Viking Expeditions Thread

[arlowood]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Interesting that the video does not record a "loud boom" as the woman describes.  MayAlso of interest to me is the "porpoising" penguin, which usually is a defense against predators.  I've kind of wondered since I heard the "explosion" happened under the boat, whether a leopard seal or orca surfaced under them.  It's hard to know if the shot of penguins was continuous with the video of the boat jumping in the air, or whether she didn't capture the "explosion" and only the aftermath.  Will be interesting to get all statements from everyone on the boat, and the inspection of the boat.

 

And, I'm not disputing what they experienced, or saying that they are inaccurate in their description, just that it opens more questions in my mind.

This has been my train of thought since I first heard of the Zodiac incident and the subsequent news reports and comments in this thread. Excluding the possibility of a fuel "explosion" based on the location of fuel storage tanks on this type of vessel then my thoughts drifted to the very remote possibility of a stray piece of ordinance left over from the Falklands War in the 1980's. But in that instance some form of floating mine would probably have wiped out the Zodiac completely rather than just pushing it upwards violently and buckling the floor.

 

As Chengkp75 indicates, if the "porpoising" penguins were observed at or around the time of the accident, then a surfacing predator could be a logical explanation for the what happened. Will be interesting to hear any other witness evidence .

[Doc who loves to travel]

17 hours ago, SightCRR said:

We have all seen the damage from the outside to the windows but I wonder if there was failure to the non structural bulkheads that may have contributed to the injuries.   

Yes non structural interior walls collapsed and the debris from the affected cabins moved aft to the farthest sixth cabin. 
 

https://www.luxurytraveldocs.com/2022/12/viking-polaris-has-tragic-accident.html

 

[RachelG]

My husband and I just learned that the captain of the Viking ship was one who we had sailed with on Silversea a couple of times and who we and others we frequently travel with felt had issues with judgment. We vowed never to sail with her again.  

[Catlover54]

18 minutes ago, RachelG said:

My husband and I just learned that the captain of the Viking ship was one who we had sailed with on Silversea a couple of times and who we and others we frequently travel with felt had issues with judgment. We vowed never to sail with her again.  

 

Could you elaborate?

[BobCatter]

1 hour ago, RachelG said:

My husband and I just learned that the captain of the Viking ship was one who we had sailed with on Silversea a couple of times and who we and others we frequently travel with felt had issues with judgment. We vowed never to sail with her again.  

 

Please put some context around this. What did you consider examples of her bad judgement?

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, BobCatter said:

 

Please put some context around this. What did you consider examples of her bad judgement?

And, while you are entitled to your opinion, what are your qualifications and knowledge of the company's ISM Code, to know whether or not these decisions were actually sound seamanship, and/or within the requirements of the ISM?

[1985rz1]

28 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, while you are entitled to your opinion, what are your qualifications and knowledge of the company's ISM Code, to know whether or not these decisions were actually sound seamanship, and/or within the requirements of the ISM?

I agree.  I would rather trust the professionals than the armchair captains who do not have the expertise or the the full story second-guessing decisions.

Edited December 9, 2022 by 1985rz1

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, 1985rz1 said:

I agree.  I would rather trust the professionals than the armchair captains who do not have the expertise or the the full story second-guessing decisions.

And, the ISM gives the Master "overriding authority" when making decisions regarding the safety of the ship, passengers, crew, and environment, so even any experts ashore in the corporate office cannot second guess them.

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, RachelG said:

My husband and I just learned that the captain of the Viking ship was one who we had sailed with on Silversea a couple of times and who we and others we frequently travel with felt had issues with judgment. We vowed never to sail with her again.  

 

I look forward to reading some specifics and how the alleged judgement issues contravened the Company's Safety Management System and/or the "Ordinary Practice of Seamen". 

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And, the ISM gives the Master "overriding authority" when making decisions regarding the safety of the ship, passengers, crew, and environment, so even any experts ashore in the corporate office cannot second guess them.

 

In addition to not second guessing the Master, they must provide any assistance the Master requests.

[SJD117]

It didn’t take much effort to learn about the Polaris captain. She became Silversea’s first female captain in 2013. Now she’s Viking’s first female ocean captain. To this layman, she appears to have boatloads of relevant maritime experience, including in the Arctic and Antarctic. Someone like her wouldn’t be hired by Silversea, poached away fron Silversea, and put in charge of the Viking Polaris without this experience. Quite obviously, she’s fully qualified to do her job.

[RachelG]

I knew I would get hammered for mentioning our past cruises with the captain on Silversea.  But my husband and I are not the only ones who would not sail with her in charge again.  One example--we were in Svalbard.  She anchored the ship way far out, a good 3 miles from the landing site.  It was very rough and windy with sleet.  The zodiac ride was the roughest we ever experienced, downright scary,  and we have over 200 nights on expedition ships, including 4 trips to the Arctic and one to Antarctica, so we are aware of what to expect.  There were many elderly people who were getting bounced around in the zodiac and complaining.  

We had friends on another cruise on Silversea Explorer back in 2018 who basically just sailed around and never had any landings with multiple excuses made as to why-this was on a cruise supposed to go to Wrangel but they never even got close. Silversea ended up giving some large refunds on that cruise. 

When we sailed with her the last time, which would have been 2020 prior to covid, she was not the captain in charge, so I figured perhaps she had been demoted. 

 

 

 

[Newleno]

12 hours ago, arlowood said:

 

 

 if the "porpoising" penguins were observed at or around the time of the accident, then a surfacing predator could be a logical explanation for the what happened. Will be interesting to hear any other witness evidence .

As a first eye witness of the treacherous waters of Antarctica, I can assure you penguins "porpoise" all the time, predator or not.

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, RachelG said:

She anchored the ship way far out, a good 3 miles from the landing site.  It was very rough and windy with sleet.  The zodiac ride was the roughest we ever experienced, downright scary,  and we have over 200 nights on expedition ships, including 4 trips to the Arctic and one to Antarctica, so we are aware of what to expect.

 

15 minutes ago, RachelG said:

We had friends on another cruise on Silversea Explorer back in 2018 who basically just sailed around and never had any landings with multiple excuses made as to why-this was on a cruise supposed to go to Wrangel but they never even got close.

And, do you know whether these decisions were in accordance or in contravention of the company's ISM Code?  Or, even of local governmental regulations?  Oh,  right, you have no knowledge of what the company policies are.

 

15 minutes ago, RachelG said:

Silversea ended up giving some large refunds on that cruise. 

Many cruise lines give refunds when ports are canceled for various reasons, this does not indicate poor judgement on the part of the Captain.

 

15 minutes ago, RachelG said:

When we sailed with her the last time, which would have been 2020 prior to covid, she was not the captain in charge, so I figured perhaps she had been demoted.

So, it never crossed your mind that perhaps the Staff Captain that was due to go on the ship was ill, and they asked her to fill in?  Wow.

Edited December 10, 2022 by chengkp75

[SJD117]

37 minutes ago, RachelG said:

One example--we were in Svalbard.  She anchored the ship way far out, a good 3 miles from the landing site.  It was very rough and windy with sleet.  The zodiac ride was the roughest we ever experienced, downright scary,  and we have over 200 nights on expedition ships, including 4 trips to the Arctic and one to Antarctica, so we are aware of what to expect.  There were many elderly people who were getting bounced around in the zodiac and complaining. 

 

I’m going to Svalbard, too (next summer). I’m also “elderly” or close to it (at least my elderly friends tell me so). I fully expect Viking to anchor the ship where it’s safe and appropriate to do so. I also expect my elderly posterior to be jostled a bit — this is the North Atlantic, after all. But I will enjoy the trip nonetheless. You’re only elderly once!

[1985rz1]

33 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

And, do you know whether these decisions were in accordance or in contravention of the company's ISM Code?  Or, even of local governmental regulations?  Oh,  right, you have no knowledge of what the company policies are.

 

Many cruise lines give refunds when ports are canceled for various reasons, this does not indicate poor judgement on the part of the Captain.

 

So, it never crossed your mind that perhaps the Staff Captain that was due to go on the ship was ill, and they asked her to fill in?  Wow.

Thank you for posting this response.  I had thought about asking if the poster had any inside, factual knowledge as to why the decisions were made, and wanted to question whether her speculative conclusion about the captain's had any factual basis, but having someone with both experience and knowledge respinding is so much better.  Again, thank you.

[formernuke]

1 hour ago, RachelG said:

I knew I would get hammered for mentioning our past cruises with the captain on Silversea.  But my husband and I are not the only ones who would not sail with her in charge again.  One example--we were in Svalbard.  She anchored the ship way far out, a good 3 miles from the landing site.  It was very rough and windy with sleet.  The zodiac ride was the roughest we ever experienced, downright scary,  and we have over 200 nights on expedition ships, including 4 trips to the Arctic and one to Antarctica, so we are aware of what to expect.  There were many elderly people who were getting bounced around in the zodiac and complaining.  

We had friends on another cruise on Silversea Explorer back in 2018 who basically just sailed around and never had any landings with multiple excuses made as to why-this was on a cruise supposed to go to Wrangel but they never even got close. Silversea ended up giving some large refunds on that cruise. 

When we sailed with her the last time, which would have been 2020 prior to covid, she was not the captain in charge, so I figured perhaps she had been demoted. 

 

 

 

You're of course entitled to your observations and opinions, you were there. However I do find it interesting in the two examples you list, in one you imply she wasn't worried enough about safety and the other you implied she was overly cautious... So if it isn't what you think should have been done she's incompetent?

[cruiseej]

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, do you know whether these decisions were in accordance or in contravention of the company's ISM Code?  Or, even of local governmental regulations?  Oh,  right, you have no knowledge of what the company policies are.

 

Many judgment decisions can be questioned, or even criticized, without them having been a violation of company policy or the law. There's no need to attack Rachel because she shared her experience and opinion. She didn't accuse the captain of any violation of policy or law; she and others who were experienced expedition cruisers had what they felt found to be sub-standard experiences.

[SJD117]

38 minutes ago, cruiseej said:

 

Many judgment decisions can be questioned, or even criticized, without them having been a violation of company policy or the law. There's no need to attack Rachel because she shared her experience and opinion. She didn't accuse the captain of any violation of policy or law; she and others who were experienced expedition cruisers had what they felt found to be sub-standard experiences.

Rachel wrote in her first post that the then-Silversea captain had, quote, “issues with judgment.” It’s fair to ask Rachel what she meant by these so-called issues. It’s also fair to ask whether the captain’s judgment, as allegedly colored by the issues, violated any applicable law or Silversea policy. It was entirely appropriate for @chengkp75to ask these questions.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, RachelG said:

I knew I would get hammered for mentioning our past cruises with the captain on Silversea.  But my husband and I are not the only ones who would not sail with her in charge again.  One example--we were in Svalbard.  She anchored the ship way far out, a good 3 miles from the landing site.  It was very rough and windy with sleet.  The zodiac ride was the roughest we ever experienced, downright scary,  and we have over 200 nights on expedition ships, including 4 trips to the Arctic and one to Antarctica, so we are aware of what to expect.  There were many elderly people who were getting bounced around in the zodiac and complaining.  

We had friends on another cruise on Silversea Explorer back in 2018 who basically just sailed around and never had any landings with multiple excuses made as to why-this was on a cruise supposed to go to Wrangel but they never even got close. Silversea ended up giving some large refunds on that cruise. 

When we sailed with her the last time, which would have been 2020 prior to covid, she was not the captain in charge, so I figured perhaps she had been demoted. 

 

Your are entitled to your opinion, but further to the Chief's response, unfortunately your rationale confirms you have no understanding of ship anchoring procedures and RHIB operations. Yes, the distance to tender is a consideration, but as a convenience criteria, it is very low on the priority list, which focus on operational requirements, anchoring limitations and safety.

 

When anchoring, in most ports the Master does not decide where they will anchor, as most anchorages are assigned by the local authorities, specifically the harbourmaster. When the pilot arrives, the Master is informed which anchorage is assigned.

 

In ports with no Harbourmaster, the Master determines a safe anchorage, which includes, but is not limited to the following criteria:

 - Nautical publications, which are available on the Bridge may provide information on a recommended safe anchorage.

 - Anchorage positions notated on the chart. If more than 1 is notated, the Master can select the preferred anchorage, based on the conditions

 - Approach to the anchorage, with radar and/or visual approaches providing leading marks and ability to readily identify the position to drop anchor.

 - Depth of water is a key consideration, as it is the length of chain on the bottom that holds the ship. The anchor really only takes the chain to the bottom. Ships normally have 10 to 12 shackles of chain, with each shackle being 90'. The minimum chain required is 4x depth, but that increases significantly in deeper water with poor holding ground and wind/tide, when 8x to 10x depth may be required.

 - Holding power is a critical consideration, with this information provided on the charts

 - Weather/tide/current - the Master will endeavour to anchor in a lee, with minimal currents

 

Since you determined the Master used poor judgement in selecting the anchorage, I look forward to you supplying the facts that you used to determine that a better and safer option was available. 

 

RHIB operations have more risks than tender operations, but in heavy seas, I would rather be in a RHIB than a tender, and that is based on years of experience. On the West Coast of vancouver Island, we attend a RHIB course in the rough waters of the Pacific Ocean. These boats, provided the operator is trained are more than capable of handling these conditions. Unfortunately, not all pax can handle the conditions. You may have 200 nights on Expeditions ships, whereas I have almost 30 yrs experience as Master on ships with RHIB's.

 

Other than it was rough and you were scared, you didn't advise of any issues with damage or injuries, so I'll suggest the Master knew the capabilities of her crew and had confidence in their ability to get pax ashore safely. As a pax, you had the option to decline going ashore, as nobody forced you into the RHIB.

 

Your 2nd example mentions that she was overly cautious, so I'm having difficulty understanding how you can complain with not being cautious and then overly cautious to next time. BTW - do you know the contents of the Company SMS, as that knowledge is a pre-requisite in determining if the Master made any errors in judgement. As I have posted many times, the Master MUST follow the SMS, unless to ensure the safety of the ship, or preventing pollution.

 

Since you determined the Master made errors in judgement, since many SMS include an operational matrix providing guidance to the Masters, which ports did she miss that were within the guidelines of the Operational Matrix.

[LindaS272]

2 hours ago, RachelG said:

I knew I would get hammered for mentioning our past cruises with the captain on Silversea.  But my husband and I are not the only ones who would not sail with her in charge again.  One example--we were in Svalbard.  She anchored the ship way far out, a good 3 miles from the landing site.  It was very rough and windy with sleet.  The zodiac ride was the roughest we ever experienced, downright scary,  and we have over 200 nights on expedition ships, including 4 trips to the Arctic and one to Antarctica, so we are aware of what to expect.  There were many elderly people who were getting bounced around in the zodiac and complaining.  

We had friends on another cruise on Silversea Explorer back in 2018 who basically just sailed around and never had any landings with multiple excuses made as to why-this was on a cruise supposed to go to Wrangel but they never even got close. Silversea ended up giving some large refunds on that cruise. 

When we sailed with her the last time, which would have been 2020 prior to covid, she was not the captain in charge, so I figured perhaps she had been demoted. 

 

 

 

Sorry for your experiences. But they are just that—yours. And the many mariners here are showing why captains have to make the decisions they do. We were on the Jupiter in March 2020 rounding Cape Horn and while overcast, the sea was smooth as glass. Wouldn’t expect that to happen again. Perhaps you were lucky with your 200 nights on other expeditions.

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, cruiseej said:

 

Many judgment decisions can be questioned, or even criticized, without them having been a violation of company policy or the law. There's no need to attack Rachel because she shared her experience and opinion. She didn't accuse the captain of any violation of policy or law; she and others who were experienced expedition cruisers had what they felt found to be sub-standard experiences.

 

You are correct, the poster the Chief quoted did not accuse the Captain of violating any policy or law, she accused the Captain of having a "Lack of Judgement"

 

To determine that the Captain, a professional mariner, or any professional, has shown a lack of judgement requires the person making the determination to have some level of proficiency in the skills being questioned and most important, to have access to the facts used by the Captain, when she made the decisions.

 

Other than having a few months as a passenger on expedition ships, the poster clearly has no relevant skills as a Master Mariner and I doubt knew the facts used by the Master in making her decisions. Therefore, how can the poster make an informed assessment of the suitability of the Master's decision making.

 

Personally, I have no issue with pax saying they won't sail again as they didn't enjoy the cruise, as it didn't meet their expectations. However, I also question that the ride in the RHIB was a sub-standard experience, as exhibition cruises are meant to be challenging voyages, to the furthest reaches of the Earth. They aren't about smooth sailing, beaches and sunshine. If a choppy ride in a RHIB was sub-standard, I'll suggest the pax expectations of an exhibition cruise are somewhat unrealistic.

 

Having been in RHIB's in significantly worse seas and launched my crew in them many times, from experience they are safe, when handled by trained crew. In fact, I have had 2 RHIB's in the water in 35 kts, towing an inflated liferaft back to shore. I have no doubt some uninformed observers probably thought I showed lack of judgement, but I had weighed the risks and planned the operation in detail with the crew. Did they complain, not a bit, in fact they thanked me for having the confidence to let them display they could safely handle the boats.

[amyr]

I don’t have any nautical background other than lots of cruising - my career was an airline career - but as a layperson, I can’t imagine what any of what happened on Polaris has anything to do with the Captain’s decision making?  They had what seems like a freak accident on a zodiac, which will be investigated, and then the weather was too poor to get an evac airplane anywhere to pick up the injured person, so they were forced back across a very rough Drake Passage to disembark her?  There was a Ponant ship crossing just six hours behind Polaris, and a passenger reported that their crossing was just ghastly and that some of the crew said they’d never been in seas like it.  

 

We are on Octantis now, and we’ve had our own medical evacuation that’s thrown quite a wrench in our trip.  We had stellar stellar weather in the beginning, but had only managed one landing in the first three days even so.  On our third night down here, after a STUNNING sail through the Lemaire Channel at sunset, we began steaming out of the peninsula area in the middle of the night at a pretty good clip for King George Island.  That’s where the Chilean Base is, and where there’s an airstrip that can land an airplane from Punta Arenas.  We disembarked our passenger the next evening,  and were grateful for her that the airplane was able to make it in.  We then didn’t go back to the Antarctic Peninsula where the Windy app says the seas were still fine (blue) but where the crew here said “No, no, it was bad there too.”  Instead we have been puttering around in garbage weather near King George Island for two days.  We haven’t managed a landing since, and are hoping perhaps today will be the day.  If not today, tomorrow is our last chance.  

 

So, you can question decision making all you want, but none of us really knows what’s going into all of it.  A lot of people on Octantis now are questioning the decision to stay put up here, but who knows what the crew had to work with.  I do know they were trying hard to find a place to land yesterday, but every place was the same.  

 

I think the biggest decision failings on board this trip are from passengers that thought this would be the cruise for them.  Viking has required an extensive medical evaluation form for everybody that boards an Antarctic cruise, and it’s clear in looking around that some weren’t truthful about the condition of their health.  Obviously a medical event can happen to anyone anywhere, but the odds seem a lot higher with what I suspect is the average Viking Expeditions passenger.  When we woke up to the Captain saying we’d had a medical emergency, absolutely nobody was surprised.  

 

[1985rz1]

To me the point is that the OP questioned the judgment of the captain without any factual basis other than an unpleasant experience she and fellow pax had on an expedition adventure, and she intimated the captain may have been demoted on another cruise because of her judgment, again without any factual basis.

 

Reporting her unpleasant experience on a cruise is her right and is information that has a place on this board, but blaming the captain without knowing the facts does not.

 

[RachelG]

I was just stating my observations so that people would know the history.  I got attacked for doing so, so I will now go back to the Regent and Silversea boards where  opinions are not usually attacked.

 

BYW, my husband and I have been on VERY rough seas before, so much that an entire lunch buffet was thrown to the floor and on another occasion we were one of only two couples in the dining room at dinner, with chairs chained to the floor.  And on very rough zodiac rides, so to suggest that we just were up for the expedition part of the voyage is false.