Cruising Hesitancy Amid Covid

[texanaust]

We too are based in 'Fortress' Western Australia and will be traveling to Europe next May.  We have made no cruising plans yet, but plan to pick up some last minute deals hopefully.  We are not too worried about Covid, but mask wearing and getting offloaded for quarantine at random ports does concern us. 

Looking at Seabourn's ambitious Med schedule for next year, it seems hard to believe all the cruises will depart as planned.  And they certainly won't fill up at the current prices if the hesitancy on this board is anything to go by.  

[shyla100]

Hi we are based in Sydney so our vaccination rates are great and are very use to wearing marks but do not want to travel having to use them if it can be avoided.

We have book the Med cruise in July also but backed it up with the one in Sept if things are not going the way we want and also insurance is a big factor for us.

We also have till March to make up our mind which way to go.

 

Sunviking

I have been thinking about you and hope that the cruise you take turns out to be more then you ever expected.

Congratulation in doing this and condolences in the loss of your husband .

Please keep us informed on how it all goes for you.

[cruiseej]

10 hours ago, SLSD said:

Here's one thing that is really holding us back from booking a Seabourn cruise---the fact that SB has not said that vaccination against Covid will be required for all cruises going forward into 2022, 2023, etc.  Does anyone have thoughts or analysis of this issue?

 

What will it even mean to "be vaccinated" in 2022 or 2023? Initial vaccination? Booster? Second or third booster? No one knows, and I think it's impossible to see into the future more than the next 4-6 months. 

[2seabournsailors]

3 hours ago, frantic36 said:

 

I will keep my fingers crossed for both of us. Our cruise is a Western Med on Sojourn in July/August. The vaccination rates in Spain, France and Italy are all good and they are no longer on the do not travel from smart traveller, hopefully they will stay that way. Our only concern is a stop in Morocco but their double vaccination rate is the same us here in WA currently, smart traveller has no input on that country.

 

Our next hurdle is waiting to find out what insurance we can get. Everything we have booked is cancellable from about March next year so hopefully we will have clarity by then.

Probably on the same cruise. Barcelona to Barcelona on Sojourn for 5 weeks. Insurance is going to be a big problem for us due to pre existing's and the one we usually use (via Probus Club ) isn't even listed at the moment. Holding off on Flights and Hotels till next year, then decide if we cancel or not...

 

[jdk-atlga]

Hi all: I think that you are correct in that I believe that we are in an uncertain, unknown time with COVID going endemic (due to continual vaccinations, similar to flu shots (but maybe more regular) and more consistent hygiene/mask-wearing). Personally, I believe (but don't know) that this is the new "normal" and we can plan accordingly - maybe boosters, mixing brands may increase effectiveness, and taking reasonable and prudent precautions. 

 

That said, my wife and I are dipping our toes back into the SB cruise pool in May 2022 (Pacific Coast) and then two more, just about every 6 months, for the few years. The one thing I know (versus believe) is that we need to be cautious but flexible and patient, knowing that plans will change/revise. 

Best, jdk

[SLSD]

17 hours ago, riverotter said:

 

 

Fly in ointment number two is the understanding from what looks like a solid article today saying that those of us who are vaxxed with Pfizer will infect spread Covid as easy as unvaccinated folks in a close family like setting which seems to resemble cruising since we somehow manage to create an extended family by the time we get off.  With the definition of "mild" meaning just not in the hospital I can't see taking the chance of a breakthrough.

 

riverotter, would you be so kind as to give us a link to the article about Pfizer vaccines that you read?  I'm vaccinated with Pfizer, my husband with Moderna.  I AM considering switching over to Moderna through boosters (if there are additional boosters) at some point--if possible.  People have been told that mixing and matching is acceptable.  

[Hlitner]

We think this is all about a number of factors including personal risk tolerance (or sleep quotient) and government action both good and bad.   In terms of personal decisions we do not think it is a matter of right and wrong but simply folks exercising their freedom of choice (except in cases where government has decided to take away freedom of choice).  So folks like DW and me have never stopped traveling during the pandemic (except for a few months from April to Aug of 2020).  Others have followed a similar course of the OP because they felt more comfortable limiting their risk.  We have pointed (for over a year) here on CC that there is no reason to think that COVID is going to disappear.  It is likely that this disease is here to stay for the long term (or so we are told by most experts) and folks are going to continue to make their own decisions.  The big change that has been happening in the past 6 months is that many governments have realized that we must learn to live with COVID and are again enabling travel.  

 

We returned to the world of cruising in late July with a 3 week trip to Greece which included a 2 week cruise and a week running around a few Greek Islands on our own.  It was a wonderful trip in every respect and most folks we met also seemed to enjoy themselves.  We followed up with a 2 week Caribbean cruise a few weeks ago (plus some time in a Barbados resort).  We have also managed some land trips (including our usual 10 weeks in Mexico last winter).  We are in the high risk group in terms of COVID but have simply decided that we are willing to assume some COVID risk in order to live our lives.  

 

DW and I do not worry about getting COVID when we travel/cruise.  We see it as a risk just like getting the flu, Norovirus, heart attack, etc.  To us it is just one more issue to be given consideration but not a factor to govern our lives.  We carefully listen to the experts, get our vaccines, and follow some common sense rules (such as wearing a good N95 mask when moving through airports and train stations).  

 

This darn pandemic has already impacted most of the world for nearly 2 years.   I have long wondered how long those that continue to exercise lots of caution (such as the OP) are willing to put some of their life on hold.  Assuming that COVID will be a factor for at least the next 5-10 years (if not longer) are these folks considering a permanent change in their lifestyle?  Our most recent cruises and trips have, at times, made us feel like we are part of a fraternity that is dedicated to living their life and having fun despite COVID.  We have felt this on our two recent cruises  where there is just a lot of joy among passengers and crew.  We have been cruising for about 45 years (far more then 100 cruises all over the world) and our two most recent cruises have been among the best.....ever!  For those that are able to deal with the risk tolerance issue there are some amazing rewards to be found in the travel/cruise world.  Most recently we were on a 450 passenger ultra luxury ship with fewer then 130 passengers and a crew of 360!  In terms of service, quality and value it truly was one of those "trips of a lifetime."   The attitude that "we are all in this together" predominated throughout the two cruises and enhanced the bond between all aboard (passengers and crew).  

 

We have already booked a nice month long repositioning cruise (from the USA to Europe) for next Spring and plan to spend several additional weeks (or months) in Europe.  Where we go and what we do will depend, to some degree, on the rules and restrictions that are in place at that time.   Because of COVID, travel and cruising favors those who are capable of being flexible (in terms of their travel plans).  Those that need a lot of structure in their travel and planning are having a tough time and we do not see that changing anytime soon.   

 

Hank

[frantic36]

1 hour ago, SLSD said:

Thank you ibnolad.   I am aware that vaccine experts repeatedly stress that the primary goal of the vaccines is to prevent severe disease.  Of course that doesn't help us as cruisers as our goal is to avoid all disease so as not to be quarantined off of a ship.  We ARE grateful that the vaccines may help us avoid death.  

 

In reading through the Lancelot article I found this to be reassuring about vaccines...

 

"Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections."

 

So even though the vaccinated individual would likely have a high peak viral load initially their immune response through the vaccine is able to get rid of the virus quicker so the viral load declines quicker. 

I think that is a positive. Though I agree the research for antivirals to use as an extra weapon to help suppress the virus at early onset and stop transmission is very important. 

[alexander51]

NPR posted this interesting story today about how COVID might evolve:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/10/29/1050465159/covids-endgame-scientists-have-a-clue-about-where-sars-cov-2-is-headed

 

We may be approaching a time when testing positive for COVID-19 while on board is not a rarity, but it also no longer spreads and kills as it did in 2020. Maybe it will become like flu or an intestinal upset, with a quick cabin quarantine, recovery, and continuation of a cruise. But such a different approach is probably a year or two away.

[Catlover54]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We think this is all about a number of factors including personal risk tolerance (or sleep quotient) and government action both good and bad.   In terms of personal decisions we do not think it is a matter of right and wrong but simply folks exercising their freedom of choice (except in cases where government has decided to take away freedom of choice).  So folks like DW and me have never stopped traveling during the pandemic (except for a few months from April to Aug of 2020).  Others have followed a similar course of the OP because they felt more comfortable limiting their risk.  We have pointed (for over a year) here on CC that there is no reason to think that COVID is going to disappear.  It is likely that this disease is here to stay for the long term (or so we are told by most experts) and folks are going to continue to make their own decisions.  The big change that has been happening in the past 6 months is that many governments have realized that we must learn to live with COVID and are again enabling travel.  

 

We returned to the world of cruising in late July with a 3 week trip to Greece which included a 2 week cruise and a week running around a few Greek Islands on our own.  It was a wonderful trip in every respect and most folks we met also seemed to enjoy themselves.  We followed up with a 2 week Caribbean cruise a few weeks ago (plus some time in a Barbados resort).  We have also managed some land trips (including our usual 10 weeks in Mexico last winter).  We are in the high risk group in terms of COVID but have simply decided that we are willing to assume some COVID risk in order to live our lives.  

 

DW and I do not worry about getting COVID when we travel/cruise.  We see it as a risk just like getting the flu, Norovirus, heart attack, etc.  To us it is just one more issue to be given consideration but not a factor to govern our lives.  We carefully listen to the experts, get our vaccines, and follow some common sense rules (such as wearing a good N95 mask when moving through airports and train stations).  

 

This darn pandemic has already impacted most of the world for nearly 2 years.   I have long wondered how long those that continue to exercise lots of caution (such as the OP) are willing to put some of their life on hold.  Assuming that COVID will be a factor for at least the next 5-10 years (if not longer) are these folks considering a permanent change in their lifestyle?  Our most recent cruises and trips have, at times, made us feel like we are part of a fraternity that is dedicated to living their life and having fun despite COVID.  We have felt this on our two recent cruises  where there is just a lot of joy among passengers and crew.  We have been cruising for about 45 years (far more then 100 cruises all over the world) and our two most recent cruises have been among the best.....ever!  For those that are able to deal with the risk tolerance issue there are some amazing rewards to be found in the travel/cruise world.  Most recently we were on a 450 passenger ultra luxury ship with fewer then 130 passengers and a crew of 360!  In terms of service, quality and value it truly was one of those "trips of a lifetime."   The attitude that "we are all in this together" predominated throughout the two cruises and enhanced the bond between all aboard (passengers and crew).  

 

We have already booked a nice month long repositioning cruise (from the USA to Europe) for next Spring and plan to spend several additional weeks (or months) in Europe.  Where we go and what we do will depend, to some degree, on the rules and restrictions that are in place at that time.   Because of COVID, travel and cruising favors those who are capable of being flexible (in terms of their travel plans).  Those that need a lot of structure in their travel and planning are having a tough time and we do not see that changing anytime soon.   

 

Hank

Post of the day ( if not the month, or the year)!  Thank you, Hank.

My extra three kopeks worth: Let's hope that the trend of some governments finally  realizing that societies have to learn to keep functioning with Covid, and with its being endemic, will not be aborted by yet another round of variant panic.  
And I am not just worried  about cruising. Countries with bigger social welfare systems have been keenest on shutting down the ability of many of their working people to earn a living, but still feeding them.  However, countries without ability to do so have opened up earlier (some exceptions) , in part because they were more concerned about long term human damage and even deaths from lockdowns than from Covid, a disease ( so far, even with delta) with over 99% survival.  They instead focussed on protecting the most vulnerable, a process they will need to continue indefinitely until we get specific treatments other than current vaccines ( we are getting close) .

Cruise lines are keen to get indirect permission from authorities to at least stop treating contacts who test negative as potential killers, so bookings can rise, if not be able to start treating Covid on a vaccinated ship like they treated norovirus or flu on a ship.  It has been clear for quite some time that most people who post on CC ( even on luxury lines which cater to older and thus somewhat greater risk for adverse outcome pax), worry less about hospitalization or death from Covid than they do about getting thrown off a ship in God knows where, losing money due to uninsurable short notice cancellations, and/or not being able to get back to work or other home responsibilities due to suddenly imposed quarantine, even when they feel fine. Those who are retired, wealthier, do not have dependents or major responsibilities waiting for them  at home ( be they very elderly family, or animals ) ,  healthier ( e.g., no need to be sure and get back home on time for their special health care IV infusions), N95 mask-tolerant, and more psychologically flexible  will keep happily cruising under current circumstances.  I only fit three of these six categories, and  will still keep cruising ( I have five booked in the next 13 months and am looking at two more) , but I worry there aren't enough of me, or Hanks, to keep the cruise lines and many other businesses functional  without a big change in authorities' overall Covid management perspective -- soon.
 Cruise and travel  prices are also rising a lot for 2022 and 2023  in many areas ( due to both Covid costs and inflation) , and seniors are aging, so for some it may be now or never.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hlitner]

Catlover, you mention a great point about folks that need to get home on time vs those of us who can lag.  Sometimes I am guilty of forgetting that there are 2 or 3 people in the world that actually go out an earn a living and are not either retired or totally dependent on their government for support :).  And that issue is huge.  When we were recently on the cruise from Barbados we got tested 5 times in less than 3 weeks.  I will admit to some anxiety about the early tests because a positive would have certainly ruined our trip.  But when we got our last test (the day before we were to fly back to the USA) I will admit to having little concern.  A positive would have meant being sent to some hotel on Barbados to quarantine for up to 2 weeks (assuming we never go truly sick).  DW and I would have simply had a lot of reading time!  But for folks that still work for a living....that kind of quarantine would have been devastating.  

 

You also mention that for some of the seniors (including DW and me) the aging process (like a ticking clock) is an issue.  On one hand we have the luxury of not having to go to work but on the other hand we are cognizant of that ticking biological clock.  My goodness, when I rent a car I now have to make sure I am not too old!  It seems like yesterday that I had to be concerned about being too young :). 

 

I will digress.  On our recent Seabourn cruises we met many folks in our age range (or older) that were healthy, living life to its fullest, and having fun.  Having spent a lot of time on HAL where we were always the babies (even in our 60s-70s) we found this interesting.  HAL seems to attract many cruisers who are concerned with just moving from one end of the ship to the other.  On Seabourn we seldom encountered that issue although there were many folks in a similar age range.  Our last two cruises (July and Oct) were on Seabourn and it has changed my thinking about the ultra luxury market.  The truth is that we often meet whiners on the mass market lines but have seldom met any whiner on the luxury lines.  We have also seldom met a snob on the ultra luxury lines.  Perhaps we were just lucky.  Not sure...but we will certainly have some fun learning the truth.

 

Hank

[riverotter]

6 hours ago, SLSD said:

riverotter, would you be so kind as to give us a link to the article about Pfizer vaccines that you read?  I'm vaccinated with Pfizer, my husband with Moderna.  I AM considering switching over to Moderna through boosters (if there are additional boosters) at some point--if possible.  People have been told that mixing and matching is acceptable.  

Here is a link to the article.  I hope it is reputable.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests

[johng75370]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

But for folks that still work for a living....that kind of quarantine would have been devastating. 

One side effect of COVID is a lot of professional work has shifted to working from home, or working remotely.  Part of our decision process as “working folk” on cruising these last few months is that even in quarantine we’d likely have internet, so work could continue too (not the same as being home, but not disaster either).  

 

And thankfully Seabourn has upped their game with onboard internet - we went in September for a one week Barbados cruise (80 passengers!), and loved it so much we extended for another week; I was able to do a lot of work, calls, Zoom meetings during the day from an amazing space and view (lunchtime was much better than “work” has been this past year)!  Heading to Lisbon next week for the 12 day crossing on Ovation, and quite aware of the risks but still view the procedures/practices in place with both ourselves and Seabourn to be good enough to be willing to accept those risks.  

Edited October 30, 2021 by johng75370

[Catlover54]

2 hours ago, johng75370 said:

One side effect of COVID is a lot of professional work has shifted to working from home, or working remotely.  Part of our decision process as “working folk” on cruising these last few months is that even in quarantine we’d likely have internet, so work could continue too (not the same as being home, but not disaster either).  

 

And thankfully Seabourn has upped their game with onboard internet - we went in September for a one week Barbados cruise (80 passengers!), and loved it so much we extended for another week; I was able to do a lot of work, calls, Zoom meetings during the day from an amazing space and view (lunchtime was much better than “work” has been this past year)!  Heading to Lisbon next week for the 12 day crossing on Ovation, and quite aware of the risks but still view the procedures/practices in place with both ourselves and Seabourn to be good enough to be willing to accept those risks.  

It's nice that you and many others can work from a cruise ship with intermittently reliable ( though getting better) internet, or a hotel room, and that it is possible and allowed despite evidence of productivity declines with online work in some  industries. However, not everyone can do this .  Many  self-employed people need to be on site for their work, e.g., not many surgeries or emergency room intubations can be done online and patients   are counting on doctors being there for services even if docs may be able to afford to be gone from work an extra couple weeks without getting paid.  
We all have to make our own assessments of not just how much financial risk, but also  risk of harming others we take when we electively travel in unpredictable  times and may become unavailable.  
A crossing or cruise to nowhere is also a good option for lowering risk of picking up Covid in a port!  I wish you a wonderful time.

[RetiredandTravel]

The recent advances in antivirals are very promising in the fight against Covid.  If an effective antiviral in a pill form was produced all the concerns of boosters, masks etc would be greatly minimized.  Unfortunately Covid seems to constantly mutate keeping us behind the curve. IMO this is the best possible long term remedy is effective antivirals.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/mercks-covid-19-pill-cuts-risk-death-hospitalization-by-50-study-2021-10-01/

 

 

[frantic36]

9 minutes ago, RetiredandTravel said:

The recent advances in antivirals are very promising in the fight against Covid.  If an effective antiviral in a pill form was produced all the concerns of boosters, masks etc would be greatly minimized.  Unfortunately Covid seems to constantly mutate keeping us behind the curve. IMO this is the best possible long term remedy is effective antivirals.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/mercks-covid-19-pill-cuts-risk-death-hospitalization-by-50-study-2021-10-01/

 

 

 

This is one I am following with interest, hopefully there may be more in the research pipeline. As someone who has taken Tamiflu (brand name) an anti-viral for influenza with good effect. I have a predisposition to bad upper respiratory infections including a couple of times leading to pneumonia, I am thinking these will be a welcome defence against Covid as well as vaccines. 

[RetiredandTravel]

50 minutes ago, frantic36 said:

 

This is one I am following with interest, hopefully there may be more in the research pipeline. As someone who has taken Tamiflu (brand name) an anti-viral for influenza with good effect. I have a predisposition to bad upper respiratory infections including a couple of times leading to pneumonia, I am thinking these will be a welcome defence against Covid as well as vaccines. 

 

I have to think if we are vaccinated, up to date with boosters, and there is a successful antiviral we can travel close to worry free.  This is of serious health risk of course we would still be exposed to the risks of others getting Covid and the cruise lines response.  We still wouldn't do anything high risk like going in a mosh pit, but at our age that would be pretty ugly in any case. 

[frantic36]

1 hour ago, RetiredandTravel said:

We still wouldn't do anything high risk like going in a mosh pit, but at our age that would be pretty ugly in any case. 

 

I generally try keep healthy but agree a mosh pit is to be avoided at my age 😄.

[highplanesdrifters]

2 hours ago, frantic36 said:

 

I generally try keep healthy but agree a mosh pit is to be avoided at my age 😄.

I would pay to see a  mosh pit on Seabourn. They could stage it near the pool and dump passengers in for onboard caviar in the surf.

[claranda]

Nice to hear from Australians planning to come our way, and even nicer to hear that you’re getting vaccinated at last! We’re hoping Australia will in turn open up in time for us to go there at the end of 2022 on a Regent cruise that gets to Sydney on 29 December. In the meantime, we’ve been venturing out and have just returned from a week in Italy (Bologna, Ferrara, Venice). As others have said, it’s a bit of a hassle with forms and tests, but worth it just for the change of scene….the tougher rules on masks in Italy were a bit of a relief after the current free-for-all in the UK.
 

We’re cruising Seabourn in February and Viking in March (if no more cancellations). I would be a bit worried if the requirement for double vaccination was not still in place, I must say. I can understand the wide variation in views here - it’s human nature. Added to which, Seabourn cruisers are usually of a certain age and older people can be more vulnerable as well as more cautious. 

[SLSD]

1 hour ago, claranda said:

 

We’re cruising Seabourn in February and Viking in March (if no more cancellations). I would be a bit worried if the requirement for double vaccination was not still in place, I must say. I can understand the wide variation in views here - it’s human nature. Added to which, Seabourn cruisers are usually of a certain age and older people can be more vulnerable as well as more cautious. 

I hope Seabourn will give us more clarity going forward about vaccination requirements--and perhaps booster requirements as well.  A question--are booster available in the UK?

[malcliz]

2 hours ago, SLSD said:

I hope Seabourn will give us more clarity going forward about vaccination requirements--and perhaps booster requirements as well.  A question--are booster available in the UK?

Yes they are. I had mine today but at the moment they are just given for those over 50 or for those at higher risk. 

[claranda]

13 hours ago, malcliz said:

Yes they are. I had mine today but at the moment they are just given for those over 50 or for those at higher risk. 

Yes, getting ours on 16 November; we’re in our early 70s. Interesting that widespread testing in the UK shows the lowest positive results in the over 60s and the highest in those under 20. Must be the same in the States now? 

[Cruise Puss]

Hi everyone,

 

We are from Oxfordshire England and have just completed a Summer of 5 cruises going out of Southampton and we can honestly say, yes, we loved being back on a Ship again after over 2 years, however, the mask wearing, testing and other restrictions are too much and we will not be cruising again if these do not stop.

 

It is not fun, or normal, to walk around a ship with a mask on. It is not fun to see the crew with masks on.  They are suffering terribly, some have bleeding ears because of wearing them all the time. It's not fun sitting watching any entertainment anywhere with a mask on.  We did not go on any excursions as it would have been unbearable to wear masks the whole time. We did not get off the ship in the Med. at all as we would not have wanted to be found 'positive' and have to be quarantined in a Hotel in a foreign country in separate rooms.   We could go on and on.

 

Suffice to say, if you are willing to put up with the testing every single time you have to board a ship, as well as, in some cases, before you get to a different port;  if you are happy to wear a mask most of the time;  if you are happy not to be able to converse normally with the crew and other passengers, etc etc ......... essentially, if you are happy not to have a normal cruise, then go.

 

We have four cruises booked for next year already, but if these restrictions are still in place we will most definitely be cancelling all of them.

 

We NEED to get back to normal, for everyone's sanity if nothing else.

 

[Fletcher]

26 minutes ago, Cruise Puss said:

Hi everyone,

 

We are from Oxfordshire England and have just completed a Summer of 5 cruises going out of Southampton and we can honestly say, yes, we loved being back on a Ship again after over 2 years, however, the mask wearing, testing and other restrictions are too much and we will not be cruising again if these do not stop.

 

You say you 'loved' being back on a ship again and then you describe how awful it was - the tests, the masks,  the suffering staff, the fear of going on an excursion etc.  Yes, I can see how you loved being back on a ship again.  You summarise very clearly the worries and reluctance people have right now.

 

We won't be cruising until June and I suddenly realise how lucky we might be to stick to just one country - Norway - and one of the remotest places on the planet.