View Point: "Why the State of Florida Will Lose its Motion for Preliminary Injunction Against the CDC"

[KennyFla]

10 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, yet, when the CDC did not "micro-manage" the cruise industry, they never came forward with an action plan to resume cruising.  Please don't mention the Healthy Sail Panel report, since this itself mentions that cruise lines would need to implement plans to meet their requirements.  These plans have never come to light.

They were trying to work through the monstrosity that is the CSO.

And, NCL submitted a vaccinated cruise plan on April 5th.  It has not been replied to.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by KennyFla

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, point me to their action plans.  The Healthy Sail Panel report tells what they would recommend the cruise lines to do, it does not say how this is going to be accomplished.  The devil is in the details, and the how is always far harder to spell out than the what.  As an example, the cruise lines say they will mandate vaccinations (that's the what).  Where have they said, how they are going to determine vaccination status, what level of proof, and what enforcement measures will be in place.

You're not even being serious now. Wow, I used to have such respect for you, but you now seem to be firmly in the "cruise line hater camp." This is a sad day for me. Do I really have to spell it out for you? The healthy sail panel's recommendations have basically been adopted/implemented by the cruise lines themselves in the form of the protocols they're currently using and plan to use in the US. You seem to want to engage in some childish game of "oh I know they SAY they'll do those things, but they haven't formally submitted them to the the CDC for approval," blah blah blah like some grown up version of "you didn't say Mother may I." That's such a "government knows best" mentality, and exactly why the CDC is the problem. I'm done.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

They were trying to work through the monstrosity that is the CSO.

And, NCL submitted a vaccinated cruise plan on April 5th.  It has not been replied to.

 

The CSO is the same as the NSO published in April, 2020.  What work was done prior to the CSO being published (6 months).  No, NCL submitted a statement that they would require vaccinations, but did not say how they were going to implement or manage this.  In exchange for this promise to have vaccinations, they wanted all conditions of the CSO to disappear.  Without detailing how it is going to be accomplished, the CDC answered them by stating that vaccinated cruises could go to revenue without simulation, but that all other requirements would remain.

[DCGuy64]

I work in the financial services industry, and there are certain regulations that financial institutions have to comply with that are even as specific as the font and size of certain financial terms used, for instance, in credit card statements. Our friend @chengkp75 is basically saying, as it were
"you said your statements would be legible to the average consumer, but they're only in 10-point Times New Roman and the law stipulates 12-point, so here's your $5,000 fine." Who gives a CRAP about the minutiae of the regulations as long as they work? Good Lord....

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, DCGuy64 said:

You're not even being serious now. Wow, I used to have such respect for you, but you now seem to be firmly in the "cruise line hater camp." This is a sad day for me. Do I really have to spell it out for you? The healthy sail panel's recommendations have basically been adopted/implemented by the cruise lines themselves in the form of the protocols they're currently using and plan to use in the US. You seem to want to engage in some childish game of "oh I know they SAY they'll do those things, but they haven't formally submitted them to the the CDC for approval," blah blah blah like some grown up version of "you didn't say Mother may I." That's such a "government knows best" mentality, and exactly why the CDC is the problem. I'm done.

So, you believe that the "healthy protocols" that they publish on their booking websites amounts to an action plan?  Has anyone been on the ships to verify that the HVAC changes they say they are making have actually been made?  Will anyone ever be allowed to check this?  This is just one example.  Has anyone seen an actual action plan spelling out the procedures for sanitizing that they promise?  Does it look like the VSP?  Or is it just "we've stepped up our sanitation procedures".

 

You can believe what you want about me, I really don't care.  I am not a cruise hater, but I have worked for them and know how they operate.  They are doing everything they possibly can to avoid any oversight.

[KennyFla]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

So, you believe that the "healthy protocols" that they publish on their booking websites amounts to an action plan?  Has anyone been on the ships to verify that the HVAC changes they say they are making have actually been made?  Will anyone ever be allowed to check this?  This is just one example.  Has anyone seen an actual action plan spelling out the procedures for sanitizing that they promise?  Does it look like the VSP?  Or is it just "we've stepped up our sanitation procedures".

 

You can believe what you want about me, I really don't care.  I am not a cruise hater, but I have worked for them and know how they operate.  They are doing everything they possibly can to avoid any oversight.

Yeah, everybody wants to be ruled by micro managed bureaucratic oversite.

 

The proof is in the pudding.  People have been cruising since August with no serious problems.

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I work in the financial services industry, and there are certain regulations that financial institutions have to comply with that are even as specific as the font and size of certain financial terms used, for instance, in credit card statements. Our friend @chengkp75 is basically saying, as it were
"you said your statements would be legible to the average consumer, but they're only in 10-point Times New Roman and the law stipulates 12-point, so here's your $5,000 fine." Who gives a CRAP about the minutiae of the regulations as long as they work? Good Lord....

 

 

And, it degenerates to the absurd.  I am saying that there needs to be a plan that spells out how you do something, so that an auditor, whether the CDC or a third party auditor hired by the cruise line, as is permitted by the CSO, can determine if the plan is being followed.  Show me that plan.

[chengkp75]

Just now, KennyFla said:

Yeah, everybody wants to be ruled by micro managed bureaucratic oversite.

 

The proof is in the pudding.  People have been cruising since August with no serious problems.

And, while the numbers are still low, the CDC has documented that CLIA has misrepresented the data.  And, the cruises out of Europe are sailing with most of the restrictions that everyone here think are ridiculous and outdated.

[DCGuy64]

12 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, you believe that the "healthy protocols" that they publish on their booking websites amounts to an action plan?  Has anyone been on the ships to verify that the HVAC changes they say they are making have actually been made?  Will anyone ever be allowed to check this?  This is just one example.  Has anyone seen an actual action plan spelling out the procedures for sanitizing that they promise?  Does it look like the VSP?  Or is it just "we've stepped up our sanitation procedures".

 

You can believe what you want about me, I really don't care.  I am not a cruise hater, but I have worked for them and know how they operate.  They are doing everything they possibly can to avoid any oversight.

I'm not going to bother. It's not my job to do your research for you, I just know that ships are sailing in other parts of the world and people aren't dying by the 1,000s. It's just sad, that's all. There are people in this world (and until today, I didn't think you were one of them) who believe nothing can work unless there's a government agency looking over their shoulders 24/7 and writing them up every time they take a wrong step.

For me, the fact that cruise ships are now the safest they've ever been (based on actual cruise passengers who've paid actual money and sailed on actual itineraries and have posted actual videos of their accounts) shows that there's nothing standing in the way of mega cruise ships sailing from US ports except the CDC with its outdated and contradictory guidelines and sluggish, micromanaged, overly cautious approach. I have a headache now so bye for the time being. I'm exhausted from bickering.

[MichiganBound]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

WRONG, as usual.

Yes you are wrong...as usual.  

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

And, while the numbers are still low, the CDC has documented that CLIA has misrepresented the data. 

 

Haven't seen that reported by the CDC.  Is it in the briefs for todays hearing or in some press release?  Thanks.

 

Regarding "misrepresenting," you do realize that the CDC has been continually exposed for just such?

[Sinbadssailors]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The CSO is the same as the NSO published in April, 2020.  What work was done prior to the CSO being published (6 months).  No, NCL submitted a statement that they would require vaccinations, but did not say how they were going to implement or manage this.  In exchange for this promise to have vaccinations, they wanted all conditions of the CSO to disappear.  Without detailing how it is going to be accomplished, the CDC answered them by stating that vaccinated cruises could go to revenue without simulation, but that all other requirements would remain.

Under the conditions put forth in April of 2020?

 

Does time not move forward at the CDC?

 

In the entire rest of the planet, things are not the same as in April 2020

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Haven't seen that reported by the CDC.  Is it in the briefs for todays hearing or in some press release?  Thanks.

 

Regarding "misrepresenting," you do realize that the CDC has been continually exposed for just such?

Yes, they presented the document when they filed their response.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, Sinbadssailors said:

Under the conditions put forth in April of 2020?

 

Does time not move forward at the CDC?

 

In the entire rest of the planet, things are not the same as in April 2020

Perhaps if the cruise lines had been willing to engage earlier in the process, things might have changed since then.

[At Sea At Peace]

2 minutes ago, Sinbadssailors said:

Under the conditions put forth in April of 2020?

 

Does time not move forward at the CDC?

 

In the entire rest of the planet, things are not the same as in April 2020

 

Yep.

 

There is no explanation that makes common sense that a cruise with 100% vaccinated crew and 100% vaccinated passengers is a safety risk to result in a "Princess-like" outbreak or burden land based medical facilities.

 

OR, they are lying about the vaccines.

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Yep.

 

There is no explanation that makes common sense that a cruise with 100% vaccinated crew and 100% vaccinated passengers is a safety risk to result in a "Princess-like" outbreak or burden land based medical facilities.

 

OR, they are lying about the vaccines.

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

And, until the cruise lines explain how they will implement a 100% vaccination rate, the CDC has to assume that they won't get there.

[KennyFla]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, until the cruise lines explain how they will implement a 100% vaccination rate, the CDC has to assume that they won't get there.

1)Vaccinate crew (already in process)

2) Check proof of vaccination of passengers (all are logged in as the shots are given)

 

Let's Cruise!

[Ken the cruiser]

10 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Yep.

 

There is no explanation that makes common sense that a cruise with 100% vaccinated crew and 100% vaccinated passengers is a safety risk to result in a "Princess-like" outbreak or burden land based medical facilities.

 

OR, they are lying about the vaccines.

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

Thought you might find this thread interesting as I thought FDR said all of the NCLH ships where going to be 100% vaccinated. If so, why the solicitation for NCL test cruises?

 

Ncl is starting to look for volunteers for Test cruise in early August - Norwegian Cruise Line - Cruise Critic Community

[Navis]

2 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Thought you might find this thread interesting as I thought FDR said all of the NCLH ships where going to be 100% vaccinated. If so, why the solicitation for NCL test cruises?

 

Ncl is starting to look for volunteers for Test cruise in early August - Norwegian Cruise Line - Cruise Critic Community

Dealing with the issue on two fronts I think. Require 100% and sail outside of the US while simultaneously seeing if they can make test cruises successful in the US with less than 100% vaccination. Maybe trying to find the “sweet spot” for when cruising can resume in US?

[Ken the cruiser]

1 minute ago, Navis said:

Dealing with the issue on two fronts I think. Require 100% and sail outside of the US while simultaneously seeing if they can make test cruises successful in the US with less than 100% vaccination. Maybe trying to find the “sweet spot” for when cruising can resume in US?

I get the 100% goal for Oceania and Regent, but never could understand being able to achieve that goal on start-up NCL ships, as I thought that line was always more family-oriented like Carnival and RCCL.

[DCGuy64]

52 minutes ago, MichiganBound said:

Yes you are wrong...as usual.  

You know, you are just rude and not worth my time anymore. Goodbye.

 

[Navis]

1 minute ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I get the 100% goal for Oceania and Regent, but never could understand being able to achieve that goal on start-up NCL ships, as I thought that line was always more family-oriented like Carnival and RCCL.

Very true. Our next cruise is on Seabourn and they are also out with the 100% requirement, but that really hasn’t been an issue on that board at all. Perhaps for the reasons you state ... smaller ships (450 passengers) and not marketed to children at all.

[At Sea At Peace]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And, while the numbers are still low, the CDC has documented that CLIA has misrepresented the data.  And, the cruises out of Europe are sailing with most of the restrictions that everyone here think are ridiculous and outdated.

 

53 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Haven't seen that reported by the CDC.  Is it in the briefs for todays hearing or in some press release?  Thanks.

 

Regarding "misrepresenting," you do realize that the CDC has been continually exposed for just such?

 

49 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, they presented the document when they filed their response.

 

Well, I have the 46 page "Defendants' Memorandum, and all of the exhibits.

 

CLIA is only mentioned six (6) times; and none even mentions the CLIA as misrepresenting data or the CDC even asserting such.

 

Here are the CLIA references ~

 

1, 2 and 3

 

 

4

 

 

5 and 6

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by At Sea At Peace

[DCGuy64]

26 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Yep.

 

There is no explanation that makes common sense that a cruise with 100% vaccinated crew and 100% vaccinated passengers is a safety risk to result in a "Princess-like" outbreak or burden land based medical facilities.

 

OR, they are lying about the vaccines.

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

Exactly, and yet look how the CDC has just been outed as having relied on false information about the risk of virus transmission in an outdoor setting. Further proof that the CDC's guidelines were ridiculous due to their being based on information we now know was wrong. Why the he** SHOULDN'T the cruise lines balk at complying with rules that are ridiculous and not even based on reliable information? It's stupid. It's all well and good to blame the cruise industry for refusing to go along with CDC mandates, until you realize they were all built on a pack of lies. (OK, so I'm exaggerating for the purpose of illustration, but the main point still stands)

[At Sea At Peace]

24 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, until the cruise lines explain how they will implement a 100% vaccination rate, the CDC has to assume that they won't get there.

 

What explanation?  They get there by getting vaccinated.  100% on a cruise ship will be a heck of a lot more than the CDC is going to get from the land-based population.