Florida vs. CDC

[ECCruise]

4 hours ago, KennyFla said:

Choice. It is about choice. If you want to go on a vaccinated cruise, you will be able to. If you are not vaccinated and want to cruise you will be able to. If you want to stay home you will be able to. 
 

it is between you and the cruise lines. A govt bureaucracy should not decide who gets to cruise and who doesn’t. 
 

That is what this has always been about. 

Talk about a false flag.

 

Does that mean that a government should not tell you that you can't drive 100MPH on a city street?  Or that vaccinations are required for school children?  Or that a food processing corporation cannot allow metal flakes or bacteria in your food?

[corinnv]

5 minutes ago, jcu1210 said:

I selfishly hope this doesn't impact our Alaska cruise and the rest of the Alaska season. I don't trust politicians to do the easy thing in a timely manner if that law becomes null in void due to the court decision. 

I am with you on that!! I am trying to surprise my husband with the cruise to Alaska for his birthday. I didn't tell him where we were going.  My final payment is next week.  I will wait util then, nu I am considering cancelling and booking a land trip to Alaska instead.    

[macandlucy]

 Cases are on the rise in the UK, but  is the rise in new cases showing  exponential growth? I don't recall reading that it was exponential, but I am not keeping up with my pandemic reading like I once was. I did read that even with the rise of new cases, hospitalizations and deaths are down. One dose seems to have a good effect on lessening the severity of the disease. 

 

Israel, I believe, used Pfizer, and their numbers are very good, like they are having double digit new cases and zero deaths last time I checked. I don't know what percentage of their population has had two doses, but things are looking good in Israel.

 

I do think it's important to remember that when public health officials were worried about 2, 3 4 thousand cases last year, they were worried because of the exponential growth potential because there was no immunity in the population to slow it, and things could get very out of control very fast. With lots of immunity in the population, it's different.

[WarfRatWA]

13 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

Would you sail on a ship that has both no vaccine requirement and no requirement for masks and social distancing?  

No.  Why would I spend money to sail on a ship with people who are at a higher risk of contracting COVID and thus contributing to a potential outbreak that will lead to enhanced protocols?  Not to mention, it takes up to a week after exposure to register an accurate test result making pre-cruise testing a worthless endeavor.  100% vaccinated cruises are about mitigation.  Its pretty simple.

[Junonia]

21 minutes ago, SpainAlien said:

The upshot is that we have to develop over the counter medicines to combat Covid19 like we do with cold and flu viruses. It has to eventually just become a virus which part of life. 

 

Would I cruise on an unvaccinated ship, yes but would I be comfortable at the moment if that ship had a no mask/social distance policy ? No, mostly because I don't want to be stuck in quarantine 

 

We already have them. I had a friend contract Covid this week and within 24 hours of receiving her prescription, she was feeling her old self. By the next morning she was fine. It is called lvermectin. That is one that does the job anyway. There are

Edited June 19, 2021 by Junonia

[WarfRatWA]

7 minutes ago, Junonia said:

We already have them. I had a friend contract Covid this week and within 24 hours of receiving her prescription, she was feeling her old self. By the next morning she was fine. It is called lvermectin. That is one that does the job anyway. There are

The N95 mask captures 95% of aerosols emitted.  For the droplets (5%) that get through, thats where social distancing & hand washing come into play.  There is no one quick fix to stop the spread, its a combination of preventative measures.  To discard something that is 95% effective, well I think that says more about the person discarding it than the person using it.  

 

Your picture does not give the whole story and as a result it misinforms. 

[Trimone]

its a none story, the cruise companies can do as they please .If NCL want 100% vaccinations they can demand it?

[At Sea At Peace]

4 hours ago, KennyFla said:

Choice. It is about choice. If you want to go on a vaccinated cruise, you will be able to. If you are not vaccinated and want to cruise you will be able to. If you want to stay home you will be able to. 
 

it is between you and the cruise lines. A govt bureaucracy should not decide who gets to cruise and who doesn’t. 
 

That is what this has always been about. 

 

2 hours ago, MichiganBound said:

Wrong.  When public health is at risk,  your normal freedoms rightly go out the window.  The greater good of society at large overrides everything else.   

 

Public health is no longer "at risk."

 

Anyone at risk has been vaccinated and for most others they are able to now get vaccinated (the vaccines were developed in record time) on a walk-in basis now in most of the states. 

 

All data on the virus cases, hospitalizations and deaths are essentially eliminated as a pandemic 'class' of statistics.  Now is the push to get these vaccines to all world nations with same speed and diligence.

 

Freedoms do not go out the window 'when public health is at risk.  The Judiciary continues to rule to counter (balance for precedent for the future) the ineffectiveness of Legislature and the overreach of the Executive during this pandemic; not only at the federal level, but primarily in lockdown states, counties and cities 'citing just such with regards to mask mandates, church gatherings, etc. 

 

This was predicted by Thomas Jefferson (as noted).  Quote per the Judge in the Injunction order ~

 

In a letter to Nathaniel Macon on October 20, 1821, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

 

Our government is now taking so steady a course as to show by what

road it will pass to destruction, to wit, by consolidation first; and then

corruption, it’s necessary consequence. The engine of consolidation

will be the Federal judiciary; the two other branches the corrupting

and corrupted instruments.

 

Jefferson is not yet proven wrong.

 

 

[Karaboudjan]

32 minutes ago, WarfRatWA said:

No.  Why would I spend money to sail on a ship with people who are at a higher risk of contracting COVID and thus contributing to a potential outbreak that will lead to enhanced protocols?  Not to mention, it takes up to a week after exposure to register an accurate test result making pre-cruise testing a worthless endeavor.  100% vaccinated cruises are about mitigation.  Its pretty simple.

I'm sure there are plenty of people on cruises whose vaccine effectiveness is likely to be significantly reduced.  100% sounds nice but I'm not so sure it's really that much safer than 98% or 95% or that it needs to be the bar for eliminating things like mask requirements.  I wouldn't want a 50% vaccinated ship, but I think that there are a lot of things that the companies can do to manage the numbers.
 

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, WarfRatWA said:

Vaccinated people are not afraid to cruise due to COVID.  Vaccinated people don't want to spend a bunch of money and have to wear masks.  They don't want to have limited access to ship board activities/bars/restaurants/shows or ports of call.  They don't want to socially distance.  A 100% vaccinated cruise mitigates those negatives.

 

If you're vaccinated, an you believe in the vaccines, why would you have to wear a mask, segregate or distance at activities, bars, restaurants or ports of call?

 

All of the draconian lockdown protocols, whilst may have been necessary for 15-days (or so) to "flatten the curve" are no longer required.

 

Yet the leaders "virtue signal" when scripted and prompted, but things are quite different when not.

 

 

 

[macandlucy]

32 minutes ago, WarfRatWA said:

No.  Why would I spend money to sail on a ship with people who are at a higher risk of contracting COVID and thus contributing to a potential outbreak that will lead to enhanced protocols?  Not to mention, it takes up to a week after exposure to register an accurate test result making pre-cruise testing a worthless endeavor.  100% vaccinated cruises are about mitigation.  Its pretty simple.

Didn't we just see an example of a 100% vaxxed cruise with a couple of positive cases? 

 

Spoiler alert: we did. 

 

I didn't follow that story. Did ports refuse docking to that ship? Did countries close down to cruising as a result? Was the ship with the positive cases locked down, pax in cabins and masks required? Did the things we don't want to happen, happen?

 

It seems to me, if you have a mix of vaxxed and unvaxxed on a ship and you do get an outbreak, the thing to do is what we do on land: Contact trace and require unvaxxed people to isolate and fully vaxxed only need to isolate if they are showing symptoms.  If you want to sail without being vaccinated, know that you will be subjected to the same public health measures re: isolation that you are on land.

[WarfRatWA]

2 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

If you're vaccinated, an you believe in the vaccines, why would you have to wear a mask, segregate or distance at activities, bars, restaurants or ports of call?

 

All of the draconian lockdown protocols, whilst may have been necessary for 15-days (or so) to "flatten the curve" are no longer required.

 

Yet the leaders "virtue signal" when scripted and prompted, but things are quite different when not.

 

 

 

The cruise line determines the protocols put in place, I don't.  I am simply mitigating worst possible outcome.  When the term "Virtue Signal" is used, it's just a dog whistle for a certain segment of the population.

[WarfRatWA]

1 minute ago, macandlucy said:

Didn't we just see an example of a 100% vaxxed cruise with a couple of positive cases? 

 

Spoiler alert: we did. 

 

I didn't follow that story. Did ports refuse docking to that ship? Did countries close down to cruising as a result? Was the ship with the positive cases locked down, pax in cabins and masks required? Did the things we don't want to happen, happen?

 

It seems to me, if you have a mix of vaxxed and unvaxxed on a ship and you do get an outbreak, the thing to do is what we do on land: Contact trace and require unvaxxed people to isolate and fully vaxxed only need to isolate if they are showing symptoms.  If you want to sail without being vaccinated, know that you will be subjected to the same public health measures re: isolation that you are on land.

Case in point...The Celebrity Millennium is great example of how a 100% vaccinated cruise mitigates.

[macandlucy]

Just now, WarfRatWA said:

Case in point...The Celebrity Millennium is great example of how a 100% vaccinated cruise mitigates.

Okay, well I think we've gone as far as we can in this discussion.

 

I don't agree that cruise ships are a different animal and require more stringent rules than hotels or gyms or resorts or airplanes or hospitals for that matter. I don't think 100% vaccination is required for cruise ships when we are living without a 100% vax requirement for literally everywhere else.   It doesn't mean I won't sail on a ship with 100% vax requirement, (because I am going to be fully vaccinated) but I do think it's overkill.

[WarfRatWA]

1 minute ago, macandlucy said:

Okay, well I think we've gone as far as we can in this discussion.

 

I don't agree that cruise ships are a different animal and require more stringent rules than hotels or gyms or resorts or airplanes or hospitals for that matter. I don't think 100% vaccination is required for cruise ships when we are living without a 100% vax requirement for literally everywhere else.   It doesn't mean I won't sail on a ship with 100% vax requirement, (because I am going to be fully vaccinated) but I do think it's overkill.

I agree, this discussion is played out.

 

Needless to say, at this point in time, I am on the other end of the spectrum. I really hope things change and we see a wider acceptance of vaccines and we see a wider usage internationally.  I've got three cruises booked, to include the H2 on the Prima, so I'd like to see the industry get back to normal.  IMO, the best way to do that is via 100% vaccinated cruises.

 

Happy sailings.

[ziggyuk]

3 hours ago, macandlucy said:

The UK vaccine strategy I believe was to get everyone a first jab, and then do a second later. So, most people are not fully immunized.  And they used a lot of AstraZeneca, which is a different vaccine than many Americans have taken and will take.

 

True that the UK went one shot then delayed the second but we are ahead on the US with the number of people with double shots and have a lot more potential to go, you have nearly hit your limit which is very worrying.

[KennyFla]

4 hours ago, MichiganBound said:

Wrong.  When public health is at risk,  your normal freedoms rightly go out the window.  The greater good of society at large overrides everything else.   

Public health. I didn’t realize going on a cruise ship was mandatory.  It’s not like we are passing around bubonic plague to  the villagers. 
 

Mixed cruises are already shown to be safe. I think it’s pretty dishonest to scream doomsday because you want everyone to be vaccinated on your cruise. 
 

[Pizzasteve]

14 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

Public health. I didn’t realize going on a cruise ship was mandatory.  It’s not like we are passing around bubonic plague to  the villagers. 
 

Mixed cruises are already shown to be safe. I think it’s pretty dishonest to scream doomsday because you want everyone to be vaccinated on your cruise. 
 

It is a public health issue when a ship from a high Covid spread region (USA) goes to regions that are still vulnerable.  Also, mixed cruises have not been shown to be safe.  That is wishfull thinking at best, even recently isolated and vaccinated crew had a 7+ person incident once on ship, and this was without passengers.  

 

I constantly see a self centered perspective on this site rather than taking personal responsibility for making sure we are not accidentally killing other humans by 1) getting vaccinated (its safe, free, saves lives, civic duty).  It is pretty crazy.  I know a husband that inadvertantly killed his own wife (sister of a friend)  by working an extra shift for money to fill in for a sick coworker and brought covid home.  He had a vulnerable status spouse.  Now he gets to be a single parent.  Then I read posts like this.  Breaks my heart.

 

What is dishonest about caution when we still have relatively high spread, countries with almost no vaccinated populations and half a million Americans dead and million+ Indian dead and still growing? Florida wants to impose their 'Libertarian, laissez fair, let em die' idiology on sensible people who understand math, science and pandemic control.  I'm not for it and wont sail on a line that isnt verifying vaccinated status for all crew and passengers medically able to get one.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[Pizzasteve]

25 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

 

True that the UK went one shot then delayed the second but we are ahead on the US with the number of people with double shots and have a lot more potential to go, you have nearly hit your limit which is very worrying.

Agreed, and I am embarassed for my country.  In particular I am embarrassed by the politicians that chose to encourage the anti vax movement for their personal enrichment and political gain.  It is inexcusable.  These same politicians were the first to get vaccines (in secret) and also were eager to trust science and received the most advanced experimental treatments (not available to others who died), when it was needed to save their own lives.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[zerooveride]

I am fully vaccinated and do not enjoy wearing a mask and I do not wear one when I don't have to.

 

But, if I walk into a business and they tell me they are uncomfortable, for whatever reason, and want me to wear a mask, I respect their decision and wear a mask. That is their right. They decide how they run their store and who they want to service. To tell them that they can't enforce what they feel safe with is a violation of their inherent rights. How is it any different than "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"? I don't see people complaining about that. We need to stop arguing about the stupid masks/vaccination requirements and respect what others, including businesses, feel comfortable with. 

 

If you don't want to get vaccinated, then it is on you if you do get sick. That again is your choice. I hope you do not but the decision is yours. 

 

If the cruise lines want to require 100% vaccinated, then that is their right. You have no right to carriage on their ships. Many cruise lines already deny people with and without reason; again because it is their right. No one has a right to go on a cruise and you can be denied with or without reason.

[HuliHuli]

22 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Wow! Big win for the industry.

And the CDC got their pee-pee whacked.  Here is part of the Judge's conclusion [emphasis added]:

 

"This order resolves Florida’s motion for a preliminary injunction. In brief, this order confirms Florida’s constitutional and statutory standing to assert the claims in the complaint. This order finds that Florida is highly likely to prevail on the merits of the claim that CDC’s conditional sailing order and the implementing orders exceed the authority delegated to CDC under Section 264(a). Alternatively, this order (1) finds that, if Section 264(a) includes the comprehensive authority claimed by CDC to promulgate and enforce regulations, Section 264(a) likely constitutes an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power to CDC because the delegation fails to convey any “intelligible principle” to guide CDC’s exercise of authority and (2) finds that the Supreme Court seems likely to impose soon a more demanding standard, which Section 264(a), as interpreted by CDC, is even more likely to fail.

 

Additionally, this order determines that Florida is likely to prevail on at least one, but perhaps not all, of the several other claims based on the APA.  Because of (1) Florida’s probability of success on the merits, (2) the imminent threat of irreparable injury to Florida, (3) the comparative injury depending on whether an injunction issues, and (4) the imminent and material threat to the public interest, Florida’s motion for preliminary injunction is GRANTED, and CDC is PRELIMINARILY ENJOINED from enforcing against a cruise ship arriving in, within, or departing from a port in Florida the conditional sailing order and the later measures (technical guidelines, manuals, and the like).  However, the preliminary injunction is STAYED until 12:01 a.m. EDT on JULY 18, 2021, at which time the conditional sailing order and the measures promulgated under the conditional sailing order will persist as only a non-binding “consideration,” “recommendation” or “guideline,” the same tools used by CDC when addressing the practices in other similarly situated industries, such as airlines, railroads, hotels, casinos, sports venues, buses, subways, and others. (Docs. 45-4; 45-5;45-6; 46-4)"

 

In earlier CC debates on the merits and likely outcomes of this case, a majority of posters projected that Florida would fail in this case - I publicly disagreed based on prior case law and the plain reading of the law.  Now who's right?

Edited June 19, 2021 by HuliHuli

[Drews_Cruise]

Some very interesting points of view in this thread, but in the end, the cruise industry is dead in the water if people don’t book.  Unless all are vaccinated or there’s no more pandemic I won’t be on one.  Who knows how many others feel this way but time will tell.  Laws, opinions and politics won’t matter, as empty cruise ships (or full ones)will define the future.

[ricksurf]

I will error on the side of Science and go with the CDC requirements.  I don't believe that the judge or desantis have medical degrees; just rhetoric.  

If the cruise industry wants to stop all this Florida fighting, then move all the initial cruising out of Florida and restart cruising from other States which are cooperative with the CDC and the cruise industry.  Nobody wants to go backwards and have to stop cruising again.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, HuliHuli said:

And the CDC got their pee-pee whacked.  Here is part of the Judge's conclusion [emphasis added]:

Which begs the question… “whose pee-pee is next?”

 

A federal court just ruled a government agency over-reached on Covid restrictions. I suspect the flood gates may have just opened. Buckle up buttercups.  

[WarfRatWA]

2 hours ago, KennyFla said:

Public health. I didn’t realize going on a cruise ship was mandatory.  It’s not like we are passing around bubonic plague to  the villagers. 
 

Mixed cruises are already shown to be safe. I think it’s pretty dishonest to scream doomsday because you want everyone to be vaccinated on your cruise. 
 

No one is screaming doomsday....we just want our cruise ruined by selfish people.  Its not a difficult  concept to understand.

 

FYI: there is not credible evidence that mixed cruises are safe for the unvaccinated....that is pure opinion on your part.

Edited June 19, 2021 by WarfRatWA