Tipping now more important than ever

[wowzz]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

Why do you have a problem with that? Should we all have the same opinion, and mutually congratulate each other for doing so? You are free to write anything I disagree with, and have complete confidence that I will not attempt to insult or belittle you or cast any aspersions on your character.

 

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

Why do you have a problem with that? Should we all have the same opinion, and mutually congratulate each other for doing so? You are free to write anything I disagree with, and have complete confidence that I will not attempt to insult or belittle you or cast any aspersions on your character.

I have no problem at all with you expressing your views.

I was replying to KBs post that your views were similar to many other Brits. I was merely stating that I was not one of the Brits in question.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

As I've said before, I don't agree with everything Peter Lanky has said, but I get the impression that you dont understand what he was saying, or the case for salary instead of tips he is making. You certainly don't understand how us Brits interact with each other. 

His views are not considered particularly unusual in Britain. 

You have a wierd view of what socialism is, and the causes of income disparities between different countries. 

In what way have I shown a “weird view of what socialism is” ?  I have simply identified some of the obvious views of another poster.

 

I do not think anyone here has mentioned, or even considered “the causes of income disparities between different countries” - I know I have mentioned that those disparities exist - and that they play a significant part in the employment of cruise ship staff.  I hope you also realize that such disparities exist - and are able to comprehend that such disparities play a large part in the staffing of cruise ships — primarily as it involves the staff providing service to passengers — the staff primarily effected by tipping policies.

Edited March 3, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Which the person who started this thread disagreed with and explained their conclusion very well, and which is a conclusion I support. In other words, keeping things as they were was not the answer, and passengers giving charity was not the answer. I'm getting the distinct impression that those who think that the status quo works very well are making the assumption that their opinion is the opinion of everyone, which is incorrect.

 

Nobody had yet attempted to answer my question as to why they believe many cruise lines are moving towards the 'non tipping cruise' model. 

I guess there is one thing we can agree on, we will continue to disagree.

 

And if we ever meet, does the beer really have to be warm? 

[wowzz]

19 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And if we ever meet, does the beer really have to be warm? 

I can't speak for Mr Lanky, but in my opinion, beer warm (room temperature), lager cold !

And Budweiser/Coors etc should not be drunk at all !😁 

[Peter Lanky]

18 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I guess there is one thing we can agree on, we will continue to disagree.

 

And if we ever meet, does the beer really have to be warm? 

I'm sure we can arrange a warm beer for myself and a cold one for you. I would no doubt attempt to convince you of the obvious benefits of British ale, but I know I can never expect to find this on a cruise, so wine will be my choice of tipple.

[ontheweb]

5 minutes ago, wowzz said:

I can't speak for Mr Lanky, but in my opinion, beer warm (room temperature), lager cold !

And Budweiser/Coors etc should not be drunk at all !😁 

And if this thread now devolves into discussing beer, the post count might just run into the tens of thousands.🤣

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

In what way have I shown a “weird view of what socialism is” ?  I have simply identified some of the obvious views of another poster.

 

I do not think anyone here has mentioned, or even considered “the causes of income disparities between different countries” - I know I have mentioned that those disparities exist - and that they play a significant part in the employment of cruise ship staff.  I hope you also realize that such disparities exist - and are able to comprehend that such disparities play a large part in the staffing of cruise ships — primarily as it involves the staff providing service to passengers — the staff primarily effected by tipping policies.

Believe me, I'm nothing like a socialist, yet at the same time I would like to see an large reduction in the gap between lowest and highest paid. I try to consider every situation on it's merit. I also appreciate that prices can be kept low by employing staff from developing countries who can expect higher wages than at home but lower than those of the countries where the customers reside. However I will never understand why the mechanics of them receiving that money needs to be so complicated, when it could be so simple with the same result.

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

In what way have I shown a “weird view of what socialism is” ?  I have simply identified some of the obvious views of another poster.

 

I do not think anyone here has mentioned, or even considered “the causes of income disparities between different countries” - I know I have mentioned that those disparities exist - and that they play a significant part in the employment of cruise ship staff.  I hope you also realize that such disparities exist - and are able to comprehend that such disparities play a large part in the staffing of cruise ships — primarily as it involves the staff providing service to passengers — the staff primarily effected by tipping policies.

His views are nothing to do with  socialism, your opinion that colonialism has something to do with differing levels of income of ship staff is not reflective of the many actual causes. 

Not all ship crew are from countries which have lower wages. Where such crew do work on the ships its because they can earn higher wages than they can get at home, usually they are paid the same as crew from countries that have higher wages. Cruise companies hire most staff from agencies. The agencies pay according to various legislations, depending on where they are based and maritime law. 

The mass market lines have cheap prices because of the nickel and diming, not so much because of low pay. 

[KBs mum]

11 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And if this thread now devolves into discussing beer, the post count might just run into the tens of thousands.🤣

Sat in pub with a book. Ready when you are! 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by KBs mum

[KBs mum]

2 hours ago, wowzz said:

 

I have no problem at all with you expressing your views.

I was replying to KBs post that your views were similar to many other Brits. I was merely stating that I was not one of the Brits in question.

I didn't say they were similar to many other Brits, I said they wouldn't be considered particularly unusual. 

Different statements with different meanings. 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

… However I will never understand why the mechanics of them receiving that money needs to be so complicated, when it could be so simple with the same result.

The primary reason people from poorer countries work on cruise ships is because they can earn more than at home.  A number of countries which supply such workers tax the income the cruise lines pay - but not “gifts” (extra cash paid directly from passengers to the staff).  That being the case, the ends of the workers on those ships are better met if some of their income is from such tips rather than paid/distributed by the line.  
 

Once you recognize that the crews’ financial interest might matter as much as your discomfort with tipping, you might better understand why the complication might be appropriate.

[iancal]

I do not understand the issue.

 

If you want to tip then do so,  if not the do not.  How others spend their money is not my business, nor am I about to judge their practices.

 

From my perspective it is very much a MYOB issue.   I doubt whether anyone will persuade a poster to tip more, tip less, or not.

 

Clearly practices differ from one country to another.  Who on earth is going to be so arrogant as to believe that a practice, whatever it is, in one country should be the standard for all others?

 

We tip generously for good service.  We really do not care what others do.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by iancal

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, KBs mum said:

Sat in pub with a book. Ready when you are! 

 

Could we also order some fish and chips?

[Peter Lanky]

31 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

The primary reason people from poorer countries work on cruise ships is because they can earn more than at home.  A number of countries which supply such workers tax the income the cruise lines pay - but not “gifts” (extra cash paid directly from passengers to the staff).  That being the case, the ends of the workers on those ships are better met if some of their income is from such tips rather than paid/distributed by the line.  
 

Once you recognize that the crews’ financial interest might matter as much as your discomfort with tipping, you might better understand why the complication might be appropriate.

I'm certain that the tipping culture never took that into consideration, though it is a fair point. Easily solvable by paying them slightly more at 12% extra to allow for the tax loss. Then their home countries make a little extra in tax income and social conscience is catered for twofold. How could you argue with that? As the total payroll of all crew is only around 10% of revenue, the extra cost to passengers would be insignificant.

[Peter Lanky]

46 minutes ago, iancal said:

I do not understand the issue.

 

If you want to tip then do so,  if not the do not.

 

If only it was like that. It's the compulsory issue that many of us have an problem with.

[KBs mum]

45 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Could we also order some fish and chips?

Yes, it's chip van night, so I'll send someone along with a list. Do you want cod, haddock or plaice? 

[iancal]

20 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

If only it was like that. It's the compulsory issue that many of us have an problem with.

Never done so or even considered it, but our understanding is that you can request to have those gratuities cancelled and removed from your on board account.

 

If you do not like the vendor, the product, the offering, or the pricing then simply vote with your feet and with your wallet.  Select an alternative travel product. 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by iancal

[navybankerteacher]

12 minutes ago, iancal said:

Never done so or even considered it, but our understanding is that you can request to have those gratuities cancelled and removed from your on board account.

 

If you do not like the vendor, the product, the offering, or the pricing then simply vote with your feet and with your wallet.  Select an alternative travel product. 

 

 

Some people do not want to make such a choice - they seem to prefer requiring others to comply with their views.

[Peter Lanky]

On post 748 I asked the question "But now a new option is emerging in the shape of more non tipping cruises. Why do you think cruise lines may be doing this?"

 

No takers so far. It's not a trick question, but one particularly aimed at the 'everything is OK as it is' camp.

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

I do not understand the issue.

 

If you want to tip then do so,  if not the do not.  How others spend their money is not my business, nor am I about to judge their practices.

 

From my perspective it is very much a MYOB issue.   I doubt whether anyone will persuade a poster to tip more, tip less, or not.

 

Clearly practices differ from one country to another.  Who on earth is going to be so arrogant as to believe that a practice, whatever it is, in one country should be the standard for all others?

 

We tip generously for good service.  We really do not care what others do.

 

The issue for those who would prefer higher wages passed on to the customer via higher prices is that we think that it would be a better method of renumeration for the employee, being reliable, fairer and not affected by things beyond their control. Also people from other cultures can't get it wrong if all they are expected to pay is the amount on the bill/menu/sticker. 

The customer and how they choose to spend their cash is not our primary concern. The non tip system works well in many countries and on several cruise lines, so we are stating the case for it to be universal

[KBs mum]

6 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

On post 748 I asked the question "But now a new option is emerging in the shape of more non tipping cruises. Why do you think cruise lines may be doing this?"

 

No takers so far. It's not a trick question, but one particularly aimed at the 'everything is OK as it is' camp.

I'm in the higher wages instead of tips camp. My theory is that as more people remove the gratuities from their payments (either because they prefer to tip directly, or they come from a non tipping culture) the cruise lines still have to meet the staff incomes required by contracts or legislation and so up the prices to cover their extra expenditure. I also think that all inclusive is popular with those on a budget, or at the other end of the financial spectrum, may add to a perception of luxury

 

[Toofarfromthesea]

15 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

What I don't like is people questioning my character or personality, because nobody on here, including the many who agree with me, know anything about who I am. 

 

 

We're just reading what you write and drawing reasonable inferences.  You'd be amazed at how your fixation reveals so much of your character and personality.

[Toofarfromthesea]

7 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

I'm sure we can arrange a warm beer for myself and a cold one for you. I would no doubt attempt to convince you of the obvious benefits of British ale, but I know I can never expect to find this on a cruise, so wine will be my choice of tipple.

 

See, this right here is the kind of thing that is so revealing.  You are compelled to try to impose YOUR ideas and taste on others.  The tip-off is that you "would no doubt attempt to convince you of the obvious benefits of British ale" while a normal person would understand that it is not a one-size fits all world.  I like Zywiec Porter, but I'd never try to convince anyone of its benefits.  I'd just let them try it and decide for themself. 

 

This thread right here is another example.  It makes up a HUGE percentage of your participation on this board.  Earlier you said you vowed to not post on this thread again, but the sad truth is that you just can't seem to help yourself.  You seem to fit Winston Churchill's definition of a fanatic -- "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

[Toofarfromthesea]

5 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

If only it was like that. It's the compulsory issue that many of us have an problem with.

 

Then why are Americans being hammered for their tipping?  If I tip in a situation, it doesn't make it compulsory for YOU to tip in that situation.  So what's the problem?

[Toofarfromthesea]

5 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Yes, it's chip van night, so I'll send someone along with a list. Do you want cod, haddock or plaice? 

 

Some of the best fish & chips I ever had was in a port side restaurant in Alaska while on an Alaskan cruise.  Just to bring things back to cruising, LOL.