View Point: "Why the State of Florida Will Lose its Motion for Preliminary Injunction Against the CDC"

[DCGuy64]

A lot of circular reasoning going on here. "We can't let cruises resume until we know they're safe, and we can't know they're safe until they resume." Anybody? Anybody? Bueller? 🙄🤣🤷‍♂️

[chengkp75]

45 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

What explanation?  They get there by getting vaccinated.  100% on a cruise ship will be a heck of a lot more than the CDC is going to get from the land-based population.

How do you determine that the people are vaccinated?

[D C]

5 hours ago, harkinmr said:

That is the point. It is a past event. The industry was shut down by the CDC last March. Any alleged financial harm to Florida started then and has been continuing. The state could have brought a suit claiming lack of authority and irreparable harm last Spring, Fall or through the Winter. They chose not to.  My guess is because it was not politically expedient.  It’s most enlightening to note that none of the cruise lines, who are the parties directly harmed by the shutdown, have joined in the lawsuit. They instead are working with the CDC on a restart.  

Back then, this was likely to be perceived as a short-term issue.  Covid should have been gone by summer by some accounts.

 

The CSO suggested that a resumption of cruising wasn't too far off, but the CDC proceeded to delay for months before publishing their guidelines.  Seems to my untrained legal eye that the legal action wouldn't have needed to take place last year, or even months ago.  But my legal opinion is worth about what I'm getting paid for it. 

[KennyFla]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

How do you determine that the people are vaccinated?

Vaccinations are reported to the CDC, and I'm sure they are kept by whoever vaccinated you.  You can sign a Release Of Information with the cruise line and they can verify it.

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

Vaccinations are reported to the CDC, and I'm sure they are kept by whoever vaccinated you.  You can sign a Release Of Information with the cruise line and they can verify it.

Fine, then the cruise line can submit a plan stating this as their protocol to ensure vaccination requirement, rather than saying "we require vaccinations".  This, of course, would also include the procedures and protocols, including inspections and maintenance, of the rest of the measures they have promised to implement.

[JamieLogical]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

How do you determine that the people are vaccinated?

 

There are at least a dozen "vaccine passport" type apps in development right now. One was just used for a vaccinated-only flight from NY to FL as a test case. I am sure that the cruise lines will partner with these apps to verify vaccination. We will find out soon enough as vaccination-required RCL cruises begin in a month.

[Stallion]

 

Have CDC recommendations been modified? Someone on another board mentioned changes that were posted to a reddit thread. I followed the link. See below. They now reference what I believe is new concerning fully vaccinated cruisers and masks. See bold below:

 

Mask Use

At this time, all persons, including port personnel, crew, and passengers are advised that CDC’s Mask Order remains in effect and requires the wearing of masks on conveyances entering, traveling within, or leaving the United States, and in U.S. transportation hu

 

 

(see Maritime-specific Frequently Asked Questions).

• While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order.
• Masks do not have to be worn while inside one’s own cabin.
• Travelers should not wear a mask when doing activities that may get the mask wet, like swimming at the beach or in recreational water facilities. A wet mask can make it difficult to breathe and may not work as well when wet. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain physical distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family.

Fully Vaccinated Travelers

• Cruise ship operators, at their discretion, may advise passengers and crew that—if they are fully vaccinated—they may gather or conduct activities outdoors, including engaging in extended meal service or beverage consumption, without wearing a mask except in crowded settings.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html

Edited May 12, 2021 by Stallion

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

There are at least a dozen "vaccine passport" type apps in development right now. One was just used for a vaccinated-only flight from NY to FL as a test case. I am sure that the cruise lines will partner with these apps to verify vaccination. We will find out soon enough as vaccination-required RCL cruises begin in a month.

And that's fine, when the cruise lines actually say they are doing this, and have implemented the software or whatever to integrate these systems into their booking systems, and detail how this is done, and what is done to prevent errors.  This kind of thing would be required of their ISM codes, let alone a CDC CSO certificate.

[KennyFla]

10 minutes ago, Stallion said:

 

Have CDC recommendations been modified? Someone on another board mentioned changes that were posted to a reddit thread. I followed the link. See below. They now reference what I believe is new concerning fully vaccinated cruisers and masks. See bold below:

 

Mask Use

At this time, all persons, including port personnel, crew, and passengers are advised that CDC’s Mask Order remains in effect and requires the wearing of masks on conveyances entering, traveling within, or leaving the United States, and in U.S. transportation hu

 

 

(see Maritime-specific Frequently Asked Questions).

• While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order.
• Masks do not have to be worn while inside one’s own cabin.
• Travelers should not wear a mask when doing activities that may get the mask wet, like swimming at the beach or in recreational water facilities. A wet mask can make it difficult to breathe and may not work as well when wet. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain physical distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family.

Fully Vaccinated Travelers

• Cruise ship operators, at their discretion, may advise passengers and crew that—if they are fully vaccinated—they may gather or conduct activities outdoors, including engaging in extended meal service or beverage consumption, without wearing a mask except in crowded settings.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html

 

Seems like this is in process.  Another paragraph about excursions.

 

Fully Vaccinated Travelers

• Cruise ship operators, at their discretion, may advise passengers and crew that—if they are fully vaccinated—they may engage in self-guided or independent exploration during port stops, if they wear a mask while indoors. The cruise ship operator is additionally advised that foreign jurisdictions may have their own requirements.

 

[broberts]

5 hours ago, KennyFla said:

I don't know if the CDC is purposely stopping cruising, or when it comes to cruising they are just totally incompetent.

 

But there is a singling out of the cruise industry over return to operation.

 

 

 

Can you list other industries that routinely have 5,000+ people living in close quarters (~45 cu ft ea) for seven or more days? An environment that is routinely many hours from full medical facilities.

[DCGuy64]

34 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

There are at least a dozen "vaccine passport" type apps in development right now. One was just used for a vaccinated-only flight from NY to FL as a test case. I am sure that the cruise lines will partner with these apps to verify vaccination. We will find out soon enough as vaccination-required RCL cruises begin in a month.

I agree with this, I think there are now and will be in the future, reliable ways for the cruise lines to verify a person's vaccination status, if they decide to go that route. What the specifics of that will be, I don't know, because I don't work for a cruise line and I have ZERO information on their internal workings. What I do believe, however, is that if what we've been told about meetings between the CDC and industry executives is true, these things are being hammered out. I am confident that they will reach an agreement.

[KennyFla]

7 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

Can you list other industries that routinely have 5,000+ people living in close quarters (~45 cu ft ea) for seven or more days? An environment that is routinely many hours from full medical facilities.

It's weird, but it seems that the people with the most posts are the ones that are against cruising re-starting.

[broberts]

40 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

It's weird, but it seems that the people with the most posts are the ones that are against cruising re-starting.

 

It's not surprising that when posters have no cogent reply they often resort to personal attacks.

 

I am on record wanting to resume cruising. But safely, i.e. fully vaccinated.

 

I do not believe the CDC has done anything that demonstrates animus towards cruising. Nor do I believe that the CDC is wrong in treating cruising differently than other  activities. It seems to me there is ample evidence that cruise ships offer special challenges to controlling infectious diseases.

[SeaHunt]

1 hour ago, Stallion said:

Fully Vaccinated Travelers

• Cruise ship operators, at their discretion, may advise passengers and crew that—if they are fully vaccinated—they may gather or conduct activities outdoors, including engaging in extended meal service or beverage consumption, without wearing a mask except in crowded settings.

 

Just FYI abbeycruiser45 posted over on the Celebrity board that two new dining options have appeared for the Millennium sailings out of St Maarten - one is a Pop Up BBQ dinner and the other is a British Pub lunch at the Lawn Club - both outdoors. New trend?

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, D C said:

Back then, this was likely to be perceived as a short-term issue.  Covid should have been gone by summer by some accounts.

 

The CSO suggested that a resumption of cruising wasn't too far off, but the CDC proceeded to delay for months before publishing their guidelines.  Seems to my untrained legal eye that the legal action wouldn't have needed to take place last year, or even months ago.  But my legal opinion is worth about what I'm getting paid for it. 

Actually, I think somebody said it was going to be gone by Easter. “Just like a miracle it will disappear”.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I don’t think the CSO suggested cruising was not too far off.  It just provided a more certain path. And then we all know what happened in the Winter with COVID.  I am an attorney, but don’t claim to be an expert in this type of litigation. I do know that the courts will give government agencies wide latitude especially in a circumstance such as the one we’re in when defending public health.  I do think the “timing” on this lawsuit is politically driven and that it works against the State of Florida that the cruise lines have not joined the suit in support. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by harkinmr

[Ken the cruiser]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

I do think the “timing” on this lawsuit is politically driven and that it works against the State of Florida that the cruise lines have not joined the suit in support. 

I have to admit the dialogue that appears to be going on behind the scenes between the cruise lines and CDC sure seems to be producing some definite compromises, especially with regards to those related to vaccines published on May 5th as well as today. My guess is the cruise lines know very well who runs the show.

[At Sea At Peace]

18 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

My guess is the cruise lines know very well who runs the show.

 

Yep, I think you are right.

 

That doesn't mean that the CDC, based upon its (1) performance (it is the Center for Disease Control and Prevention) and it failed miserably at the outset of the pandemic not isolating the states by not foreseeing the uncertainty with this new, rapidly spreading in Asia virus, and failing to completely shutting down international travel and (2) massive hits to any integrity it had previously accumulated by intentionally misinforming on many critical issues and for literally "looking the other way" for outrageous allowance of activities for political reasons while holding the mass population to draconian state governance via its guidance or silence on the obvious, has earned such a position.

 

So, as a cruise line, they're on bended knee before the same such.  It certainly isn't out of respect, it is out of fear or reprisal and retribution.

 

That is just one USA government entity.

 

So many wonder why the cruise lines won't flag their ships in the USA?  Can you imagine dealing with OSHA, DOL, etc?

 

No thanks.

Edited May 12, 2021 by At Sea At Peace