longer voyages as you probably won't be able to fill a 2000+ passenger ship on a 60-day cruise to the Orient with the older, more affluent (in terms of time and money) crowd. Families won't buy into those longer voyages as "working stiffs" can't get that amount of time off, not to mention having the money to take the entire family on such a cruise, and the older crowd who would be interested in those voyages won't be too willing to take them on a huge ship that involves lots of walking to get from point A to point B.

 

I think HAL will always have smaller ships in their fleet ... as long as there are folks with a sense of adventure wanting to take those longer, more exotic trips.

 

Just my opinion ...

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[NapTown Jim]

Why are some of you getting bent out of shape over this? I simply cannot see a logical reason to think that the R & S class ships are due for early retirement. What about Prinsendam? Do you think they're going to sell that off too? Is it really inconcievable that HAL isn't growing in popularity? With reports that HAL is maintaining the highest passenger return rate in the cruise ship industry doesn't it stand to reason that as HAL attracts more passengers these new passengers are wanting to return again and again and tell all their friends and family about their wonderful experience?

 

I realize that the bulk of HAL's loyal passengers are senior citizens and as such they are set in their ways and are very resistant to accept change. What's going on with the new construction builds is called evolution. Either they adapt and thrive or they don't and become an extinct fossil. What would you have them do?

 

In the meantime, enjoy your next vacation. Speaking as a working stiff who can't get away from the office for extended periods of time I value my vacations. You should too wheather you work or not.

[SLove]

Hi there rita

 

You are correct about HAL still using their R and S class ships for longer voyages and exotic locations in the coming years. The problem is that as a "working stiff" I can't get off more than about 9 days or so for a trip. So, I guess I'll only have their new megafoodcourt ships to partake in if I want to sail for 7 days.

 

I guess I'd better cherish the next few years before this happens.

 

Slove

[jhannah]

While I prefer smaller ships, I don't have a problem with larger ones (within reason.) I also don't believe we'll have to worry in our lifetime about having HAL offer nothing but big ships to their clients.

[SLove]

Hi Naptown Jim

 

I don't think that I ever said that I thought HAL was going to send any of their smaller fleet to an early grave - just that they are going to position those ships - as gizmo and I think kyros said - to longer itineraries and exotic ports. Therefore, I won't be able to sail on the smaller fleet for another 30 years or so! Who knows what will be the situation by that time!

 

I don't mind the Vista Class at all - still a good experience at a good price. However, I HATED my two experiences aboard NCL and hope that HAL has enough sense to not go down that road: nickle and diming in all the restaurants and lowering the quality in the main dining rooms.

[BruceMuzz]

It is a well known fact in the cruise industry that small ships cannot make a profit. Their fixed costs are nearly equal to the costs of a much larger ship - without the larger customer base to support them.

Can anyone here name a small Ocean-going Cruise ship that was built recently, say in the past 10 years?? There are none. And it is extremely unlikely that we will see any in the future. Cruise Lines will not waste hundreds of millions of dollars to build ships that are all but guaranteed to lose money.

Cruise Line Presidents are not too keen on committing career suicide and bankrupting billion dollar companies to satisfy a rapidly shrinking market of people who want to cruise on small ships - but who are not willing to pay the much higher fares that would allow the ships to operate at a profit.

 

As a Carnival Corp stockholder, I am quite happy that HAL will not be building any more small ships. I worked very hard for the money I invested in those stocks, and I don't want it frittered away to cater to a losing proposition.

 

Now if you are really serious about convincing the cruise lines to build more small ships, you should be booking every cruise on Seabourn, Radison, and Silver Sea. Since many of their sailings are half empty, you will not have too much trouble getting a cabin. Once the Cruise Line Execs see that you are REALLY serious about keeping small ships around - and that you are willing to support your convictions with your wallets, they will rush out to build as many more as they can.

But if they get the idea that you are trying to get something for nothing; that is, trying to get a 2006 cruise at 1967 prices, it just hastens the end of small ship cruising.

[MrLee]

From what the cruise director said during a panel discussion on the Amsterdam last week, HAL is focusing on a two-prong approach to their marketing: The family market with 7-day voyages on the larger ships, as well as the more exotic voyage market (30+ days). Obviously you're gonna need the smaller ships for those longer voyages as you probably won't be able to fill a 2000+ passenger ship on a 60-day cruise to the Orient with the older, more affluent (in terms of time and money) crowd. Families won't buy into those longer voyages as "working stiffs" can't get that amount of time off, not to mention having the money to take the entire family on such a cruise, and the older crowd who would be interested in those voyages won't be too willing to take them on a huge ship that involves lots of walking to get from point A to point B.

 

--rita

 

 

I certainly agree an older crowd. When we boarded the ship I had to ask my wife if this was a cruise of the Carribean or the River Styx.;)

 

And before anyone gets all bent out of shape, I'm 63 myself.

[Druke I]

BruceMuzz

 

Currently under construction is a class of 4 ships for Aida (German branch of Carnival). They are about 62,500GRT each, but with a higher passenger load than most Americans would find acceptable.

 

Smaller ships can make it if they are marketed properly. Look at Oceania - they are thus far doing very well.

 

And Princess seems to sell out most cruises on Tahitian Princess & Pacific Princess, sister ships to the R for Renaissance class being used by Oceania.

[herb]

And Princess seems to sell out most cruises on Tahitian Princess & Pacific Princess,

 

not because of the ship size, but because of it's itinerary TAHITI

Boy, would we love to go there, but the flight is 13 hours nonstop from NYC and costs a fortune! :(

[Himself]

Being owned by Carnival is having its affect

[RevNeal]

Can anyone here name a small Ocean-going Cruise ship that was built recently, say in the past 10 years??

 

Define small.

I don't see people saying they want tiny ships, they want the Medium-sized ships that HAL has sailed for a decade, now -- the 55,000 - 60,000 tonnage range with 1258 - 1432 passengers (i.e., the S and R class ships).

 

HAL built 1 S and all the R class vessels within the last 10 years ... the Zaandam and the Amsterdam were the last of the R ships, both launched in 2000.

 

I think most HAL Mariners would be pleased with another few ships in the S and R size range.

[JimandStan]

Truthfully, guys, these "The darned ships are getting to big" threads are getting almost as tired as the "can I bring liquor aboard" threads.....

Let's face it, the cruise lines are ALL building bigger and bigger ships because of economy of scale, and because the marketplace is demanding more and better onboard amenities with every successive newbuild.

The Cruise lines are trying to sell boat rides for a profit, they give us what the market demands, and discard the unprofitable, heartlessly.

Rather than offering smaller ships that cater to a wealthier more discriminating passenger, I believe that the trend is going to be upgrading the Suites (and the staff that serves them) dramatically, and

re-instituting the class system.

Oh, they won't call it First, Second and Third class, anymore, the marketplace simply woudn't stand for it; but, the change toward classes is definately coming.

Just look at how many changes have already made us ready for a division of passengers:

• 
  
  • They begin by offering "concierge" cabins where high end passengers get priority restaurant reservations (Hal already offers this for Pinnacle)
  • The next generation of ships will have different grades of restaurants to serve the different cabin categories (Cunard already operates on this system)
    
  • Then we will see special "spa decks" for the high end folks. (I believe that Prinsendam already offers a "suites only" hot tub deck).
    
  • and, finally, specialized embarcation lobbies so that the "priority boarding" set won't need to mingle with the riff raff at all. (Admit it, you "Suite Passengers" just adore that priority boarding!)
    

I don't believe that the entertainments will ever be segregated by class, again; but, I could see a situation where the "suite people" sit cabaret style in the orchestra section of the showroom, while the regular cabins are seated, theater stlye in the balcony.

 

Feel free to disagree with me, but remember, you heard it here, first!

[RevNeal]

The new class of vessels will include a deck soley dedicated to various restaurants that passengers will have to pay various degrees of extra fees to dine in.

 

This does not match the Holland America Press release dealing with the Signature Class. Of note from that release is the following statement:

 

The ships of the Signature Class will evolve from the line's Vista Class ships and further define and expand the Holland America Line premium brand with new concepts such as an innovative topside 144-seat restaurant and 50-seat lounge surrounded by panoramic views overlooking the ocean expanse and the Lido pool. Other additions are an Explorer's Lounge Bar, a premium wine-tasting lounge, an elegant luxury jewelry boutique, new atrium bar area, enhanced and reconfigured show lounge, and a new photographic and imaging center.

 

In other words, it sounds like there is going to be an additional restaurant aboard the ship, not unlike the Pinnacle Grill, but located above the Vista class' Observation Deck, along with an new observation lounge with panoramic views of the open ocean and the Lido Pool. This does NOT sound like an NCL restaurant deck, nor does it sound like HAL is becoming NCL.

 

I'm sorry, but in my opinion you're drawing unwarranted conclusions and taking on an unmerited alarmist tone.

[RevNeal]

enhanced and reconfigured show lounge

 

Maybe this means they're getting rid of the pillars that block the view.

[gizmo]

Hi Bruce,

 

It is a well known fact in the cruise industry that small ships cannot make a profit. Their fixed costs are nearly equal to the costs of a much larger ship - without the larger customer base to support them.

Can you back this up with numbers and documentation?

 

Are you implying all of Hal's ships are loosing money?

 

Can anyone here name a small Ocean-going Cruise ship that was built recently, say in the past 10 years?? There are none. And it is extremely unlikely that we will see any in the future.

 

What is small? I think most on this board consider S and R class ships small compared to the monsters out there. Maybe medium is a better description.

 

 

But if they get the idea that you are trying to get something for nothing; that is, trying to get a 2006 cruise at 1967 prices, it just hastens the end of small ship cruising.

I don't see where this comes into the picture. No one said anything about 1967 prices.

[steviek49]

I believe we all better get used to bigger ships. Most Mainstream cruiselines keep their ships on average for 12-15 years before they are transferred or sold. The S class will be reaching that age pretty soon. With 4 new slightly larger ships on order (or so I hear) I believe it will not be too long before most if not all of the S class to be replaced by the "new larger" class.

Also almost all mainstream cruiselines are following NCL with more restaurants. Criticize NCL all you want but their "new 92,000 ton ships(Star, Dawn,Jewel, Pride of Hawaii, and soon Gem and Pearl) are well reviewed by writers and well recieved by the public. Most have 10 different restaurants and contrary to what many say- only 2-3 cost xtra. Therefore on a 7 night cruise you can eat at a different restaurant each night of your week long cruise.

Of course, Service is not on par with HAL or X or Princess but they now have a pretty good mainstream product and other cruiselines are following their trends (restaurants and many new US ports departures saving airfare costs).

Back to HAL- it's quite possible that in just a few years they will have 4 "R" class ships, 4 Vista class ships, 4 "new class(signature) ships" and the Prisendam for longer cruises.

By the way- this is not fact - just my thoughts

[herb]

It's a pity though, that across the board, the vast majority of these new "enhancements" that cruiseships are so proud of and bringing to our attention are all extra charge!

[Bodger]

new concepts such as an innovative topside 144-seat restaurant and 50-seat lounge surrounded by panoramic views overlooking the ocean expanse and the Lido pool

 

Greg, if I were a betting man I would wager that 144 seat restaurant comes with a surcharge, a la Pinnacle.

 

Bodger

[bepsf]

Apparently Holland America will be taking a page out of the NCL playbook with their newest class of ships due in a few years.

 

The new class of vessels will include a deck soley dedicated to various restaurants that passengers will have to pay various degrees of extra fees to dine in. This, combined with a higher passenger capacity than Vista Class ships, will usher in a HAL that greatly departs from the great line that so many fell in love with just 5 short years ago. It looks like there will be very little distinguishing the experience onboard the new HAL in comparison with Princess and NCL.

 

I hoped that HAL might return to something resembling the S and R class vessels, but I guess those just aren't profitable enough.

 

Slove

 

Excuse me - but where did you get these ideas from?

 

The new restaurant will be built very much like the one atop P&O's new Arcadia - the ship that was originally intended to be HAL's Vista #4, then moved over to Cunard, etc.:

 

A larger, easier to view photo is here:

http://www.gibraltarport.com/gallery/Arcadia.jpg

 

That hardly consititutes the vision of "...a deck soley dedicated to various restaurants that passengers will have to pay various degrees of extra fees to dine in"

 

Sure there will be more pax - 2044 total on an 86,000 ton ship resulting in a pax/space ratio of slightly more than 42 tons/pax - still a darned good ratio, considering that most of the space being added is for passengers sleep in and roam about in.

 

Frankly, it would be irresponsible for any company to build new ships that are more expensive to operate per passenger than their existing tonnage, especially considering the greater expense to build new tonnage due to the increases in raw material and labor costs as well as unfavorable currency exchange rates - but that's what you're asking HAL to do. Name me a single company (excluding Cunard) that has announced plans to build a smaller ship than it already has in the fleet. Don't forget that first and foremost, HAL is a division of a publicly traded company with responsibilities to its owner/shareholders (probably including you, through your 401(k) or mutual funds), not a 503© non-profit benefiting your vacation experience.

 

Many other companies have gone out of business recently because they tried to make a go of it by sticking with smaller/older ships (Premier, Regency, Rennaisance). I for one am sure glad HAL isn't taking your advice, or they'd become just one of many house-flags consigned to the dustbin of history...

[BruceMuzz]

Druke I,

 

So you think Oceania is "doing well"??

Would you like to purchase stock in the company?

Despite a very nice product, and rather high prices, they have not seen a penny of profit since day 1.

 

Seabourn, despite an excellent product and rather astronomical prices, has never seen a profit in it's entire, rather long history. If Carnival's big ship profits were not there to cover the red ink, Seabourn would be long gone.

 

Sea Goddess - another very good product - bled to death.

Despite detting a sweetheart deal on those two ships, the new incarnation is in the red.

 

Renaissance went bust several times before they finally gave up.

 

What do all these ships have in common? They are all small.

 

Are the smaller HAL ships losing money. I personally don't know. I have never been involved with them. But as a long-time industry insider, I would be very surprised if they are doing more than breaking even.

 

Most cruise lines are publicly traded companies. They are required to open their books (to some degree) to the general public. You can probably Google them and get some pretty good info on the numbers.

 

What is a small ship?

To those of us in the industry, anything smaller than about 60,000 tons.

 

What is a medium-sized ship?

Once again, in the industry, anything from 60,000 tons to about 110,000 tons.

 

What is a big ship?

Anywhere from 110,000 tons to the new RCI at 220,000 tons.

 

On the positive side, HAL has a very nice lineup of small ships that are relatively new - and probably already paid for. HAL also is building a nice lineup of new bigger ships that are quite profitable, and can cover the lack of profits on their small ships. It is unlikely that HAL will be in a hurry to divest of those nice small ships, even though they are not exactly flushing the company with money. HAL Cruisers should be very happy that the future of small ship cruisinig with HAL will most likely be nicely subsidized by the bigger HAL ships. And isn't choice wonderful? Since nobody at HAL is forcing us to sail on the bigger ships, we can stay on the small ones, but still enjoy all the financial benefits anyway.

 

Progress is usually exciting, sometimes scary, and not always a positive thing. When the railroads were first being built in America, there was a huge public outcry about them. Many people claimed that God had never intended for man to travel as fast as 13 miles per hour on a machine.

 

Perhaps some of us here were born in the wrong century.

[SueSea]

Being owned by Carnival is having its affect

 

This sentiment is getting tired. Whenever HAL changes something that traditionalists don't like, it's blamed on Carnival Corp. The fact of the matter is that after Carnival bought HAL, for many years HAL kept its own unique identity. Why would Carnival buy a cruise line to compete with Celebrity and then Carnivalize it, thus losing the premium market? While there is no doubt that HAL is changing, it seems much more likely that the changing market is the driver.

 

The fact is that after 9/11, the entire cruise industry took a big downturn. ALL cruise lines had to deeply discount fares to attract passengers. The net effect was a reduction in quality and an increased reliance on onboard spending. Cruise lines couldn't raise fares to offer additional features which would attract more passengers, so they instituted extra charges for them. The additional features would be there for those who wanted them, and those who didn't want to use them were not subsidizing those who did.

 

Those cruise lines that couldn't adapt to the lengthy downturn went out of business. Imagine HAL trying to outlast that long period of low fares without Carnival Corp's deep pockets and economies of scale. Some may demonize Carnival Corp. for changing HAL, but even without CC, HAL still would have had to change. And if they didn't change, or perhaps even if they did, they may have gone bankrupt.

 

No business can stay solvent very long if it does not change to meet economic and market conditions. To those who say they miss the traditional HAL experience, I say if HAL hadn't changed, you still wouldn't have the traditional HAL experience today because they would be out of business.

 

And to those who complain about nickel & diming, here's an interesting article: http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/consumer/NickelDime.cfm

Among other things it compares the cost of cruising in 1984 and 2002/2003 as follows--incredible, especially when you note that these figures are NOT adjusted for inflation!

In 1984, a seven-night cruise on the Norway was $1,879 per person in a mid-level ocean-view cabin.

In 2002 or 2003, a seven-night cruise on the Norway is $849 per person in a suite or $649 for an ocean-view cabin.

[iceman93]

It's a pity though, that across the board, the vast majority of these new "enhancements" that cruiseships are so proud of and bringing to our attention are all extra charge!

 

It's either that or offer all the new amenities for free, with base cruise fares increased instead. With the current approach, bargain cruisers can still afford to go while those who appreciate more luxury and more varied experiences can pay slightly more for the privilege.