Azamara excursions with a maximum age 70 rule

[Benthayer Gonbak]

14 minutes ago, Pizzasteve said:

I edited my post, as most likely arent interestef in rescue work.  The glacier hike was in Argentina.  We had just hiked the W Trek in Pategonia and found it pretty easy, but I guess this one required some climbing and rope skills they assumed a 50+ wouldnt be ok with.

 

Got it.  Please know that I appreciated your comment.  My mind jumped to our guide on a land tour that regularly ran in the alps, especially high altitudes, for conditioning.  
 

on my first Azamara I had a rollator which gave the shore people pause for Ephesus.  They let me go and after watching me there said they’d not protest anything else I wanted to try!  I told them I still needed their input about problems. Since that time my knee has been replaced, but at the time I could walk reasonably well except for balance.  Note too that Ephesus is certainly not flat enough for most people with rollators😉

[Benthayer Gonbak]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:15 AM, Rabidcruiser said:

I can understand the logic of both fit (over 70) cruisers and the tour providers here. i am 72 and know my limitations and would not now book certain energetic tours anyway, It is not clear as to just how few tours this"over 70" limit permits for each cruise and at what cost. My wife ( under 70) is now reluctant to book a cruise with Azamara ( a favorite line for many years pre pandemic) because this might limit us to just bus tours.

I see an irony in this as many ships tours were previously promoted by evidently young staff which did stretch some (unfit) persons ( of any age). Does Azamara now publish a list of all excursions , for each cruise showing which tours are allowed for over 70's which are not just a bus tour round town? I certainly would not to see an age discrimination set in stone as it breaches individual rights and in the UK at least  would be deemed illegal. The problem is ensuring that ALL people are aware of their own limitations and do not penalise the safety and enjoyment others with them. Simple age discrimination is NOT the way.

bicycles and Caribbean zip lines are the only places I’ve seen age limits.  Yes, I think the description was online so we knew which ones were limited.

 

i can tell you though, mistakes happen.  I signed up for a hike in Isle of Man which was a new port.  The trail was described as rough, which I interpreted from the rest was sort of a Billy goat trail.  It was listed as a .5 hike that took 2.5 hours and I believe moderate.  I figured I could crawl that far in that length of time if I had too.  Shortly after we got on board we receive a description that said the length was 5 miles.  I took the paper down to shore, who knew me, and before I could ask if this was correct or the first one they pleaded with me please don’t go.  I assured them if it was 5 miles I had no intension of going with that terrain.  It also turned out the moderate rating was not the ships but the local level!  I heard it was indeed strenuous by cruise ship standards, the 5 miles would generally cause that rating too.  Those that went seemed to enjoy the hike but fog prevented the views. 

 

 

[Pizzasteve]

3 hours ago, Benthayer Gonbak said:

bicycles and Caribbean zip lines are the only places I’ve seen age limits.  Yes, I think the description was online so we knew which ones were limited.

 

i can tell you though, mistakes happen.  I signed up for a hike in Isle of Man which was a new port.  The trail was described as rough, which I interpreted from the rest was sort of a Billy goat trail.  It was listed as a .5 hike that took 2.5 hours and I believe moderate.  I figured I could crawl that far in that length of time if I had too.  Shortly after we got on board we receive a description that said the length was 5 miles.  I took the paper down to shore, who knew me, and before I could ask if this was correct or the first one they pleaded with me please don’t go.  I assured them if it was 5 miles I had no intension of going with that terrain.  It also turned out the moderate rating was not the ships but the local level!  I heard it was indeed strenuous by cruise ship standards, the 5 miles would generally cause that rating too.  Those that went seemed to enjoy the hike but fog prevented the views. 

 

 

FYI, for regular hiking guide books, moderate is a fairly strenuous hike.  Remember, it is a hike, not a walk.  One assumes a base line of fitness and experience for a hike.  Moderate is usually an 'average' hike, meaning no scrambling and climbing or ropes needed. We are always a bit suprised when even easy rated hikes are pretty hard for many. Hard usually means ropes and scrambling on hands a knees may be needed.

 

If it is described as a 'walk', then a different standard usually applies.  

 

We hike regularly with 70+ aged hikers who manage maybe 9 miles and 1500 to 2000 feet of gain at 3.0 MPH.  So age and fitness dont have to be at odds, but regular work is needed to do it. If those numbers dont mean anything, you probably arent a hiker. 

 

That said, many people on cruise ships want shore excursions in nature, but probably arent regular hikers.  So we often assume stuff is watered down, which makes us sad.  It is excrutiating to wait for hours to go a few miles, just because some hills are in the way. If you need a cane or walker, maybe a hike is the wrong activity.

 

This is the way with exercise though.  I am a fan of self guided hikes, with some options to do more or less as suits the patron. If you want to see the Inca Trail, understand it is meant as a challenge, even to the original native Incans.  Some training is really a requirement.  I saw on the trail poor porters having to carry heavy, inactive people who thought they were ok to climb mountains for 3 days at 5000 to 10000 ft. altitudes.

 

That said, wont be much hiking on our up and coming transatlantic on Azamara, except beforehand in Lisbon.  My lovely wife will be going up the stairs and down elevators a dozen times or more each day, as the best option.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Pizzasteve

[islandwoman]

 

9 hours ago, Pizzasteve said:

 My lovely wife will be going up the stairs and down elevators a dozen times or more each day, as the best option.

The easiest way to maintain a minimum level of fitness on a cruise is to never ever take the up elevators.  Even at home, it helps to have stairs.  I am sad to see that in at least one senior community I know of, none of the houses have stairs.  I understand that some residents can't do stairs from the time they move in, but the rest are just going to lose fitness unless they make a special effort to exercise.

[Ithikan]

I have battled the age restrictions placed upon bicycle tours - both private tours and Azamara's - for years.  At one point I enlisted the help of then CBO Bonnie, who ran interference for us.  Long story short, we achieved bicycle tours while at port in Brisbane, Hvar, Russell, Guernsey, Gisborne, Napier, and Tauranga.  We've another New Zealand/Australia cruise coming up and we won't repeat the ONE Azamara bike tour offering (it was wonderful, but looking for something different this time), but I am certainly disappointed that those moderately active, shore-intensive, fresh-air excursions have pretty much disappeared.

[Benthayer Gonbak]

11 hours ago, Pizzasteve said:

FYI, for regular hiking guide books, moderate is a fairly strenuous hike.  Remember, it is a hike, not a walk.  One assumes a base line of fitness and experience for a hike.  Moderate is usually an 'average' hike, meaning no scrambling and climbing or ropes needed. We are always a bit suprised when even easy rated hikes are pretty hard for many. Hard usually means ropes and scrambling on hands a knees may be needed.

 

If it is described as a 'walk', then a different standard usually applies.  

 

We hike regularly with 70+ aged hikers who manage maybe 9 miles and 1500 to 2000 feet of gain at 3.0 MPH.  So age and fitness dont have to be at odds, but regular work is needed to do it. If those numbers dont mean anything, you probably arent a hiker. 

 

That said, many people on cruise ships want shore excursions in nature, but probably arent regular hikers.  So we often assume stuff is watered down, which makes us sad.  It is excrutiating to wait for hours to go a few miles, just because some hills are in the way. If you need a cane or walker, maybe a hike is the wrong activity.

 

This is the way with exercise though.  I am a fan of self guided hikes, with some options to do more or less as suits the patron. If you want to see the Inca Trail, understand it is meant as a challenge, even to the original native Incans.  Some training is really a requirement.  I saw on the trail poor porters having to carry heavy, inactive people who thought they were ok to climb mountains for 3 days at 5000 to 10000 ft. altitudes.

 

That said, wont be much hiking on our up and coming transatlantic on Azamara, except beforehand in Lisbon.  My lovely wife will be going up the stairs and down elevators a dozen times or more each day, as the best option.

 

i hear you although I’ve seen a few with canes.  When I was able I used hiking sticks rather than a cane which was for balance.  My argument is just because I can no longer do some activities doesn’t mean others can’t!  Age is not what slowed me down!  I do think that age restrictions can eliminate a tour because there then aren’t enough people to take on the harder treks successfully.  I have  not selected tours that I could do because I was pretty sure I would not be able to do the pace set by the group, one was in the Galapagos.    
 

 

[Benthayer Gonbak]

1 hour ago, Ithikan said:

I have battled the age restrictions placed upon bicycle tours - both private tours and Azamara's - for years.  At one point I enlisted the help of then CBO Bonnie, who ran interference for us.  Long story short, we achieved bicycle tours while at port in Brisbane, Hvar, Russell, Guernsey, Gisborne, Napier, and Tauranga.  We've another New Zealand/Australia cruise coming up and we won't repeat the ONE Azamara bike tour offering (it was wonderful, but looking for something different this time), but I am certainly disappointed that those moderately active, shore-intensive, fresh-air excursions have pretty much disappeared.

I’m glad to hear some have succeeded.  I now find the highlight tours which just have photo stop more tiring than walking tours as most of your time is spent getting on and off busses that’s not only tiresome it’s boring!  I’ve only tried a few, but actual never really liked them! 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Benthayer Gonbak

[luv2travel90266]

Idea! How about they put us on the treadmill and check out our conditioning. Seems a better way to screen and separate out the capable cruisers and remind those to restrict the difficulty of the excursions chosen. Those in poor conditioning might already be aware based upon their cardiologist appointments. Age is an easy way to filter but is very inaccurate.  

[Benthayer Gonbak]

2 minutes ago, luv2travel90266 said:

Idea! How about they put us on the treadmill and check out our conditioning. Seems a better way to screen and separate out the capable cruisers and remind those to restrict the difficulty of the excursions chosen. Those in poor conditioning might already be aware based upon their cardiologist appointments. Age is an easy way to filter but is very inaccurate.  

i had in mind the cycling machines, but then I was thinking bicycle tours!  
 

when I was in college I applied for a life guard position in San Diego.  I was told that they only hired men because the life guards sometimes got rotated to the beach and women couldn’t handle the surf!  Clearly they’d never met many of the PE teachers and majors I knew!  It seemed to me like testing for life guard certification one need only add a surf certification!   

[luv2travel90266]

A spinning bike would give you the same proof of conditioning. I do spin classes 5 days a week. We have lots of seniors at our gym in the class who are in excellent condition. I also see people try the class and quit during or don't return an indication of their level of conditioning. Another great filter and reality check.  

 

Was also a lifeguard in college and remember bodysurfing the wedge. Older and wiser I do know my limitations now. 

 

[Benthayer Gonbak]

10 hours ago, luv2travel90266 said:

A spinning bike would give you the same proof of conditioning. I do spin classes 5 days a week. We have lots of seniors at our gym in the class who are in excellent condition. I also see people try the class and quit during or don't return an indication of their level of conditioning. Another great filter and reality check.  

 

Was also a lifeguard in college and remember bodysurfing the wedge. Older and wiser I do know my limitations now. 

 

oh my, that’s a little bit much for San Diego!  But yes, I know Newport beach is a bit north.  I’ve stayed in Redondo beach several times, but there was a jetty that made the water look calm.  As for spinning Dad can still do 25-30 minutes at 97.  He had to give up the gym because of COVID but has a bike at home. 

i get frustrated when I can’t get enough information about a tour.  Azamara used to be excellent about knowing those answers. On celebrity in Roseau there were pictures of the walk/hike to the waterfall overlook.  There were railroad ties with sand surfaces that made steps.  When we got there it was all tree roots, turned out there had been heavy rains that had washed the steps out.  I still made it and I made sure to tell shore the description picture needed updating!  The trail was still nice and still only cruise moderate. 

 

[Guest ldtr]

On 5/8/2021 at 11:55 AM, Cruizer Diana said:

 

 

Good discussion and lots of valid points. 

If required to stay in the bubble, we will have very limited experiences in general, and more so if over 70.  

 

I understand the comment about changing the pace or destination of a bike tour because someone did not read the fine print. We were ride leaders for the Cascade Bike club (host of the famous 200-mile Seattle-to-Portland bike ride). Many times people chose to ride at a pace much slower than the advertised/posted pace. Sometimes we altered the planned ride, but most of the time we just gave the riders a map and told them that there were pre-requisites for the ride. If Azamara required people to agree to specific terms, then they could choose not to hold the ride leaders responsible for rejecting people who did not meet the stated requirements. I guess, as usual, those who choose to ignore requirements are the winners.

 

By the way, the snorkeling excursion in St Barts has a minimum age of 8. I doubt most 8 year olds will have superior swimming skills or judgement...

 

I have taken snorkeling excursions through Holland America (HAL), Celebrity, and Royal Caribbean and have never seen that limitation. (Celebrity or RCCL might now, but didn’t in the past.) They do require you to fill out a health/fitness questionnaire. As of today, this is what Holland America says about their “Catamaran Snorkel & Beach Getaway” in Aruba:  Guests with heart problems, epilepsy or asthma are not allowed to participate in snorkeling. Waiver must be signed and medical conditions disclosed.

 

Then, there is the HAL “Lagoon Cruise with Shark Ray Feeding & BBQ” in Bora Bora, where you swim/snorkel with black tip reef sharks. No maximum age indicated.

 

We were booked on a Crystal Danube/Rhine river cruise for July 2020, which was cancelled, due to covid. Before it was cancelled, I booked five bike tours; none of which indicated an age limit.

 

I agree that the insurance provider has probably insisted on the age limit, but I am surprised/dismayed that they would lock out a fair percentage of their passengers on the basis of age---when other cruise lines do not. In fact, of the five excursions offered in St Barts in December, two have the age 70 limitation. This is while HAL, who has just about the oldest passenger population in the industry, does not have an age limitation for snorkeling trips.

 

While we usually prefer to book private excursions, in many ports, the better vendors are locked into an exclusive contract with the cruise line. Many times we have been declined by a vendor because we are arriving on a ship (with an exclusive contract) or the cruise line has booked all/most of the available vendors. 

 

I’d hate this to be the reason to move to a different cruise line, but it is definitely something to consider in situations where the cruise line’s excursions are the only option.

I have encountered max age restrictions on Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, and Princess.  Usually age 70, sometimes as low as 65 in Mexico.

 

The cruise lines require their vendors to have liability insurance.  Having max age limits reduces the cost of that insurance.

 

For many activities such as diving and snorkeling risks do go up.  The statistics on fatal diving events is much worse for those over 65.  

 

For example:

"Annual death rates for insured DAN members were stable during 2000-2006, with a mean of 16.4 deaths per 100,000 members. Fatality rates increased dramatically with age. Among divers 15-25 years of age, the fatality rate was less than 10 per 100,000 members but increased to 30 per 100,000 among divers 65 years of age and older."

 

The vendors and insurance companies have no way to verify health and fitness for participants.  So they use age.

[Benthayer Gonbak]

On 5/9/2021 at 6:03 PM, luv2travel90266 said:

My belief is as long as I maintain my physical activity I hope to be going strong for many more years. My mother is 93 and teaches line dancing at a senior center.  I’m fine with going with off ship excursions so that I can bike, hike, swim and fully enjoy my future cruises.  As my cruise since the pandemic shut down is not till feb 2022 I’ll wait and see what the policy is before making further decisions. 

 

i taught clogging for several years, but I was much younger than your Mom!  We taught line dances at the senior centers where we performed.  

[Cruizer Diana]

10 hours ago, ldtr said:

I have encountered max age restrictions on Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, and Princess.  Usually age 70, sometimes as low as 65 in Mexico.

 

The cruise lines require their vendors to have liability insurance.  Having max age limits reduces the cost of that insurance.

 

For many activities such as diving and snorkeling risks do go up.  The statistics on fatal diving events is much worse for those over 65.  

 

For example:

"Annual death rates for insured DAN members were stable during 2000-2006, with a mean of 16.4 deaths per 100,000 members. Fatality rates increased dramatically with age. Among divers 15-25 years of age, the fatality rate was less than 10 per 100,000 members but increased to 30 per 100,000 among divers 65 years of age and older."

 

The vendors and insurance companies have no way to verify health and fitness for participants.  So they use age.

I would agree that diving is a dangerous activity. Snorkeling on a shore excursion rarely involves diving. In fact, divers hire dive boats with dive masters and dive equipment. Snorkelers are swimmers who usually don't go below the surface and use a mask and snorkel to see what is below the surface. Snorkeling is usually no more dangerous than just swimming. The limitation should be whether you can swim, rather than if you are old.

[luv2travel90266]

Truly there is little logic in using age to delineate if the activity is safe or not. An opinion of when many get into trouble is not the activity but panicking. Snorkeling uses little energy especially off a boat. Being a strong enough swimmer to realize if you can make it through the surf line could be another issue.

 

Standing in line at the buffet could actually be the most dangerous thing we do. That couple behind me looks voraciously hungry. Oops....sorry about getting off topic. There is no restriction for age at the buffet 😁 

[Guest ldtr]

12 hours ago, Cruizer Diana said:

I would agree that diving is a dangerous activity. Snorkeling on a shore excursion rarely involves diving. In fact, divers hire dive boats with dive masters and dive equipment. Snorkelers are swimmers who usually don't go below the surface and use a mask and snorkel to see what is below the surface. Snorkeling is usually no more dangerous than just swimming. The limitation should be whether you can swim, rather than if you are old.

You might look at stats for Hawaii and the breakdown on snorkeler deaths.  There was some interesting data a couple of years back.  

 

The Florida Key see the same things. As from 2019

 

In the last month, five people died in separate diving and snorkeling incidents in the Florida Keys. All but one were over the age of 55.

 

Snorkeling puts one under more stress than one might think.  1 You have the exertion of swimming, 2. You are breathing through a constricted pipe and have to exert more just to breath. 3. It may also create more stress in some people due to being in somewhat unfamiliar conditions.

 

The interesting thing is that there might be more of an issue with the new full face snorkels.  With the old snorkel tubes there is relatively small about of air space in the tube.  The volume of the tube will contain the last air exhaled and will also be the first air inhaled (basically some of the air you are breathing is the same air you exhaled and therefore contains some CO2).  In most cases that volume is rather small and not have much concern.  With some of the new full face mask snorkels have a larger volume of this space and may have more impact on breathing.  Some tours in Hawaii will not allow them to be used.

[Ithikan]

I'm in complete agreement re. the full face masks for snorkeling, Idtr.  Too many times I've seen swimmers of all ages stagger out of the water, disoriented and confused.  I feel it is much safer to use  the old fashioned, mask-and-mouth-snorkel set up.

And personally, I stick to the above the water, maskless thrills of boogie boarding : )

[Benthayer Gonbak]

26 minutes ago, Ithikan said:

I'm in complete agreement re. the full face masks for snorkeling, Idtr.  Too many times I've seen swimmers of all ages stagger out of the water, disoriented and confused.  I feel it is much safer to use  the old fashioned, mask-and-mouth-snorkel set up.

And personally, I stick to the above the water, maskless thrills of boogie boarding : )

It took me less than about 10 breathes to feel claustrophobic and like I couldn’t breath!  While breathing your own CO2 is therapeutic for hyperventilation, even that treatment is short lived and uses a paper bag.  
 

Thank you both for pointing out my reactions to a full face mask has scientific data, and unfortunately deaths that say I’m not just too weak of a breather!  

[Cruizer Diana]

7 hours ago, Benthayer Gonbak said:

It took me less than about 10 breathes to feel claustrophobic and like I couldn’t breath!  While breathing your own CO2 is therapeutic for hyperventilation, even that treatment is short lived and uses a paper bag.  
 

Thank you both for pointing out my reactions to a full face mask has scientific data, and unfortunately deaths that say I’m not just too weak of a breather!  

There are lists of full-face masks that are dangerous, due to their design. Most snorkel trip providers do not offer the full face mask. Some even ban them for snorkel trips. That might be a more effective solution than banning healthy, active seniors from the joys of snorkeling.

[Guest ldtr]

33 minutes ago, Cruizer Diana said:

There are lists of full-face masks that are dangerous, due to their design. Most snorkel trip providers do not offer the full face mask. Some even ban them for snorkel trips. That might be a more effective solution than banning healthy, active seniors from the joys of snorkeling.

You need to convince the insurance actuaries to ignore all of their data that indicates that there the risk of poor outcomes (including death and injury) increases with age.  One may not like it but that is the data.  As a result the higher the age limit the higher the insurance cost. 

 

While the new style full faces masks are higher risk due to the increased air space, the data is clear even with the old tube style.

[Benthayer Gonbak]

1 hour ago, Cruizer Diana said:

There are lists of full-face masks that are dangerous, due to their design. Most snorkel trip providers do not offer the full face mask. Some even ban them for snorkel trips. That might be a more effective solution than banning healthy, active seniors from the joys of snorkeling.

i was interested in the mask because I have a hard time not breathing through my nose.  But, yes, I’d prefer to be rejected because of my mask rather than my age.  For what it is worth, the trip I was on did not offer any masks as I recall.
 

I’d be interested in finding the list of the masks that are dangerous if you can help find the link.  

[Baynanno1]

One other comment about relative safety of diving vs. snorkeling :

 

On top of the water it is easy to roll onto one's back, remove the snorkel and breathe fresh air while floating - not an option deep down in scuba gear.

[yogagal47]

Just off 10 days on Journey- Greece Intensive. There were no age restrictions on tours and they were all described as various levels including easy,  moderate and strenuous with a  fairly clear explanation of why the trip was rated that way. A boat trip in Mykonos was rated as strenuous , likely because you had to be ambulatory and fairly fit to move around the boat, go down Steep stairs to use the Loo and go down a steep slippery ladder sort of thing to enter the water for three different swims that were offered during the boat ride. We did another tour rated Strenuous because it involved walking up a steep set of stairs to reach a monastery in Meteora. We took a tour that involved a somewhat bumpy off-road ride in a four-wheel-drive vehicle(it was air-conditioned and a comfortable Land Rover) and also involved walking around a winery going up and down steps for the tour etc. we had a full day tour at Marmaris Greece that was rated strenuous because we had to get on and off a local style boat, walk a bit of a distance up a dusty trail to some ruins and then a longer walk back down again to the boat, then had to get off the boat and walk a distance along the boardwalk to go to the beach and then back again to the boat. So for folks who consider themselves fit, it was not strenuous but by describing it as such, they kept people away who would have been miserable, particularly with the extreme heat one finds in Greece in summer.

Edited June 27, 2022 by yogagal47
Grammar spelling

[Cruizer Diana]

17 hours ago, Benthayer Gonbak said:

i was interested in the mask because I have a hard time not breathing through my nose.  But, yes, I’d prefer to be rejected because of my mask rather than my age.  For what it is worth, the trip I was on did not offer any masks as I recall.
 

I’d be interested in finding the list of the masks that are dangerous if you can help find the link.  

I didn’t find a current published list of acceptable or non-acceptable masks. The consensus is that low-cost, low quality masks are very dangerous.

This article (https://snorkelaroundtheworld.com/2018/03/full-face-snorkel-mask-dangerous/) discusses safety concerns and what to look for in selecting a mask. It primarily says to stick with a high-quality (not cheap) mask. Some of the better brands are mentioned. Those brands publish safety testing results.

 

I suggest you search the internet about the safety of the full-face masks. There is a lot of negative feedback. Perhaps the issue is primarily the large number of deaths from using cheap, defective masks. 

[Cruizer Diana]

18 hours ago, ldtr said:

You need to convince the insurance actuaries to ignore all of their data that indicates that there the risk of poor outcomes (including death and injury) increases with age.  One may not like it but that is the data.  As a result the higher the age limit the higher the insurance cost. 

 

While the new style full faces masks are higher risk due to the increased air space, the data is clear even with the old tube style.

I'm curious... can you share a link to the insurance data for swimming, snorkeling? Is there data on deaths involving full-face masks?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Cruizer Diana