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Interesting article/Miami Herald

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On 5/17/2020 at 3:23 PM, tallnthensome said:

Link doesn’t work for me ....

The link opened for me on Google Chrome! 😉

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, npcl said:

Yes they would but let me also give you the CDC's own words on that 

 

Requiring a signed attestation helps ensure that the information provided by cruise officials as a condition of disembarking or transferring crew is truthful and accurate. By signing the legal attestation documents, cruise line officials certify that the information they provided to CDC is truthful and accurate. If the information is not truthful and accurate, these officials are subject to the criminal penalty provisions of 18 U.S.C. § 1001. It is common to ask corporate officials in other settings to certify that statements made to the U.S. Government on behalf of the corporate entity are true and correct, such as in a Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filing or when seeking payment reimbursement under Medicare.

 

 

As far as when the legal penalties would apply they state only if  the information is not true and accurate

 

CDC requires cruise lines to sign an attestation form to verify that the information they provide to CDC is true and accurate. Legal penalties would only be applied if the cruise line knowingly submitted a false statement, which could pose further risk to the public’s health.

 

A far different comment then your claim above that they  Lets  see how you put it

Formula280SS

Sorry, but the US was requiring the cruise line management and governance to be criminally and civilly and personal liable for any crew member related spread of C19 upon transfer from US ports.  That's why they (all of the lines) left a couple weeks ago to task up at their private islands and plan for alternate way to get crew home.

 

Nothing in the CDC requirements about being personally liable for any crew member related spread of COVID.

They are liable for not telling the truth in the attestation and I can see how that goes against the character of some of the cruiseline execs.  But as I posted earlier the CDc is maintaining a roster of all of the cases where they have signed them

 

 

Thanks for agreeing.  How "short" are you on NCLH?

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

Edited by Formula280SS

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, npcl said:

You should really get your attributions correct you seem for some reason to think that I said things that were really part of your discussion with FSHAGAN

 

For example I never said anything about "No, that's not how this works. The Federal government has no police powers for health issues" tha t was FSHAGAN as you could easily find.

 

I also never said that CDC was not part of the federal government, nor was I a participant in the red state portion of the discussion.

 

So let me remind you.

 

I entered the discussion when you stated that the port of Miami was dead without cruise in post 7 and referenced the 43 billion impact to the state of Florida.

 

To which I responded in post 35 that the port was also a cargo port that the cargo portion had more economic impact. 

 

To which you went away from the port of Miami and listed the state wide impact of cruise industry in post 38

 

To which I also went state wide to point out in post 41 the relative impact of cargo on the state compared to Cruise industry.

I did make the point that Florida could quite easily survive without the cruise industry and could actually get more growth converting the cruise ports to cargo ports

 

Which of course you jumped in posts 43 with your yikes comment that the discussion was about Florida leading the way (funny you brought up port economics first) and somehow saying I wanted cruise ports to close because I indicated that Florida did have other options. Which of course a 1 trillion dollar economy does.

 

Now your last post seems to have gone somewhat off the rails confusing FSHAGAN and my posts.

 

So at least please keep the posters straight otherwise it comes a cross as a bit erratic.

 

It is not I that is "off the rails" or "not keeping the posters straight."   Keep up the good "work."

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

Edited by Formula280SS

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6 hours ago, Formula280SS said:

 

Thanks for agreeing.  How "short" are you on NCLH?

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

Nope certainly not in agreement with your post

 

Formula280SS

Sorry, but the US was requiring the cruise line management and governance to be criminally and civilly and personal liable for any crew member related spread of C19 upon transfer from US ports.  That's why they (all of the lines) left a couple weeks ago to task up at their private islands and plan for alternate way to get crew home.

 

Nothing that I posted supported your rather over the top post that " management and governance to be criminally and civilly and personal liable for any crew member related spread of C19 upon transfer from US ports"

 

For that matter you have not posted anything to substantiate that claim either.

 

No, I am not short any cruise lines, why are you long NCLH?

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6 hours ago, Formula280SS said:

 

It is not I that is "off the rails" or "not keeping the posters straight."   Keep up the good "work."

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

I am sure that any readers of this stream can make their own determination about how accurately you were attributing posts to the actual poster in the previous post.

 

Will be interesting to see what CLIA claims for the economic impact of cruise lines on the state of Florida for 2020 or for that matter 2021.  I will be surprised if in 2021 it makes it to even half of the 2019 figure. At least not until a vaccine is widely available. 

 

I notice that at least now you are sticking to real data sources instead of your original claim that the Port of Miami was dead with out cruising and tried to tie its 43 billion economic impact to cruise lines, instead of the correct 4-5 billion with the rest being cargo. I notice you dropped that claim.

 

When Florida starts up, it will not be because of the past economic impact, nor the relationship between red and blue states that you spent time on arguing with FSHAGAN.  It will be for a very simple reason it is the only place in the US where cruise ships could reach a location that is likely to let them stop (the private islands in the Bahama's) and due 3-5 day cruises. 

 

The cruise lines are continuing to alienate the very Caribbean islands that they will need when they start up again.

 

 

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2 hours ago, npcl said:

Nope certainly not in agreement with your post

 

Formula280SS

Sorry, but the US was requiring the cruise line management and governance to be criminally and civilly and personal liable for any crew member related spread of C19 upon transfer from US ports.  That's why they (all of the lines) left a couple weeks ago to task up at their private islands and plan for alternate way to get crew home.

 

Nothing that I posted supported your rather over the top post that " management and governance to be criminally and civilly and personal liable for any crew member related spread of C19 upon transfer from US ports"

 

For that matter you have not posted anything to substantiate that claim either.

 

No, I am not short any cruise lines, why are you long NCLH?

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

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2 hours ago, npcl said:

I am sure that any readers of this stream can make their own determination about how accurately you were attributing posts to the actual poster in the previous post.

 

Will be interesting to see what CLIA claims for the economic impact of cruise lines on the state of Florida for 2020 or for that matter 2021.  I will be surprised if in 2021 it makes it to even half of the 2019 figure. At least not until a vaccine is widely available. 

 

I notice that at least now you are sticking to real data sources instead of your original claim that the Port of Miami was dead with out cruising and tried to tie its 43 billion economic impact to cruise lines, instead of the correct 4-5 billion with the rest being cargo. I notice you dropped that claim.

 

When Florida starts up, it will not be because of the past economic impact, nor the relationship between red and blue states that you spent time on arguing with FSHAGAN.  It will be for a very simple reason it is the only place in the US where cruise ships could reach a location that is likely to let them stop (the private islands in the Bahama's) and due 3-5 day cruises. 

 

The cruise lines are continuing to alienate the very Caribbean islands that they will need when they start up again.

 

 

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

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8 minutes ago, Formula280SS said:

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

Sounds like a lot of jobs and money is on the line. Just imagine how many more jobs and money these resort towns would get without people just passing through and decide to vacation there for a week or two.  

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3 minutes ago, Sam Ting said:

Sounds like a lot of jobs and money is on the line. Just imagine how many more jobs and money these resort towns would get without people just passing through and decide to vacation there for a week or two.  

 

You're right.  It hasn't been mentioned the amount of money spent on flying to Florida, pre and post trips to Florida attractions (Disney World, Universal, Sea World and so many other), hotel stays pre and post, dining pre and post, transportation pre and post.

 

Thanks.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Sam Ting said:

Sounds like a lot of jobs and money is on the line. Just imagine how many more jobs and money these resort towns would get without people just passing through and decide to vacation there for a week or two.  

That is exactly why you are seeing places focus on opening up land tourism first.

 

New Zealand is now talking about going to a 4 day work week to make things easier for more local tourism.

 

Saint Lucia is starting to open up to land tourism, but with very tight restrictions such as maks, specific reports, testing within 48 hours of arrival.  Lots more revenue for lower risk than cruise ship calls.

Edited by npcl

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13 minutes ago, Formula280SS said:

 

You're right.  It hasn't been mentioned the amount of money spent on flying to Florida, pre and post trips to Florida attractions (Disney World, Universal, Sea World and so many other), hotel stays pre and post, dining pre and post, transportation pre and post.

 

Thanks.

Actually CLIA does include flights, ground transportation, pre and post trip stays and dining,  into the calculations that you posted repeatedly.  Where do you think the job numbers come from.  It is all of the supporting activities taking place before the people even climb on the ship.  So for Florida is is included in the 7 billion figure you keep referencing.

 

After all the paper you referenced above just happened to include in its economic calculations

 

➢ spending by cruise passengers and crew for goods and services associated with cruise ship arrivals at U.S. ports, including travel to the port of embarkation, pre- and post-cruise vacation spending, shore excursions, food and beverages and other retail;

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35 minutes ago, Formula280SS said:

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

Nothing new.  No real support for some of your earlier statements. Not surprising.

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58 minutes ago, Sam Ting said:

Sounds like a lot of jobs and money is on the line. Just imagine how many more jobs and money these resort towns would get without people just passing through and decide to vacation there for a week or two.  

 

 

Just for comparison Disney World  generates over 18.2 billion for Florida's economy per year (more than twice what the entire cruise industry contributes to the state)

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13 hours ago, npcl said:

Actually CLIA does include flights, ground transportation, pre and post trip stays and dining,  into the calculations that you posted repeatedly.  Where do you think the job numbers come from.  It is all of the supporting activities taking place before the people even climb on the ship.  So for Florida is is included in the 7 billion figure you keep referencing.

 

After all the paper you referenced above just happened to include in its economic calculations

 

➢ spending by cruise passengers and crew for goods and services associated with cruise ship arrivals at U.S. ports, including travel to the port of embarkation, pre- and post-cruise vacation spending, shore excursions, food and beverages and other retail;

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

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14 hours ago, Sam Ting said:

Sounds like a lot of jobs and money is on the line. Just imagine how many more jobs and money these resort towns would get without people just passing through and decide to vacation there for a week or two.  

 

Yep.

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13 hours ago, npcl said:

 

 

Just for comparison Disney World  generates over 18.2 billion for Florida's economy per year (more than twice what the entire cruise industry contributes to the state)

 

Ok, we get it; you hate NCL, specifically, and the cruise lines in general.  Must be very "short" on the stocks.

 

Will stick with my own position.

 

CLIA reports for 2019, the Florida cruise industry impacts for 2019 accounted for 154,646 Total Employment Impact, $7,689,000,000 in Total Wage Impact and $8,485,000,000 in other Direct Expenditures.

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/research-updates/research/contribution-of-the-international-cruise-industry-to-the-us-economy-2018.pdf

 

Page 45

 

So, regarding the post, I still maintain that cruise ports in Florida will lead the way and that such ports are very important economic revenue sources for such ports' cities and the state of Florida.

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On 5/17/2020 at 4:36 PM, Formula280SS said:

Port of Miami is dead without Cruises.  Period.

Considering Miami is the 12th largest container port in the US, I don't think it is "dead" without cruises.

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On 5/17/2020 at 7:12 PM, PortFees45 said:

Gotcha and who should I blame for the BLATANTLY FALSE threat that crew members could be subject to CRIMINAL PROSECUTION for disseminating info about what's happening on the ship - a shameless and unethical strong arm move meant to further frighten a group of already frightened, powerless people into corporate subservience. 

Are you an expert in Bahamian and Panamanian law?  Or maritime law?  Have you seen a crew "article of agreement" or "contract" to know what terms are in them?  If not, how can you say that the threat is "blatantly false"?  Most companies, even in the US, have statements in either employment agreements or in company HR policy manuals relating to use of social media in regards to company policies, practices, etc, and the punishments for violating these.  This is without regard to the fact that the crew's employment contract is based not on US law, but on the laws of the flag state, which can have far different protections for what US citizens consider their civil rights.

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On 5/17/2020 at 5:09 PM, PortFees45 said:

The crews (prisoners at this point) are being treated poorly, and that's putting it VERY mildly. Some of them are literally killing themselves to escape this Kafka-esque nightmare. Try having some empathy? 

So, who is to blame for these crew being held on the ship?  Is it the CDC who has singled out the crew on cruise ships as being a significantly higher risk to the health care industry in the US than the rest of the 1.6 million merchant mariners, regardless of nationality, who have been deemed "essential workers" by the US government and all US states, and who are entitled to unrestricted travel on commercial means, or the cruise lines who don't want to put up with the discriminatory requirements placed on crew who have been in quarantine longer than any federal or state jurisdiction requires, and who have been placed under far more restrictive and costly requirements than any other international traveler making a connection in a US city.

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On 5/18/2020 at 5:24 AM, blcruising said:

The US has been closed to cruise ships since April 9. The government has issued specific guidance outlining how to disembark crew. The cruiselines decided that following the guidance was too expensive and impractical, which very well may be true.

 

I agree with your assessment of low risk, but this is not a US issue. You have a situation involving non-US flagged vessels with an overwhelming majority of non-US citizens. We are more than 30 days beyond the April 9 no sail date. If there are still crew "stuck" onboard, that is not a good situation. The employer has not taken necessary steps to get its employees home. We don't have to agree with the US mandate, but at some point, we have to stop blaming the US for crew still "stuck" onboard one month after the US mandate was issued.

And yet, as I've said above, the US government, via the USCG, it's parent the Department of Homeland Security, and every other federal agency, as well as every state in the union, have declared merchant mariners to be essential workers and are allowed to travel to/from their home countries and ships in the US, regardless of nationality (with some special restrictions based on the foreign country) using public transportation and commercial airlines.  Only cruise ship crew are singled out for this treatment.  

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1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

And yet, as I've said above, the US government, via the USCG, it's parent the Department of Homeland Security, and every other federal agency, as well as every state in the union, have declared merchant mariners to be essential workers and are allowed to travel to/from their home countries and ships in the US, regardless of nationality (with some special restrictions based on the foreign country) using public transportation and commercial airlines.  Only cruise ship crew are singled out for this treatment.  

It is ok to disagree with the policy. But the point I am making is....the policy is what it is. It has been since April now. Blame the US for a policy you may not agree with. Don't blame the US if crew are still stuck on ships. At this point, that blame lies solely and squarely with the cruise lines who have not taken alternative measures to repatriate crew.

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11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, who is to blame for these crew being held on the ship?  Is it the CDC who has singled out the crew on cruise ships as being a significantly higher risk to the health care industry...

The ships were free to sail anywhere in the world to repatriate crew ( other than US ports). Not a US issue. Sail to Nassau or Bermuda and fly them home from there. Transfer crew amongst ships and sail them to a close to home port. All the CDC has done is say....if you want to use a US port, you are going to follow our rules, even if you don't like them. Otherwise, you are free to use whatever means you'd like. Sorry, can't blame CDC just because you don't like their rules.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, blcruising said:

The ships were free to sail anywhere in the world to repatriate crew ( other than US ports). Not a US issue. Sail to Nassau or Bermuda and fly them home from there. Transfer crew amongst ships and sail them to a close to home port. All the CDC has done is say....if you want to use a US port, you are going to follow our rules, even if you don't like them. Otherwise, you are free to use whatever means you'd like. Sorry, can't blame CDC just because you don't like their rules.

First off, the Bahamas has closed their borders completely, and are not allowing anyone in, so no crew changes there.  Most ports around the world do not allow crew changes at all, and this has become such a problem that the IMO is working with member nations to correct this.  Ships are stacked up in Manila Bay with Filipino crew who are not allowed to leave the ship into their home country, so even sailing ships to other countries is not working.  But, my question is, what makes a cruise ship crew member any different than a container ship crew member, in terms of risk to the health care system in the port where the crew member wishes to crew change?  Please explain that to me.  Because that container ship crew, who may have been in a foreign port 3 days before entering a US port, is free to travel with only an attestation from the ship's Master that there are no crew onboard exhibiting symptoms of covid.  And, that crew member is free to use commercial air, and mingle in airports just like any other international traveler.

 

I was allowed to fly from my ship in Texas to Maine with no questions asked, no restrictions on what flights or public transportation I used, and with a "self-quarantine" when I reached Maine that included no information taken when I landed as to where I came from, where I was going, or where I was going to quarantine myself.  Am I any less a threat to the health care system in the US than a cruise ship crew member?

Edited by chengkp75

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2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

First off, the Bahamas has closed their borders completely, and are not allowing anyone in, so no crew changes there.  Most ports around the world do not allow crew changes at all, and this has become such a problem that the IMO is working with member nations to correct this.  Ships are stacked up in Manila Bay with Filipino crew who are not allowed to leave the ship into their home country, so even sailing ships to other countries is not working.  But, my question is, what makes a cruise ship crew member any different than a container ship crew member, in terms of risk to the health care system in the port where the crew member wishes to crew change?  Please explain that to me.  Because that container ship crew, who may have been in a foreign port 3 days before entering a US port, is free to travel with only an attestation from the ship's Master that there are no crew onboard exhibiting symptoms of covid.  And, that crew member is free to use commercial air, and mingle in airports just like any other international traveler.

I can't answer your question about cruise vs container ships. Admittedly I'm not following cruise industry as closely as I have in the past. So, if the US is policy more lenient than Bahamas and Manila, not sure what the argument is here. US will allow crew to disembark if they follow rules. Bahamas and Manila are outright closed to crew?

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2 minutes ago, blcruising said:

I can't answer your question about cruise vs container ships. Admittedly I'm not following cruise industry as closely as I have in the past. So, if the US is policy more lenient than Bahamas and Manila, not sure what the argument is here. US will allow crew to disembark if they follow rules. Bahamas and Manila are outright closed to crew?

Yes, Bahamas does not allow anyone into the country, at all.  Manila is not allowing foreign crew changes, and is requiring a 14 day quarantine for their returning citizens before entering the country, hence the 25 ships parked in Manila Bay with crew.

 

Yes, the US is more lenient with some ship's crews.  Any crew member, from any type of ship, from any country, except for cruise ship crew, are free to crew change at any US port, and free to travel home or to the ship using public transportation, without meeting any of the CDC's requirements for cruise ship crew only.  These cruise ship crew have been in quarantine longer than any US federal or state guideline requires, there has been no interchange of personnel showing symptoms in weeks, there has been no interaction with the population outside the ship for weeks, and there are no cases on the ships.  While I feel that the CDC's requirements were justified at the beginning, when passengers were being disembarked, and there were cases of covid on the ships, and the requirements were designed to essentially stop the exchange of passengers on and off the ships, holding the crew to these requirements after weeks of quarantine is merely punitive against the cruise lines, when other ships' crews who have not been in as rigorous quarantine as the cruise ships, and even international air travelers are not being held to these requirements.

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