Tor: COVID is really behind us...

[rbslos18]

5 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

Or accept it is endemic, vaccines as reccomended prevent serious illness, so as is increasingly the case in Europe, treat covid in the same way as any other infectious disease. If you've got it, try to avoid passing it on, otherwise carry on as normal. 

Those who need to self isolate should be given assistance to do so. 

The assumption is it is endemic. What would you specifically change in my proposal?

[njhorseman]

7 hours ago, shadowlover said:

No one I know who has received the vaccines and then tested positive has had any symptoms worse than a mild cold.

 

1 hour ago, rbslos18 said:

What you describe is scientifically true.

These posts really anger me. 

@shadowloverwould you like me to introduce you to a family we know who just lost their vaccinated husband and father to COVID? He wasn't a senior citizen either...or someone with a disabling illness. A middle aged middle class working man.

@rbslos18 please show me the evidence proving that what was said is "scientifically true.'" There certainly is not a zero death rate from COVID for those who are vaccinated.

Edited April 24, 2022 by njhorseman

[Jim Avery]

28 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

These posts really anger me. 

@shadowloverwould you like me to introduce you to a family we know who just lost their vaccinated husband and father to COVID? He wasn't a senior citizen either...or someone with a disabling illness. A middle aged middle class working man.

@rbslos18 please show me the evidence proving that what was said is "scientifically true.'" There certainly is not a zero death rate from COVID for those who are vaccinated.

But is the world supposed to shut down because sometimes bad things happen to good people??

[SJD117]

38 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

These posts really anger me. 

 

It's only Cruise Critic. Why get angry? Relax and smell the roses.

[shadowlover]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

 

These posts really anger me. 

@shadowloverwould you like me to introduce you to a family we know who just lost their vaccinated husband and father to COVID? He wasn't a senior citizen either...or someone with a disabling illness. A middle aged middle class working man.

@rbslos18 please show me the evidence proving that what was said is "scientifically true.'" There certainly is not a zero death rate from COVID for those who are vaccinated.

I never said there was a zero death rate in a vaccinated person.  I certainly take this virus seriously.  My point remains that if we are taking the risk to travel then we are factoring in things such as our vaccinated status, our immune system and history of illness etc.   I am 100 percent pro vaccination.  I am pro masking in confined spaces.  I am also a critical thinker and follow statistics.  Statistically- vaccinated people are extremely less likely to become very sick to the point of hospitalization and vaccinated people are extremely less likely to die from covid 19.  I am sure anyone can show me outliers but lets deal with statistics.  If we are taking the "risk" to travel, and the risk is much lower with fully vaccinated people, then we need to be a little bit more comfortable with no daily testing, no unnecessary quarantining and disruption of our trip!  I don't mean to upset anyone, but those of us willing to travel need to be willing to absorb some risk.  The risk of daily testing, in my opinion far outweighs the benefits.   Lets test symptomatic travelers, treat them with anti viral medications to keep them well and isolate them if necessary.   We all know that we are being exposed daily to covid 19 right?  Do we need everyone around us tested to prove this to us?  

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm

https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2021/10/covid-19-vaccines-prevented-nearly-140000-us-deaths

[rbslos18]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

 

These posts really anger me. 

@shadowloverwould you like me to introduce you to a family we know who just lost their vaccinated husband and father to COVID? He wasn't a senior citizen either...or someone with a disabling illness. A middle aged middle class working man.

@rbslos18 please show me the evidence proving that what was said is "scientifically true.'" There certainly is not a zero death rate from COVID for those who are vaccinated.

No one can say there is zero death rate from COVID. It is scientifically true the 

 

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

 

These posts really anger me. 

@shadowloverwould you like me to introduce you to a family we know who just lost their vaccinated husband and father to COVID? He wasn't a senior citizen either...or someone with a disabling illness. A middle aged middle class working man.

@rbslos18 please show me the evidence proving that what was said is "scientifically true.'" There certainly is not a zero death rate from COVID for those who are vaccinated.

Zero death rate would be preposterous. The BA.2 variant while more contagious typically does not result in death for those vaccinated. It’s symptoms are typically mild. Hospitalizations also continue to decline. There are tragic exceptions. Read interviews of Dr Scott Gottlieb or Johns Hopkins data website. 

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

But is the world supposed to shut down because sometimes bad things happen to good people??

No, of course not. I've argued strongly on this board that there's no medical justification for Viking to do daily testing of vaccinated asymptomatic passengers who were not close contacts of known positive cases. But that's not the same as saying that no one who comes down with COVID gets anything worse than cold symptoms  and justifying it because the person making the statement doesn't know anyone who has been sicker than that, followed by someone claiming it was scientific fact which it clearly isn't, is just tomfoolery.

 

[njhorseman]

59 minutes ago, shadowlover said:

I never said there was a zero death rate in a vaccinated person.  I certainly take this virus seriously.  My point remains that if we are taking the risk to travel then we are factoring in things such as our vaccinated status, our immune system and history of illness etc.   I am 100 percent pro vaccination.  I am pro masking in confined spaces.  I am also a critical thinker and follow statistics.  Statistically- vaccinated people are extremely less likely to become very sick to the point of hospitalization and vaccinated people are extremely less likely to die from covid 19.  I am sure anyone can show me outliers but lets deal with statistics.  If we are taking the "risk" to travel, and the risk is much lower with fully vaccinated people, then we need to be a little bit more comfortable with no daily testing, no unnecessary quarantining and disruption of our trip!  I don't mean to upset anyone, but those of us willing to travel need to be willing to absorb some risk.  The risk of daily testing, in my opinion far outweighs the benefits.   Lets test symptomatic travelers, treat them with anti viral medications to keep them well and isolate them if necessary.   We all know that we are being exposed daily to covid 19 right?  Do we need everyone around us tested to prove this to us?  

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm

https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2021/10/covid-19-vaccines-prevented-nearly-140000-us-deaths

 I'm a mathematician and retired actuary. Let me assure you that  I fully understand how to interpret the data.

If you had said the above in your first post I would not have had an argument with it. But here's what you actually said, which in some sense is worse than saying there's a zero death rate in vaccinated persons. "No one I know who has received the vaccines and then tested positive has had any symptoms worse than a mild cold." That you don't know anyone who had more than a cold as justification for your position is a 100% specious and empty argument. I don't know anyone who has leukemia. Does that mean no one in the world has leukemia?  Get the point?

[njhorseman]

51 minutes ago, rbslos18 said:

No one can say there is zero death rate from COVID. It is scientifically true the 

 

Zero death rate would be preposterous. The BA.2 variant while more contagious typically does not result in death for those vaccinated. It’s symptoms are typically mild. Hospitalizations also continue to decline. There are tragic exceptions. Read interviews of Dr Scott Gottlieb or Johns Hopkins data website. 

I'm a mathematician and I understand the data. Never did I say that the latest variants are as deadly, particularly for those who are vaccinated. But that's not what the poster whose position you're supporting said. The argument for the position he took is " No one I know who has received the vaccines and then tested positive has had any symptoms worse than a mild cold" , which while perhaps true in terms of his personal experience is anything but scientifically true. A single person's observation of a small number of people does not create a scientific truth.

Edited April 24, 2022 by njhorseman

[shadowlover]

44 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 I'm a mathematician and retired actuary. Let me assure you that  I fully understand how to interpret the data.

If you had said the above in your first post I would not have had an argument with it. But here's what you actually said, which in some sense is worse than saying there's a zero death rate in vaccinated persons. "No one I know who has received the vaccines and then tested positive has had any symptoms worse than a mild cold." That you don't know anyone who had more than a cold as justification for your position is a 100% specious and empty argument. I don't know anyone who has leukemia. Does that mean no one in the world has leukemia?  Get the point?

Actually what I said "no one I know who has received the vaccines and then tested positive has had any symptoms worse than a mild cold" is 100 percent true statement... I didn't imply that no one had died- YOU interpreted what I said according to what you thought I was saying and thus became upset.   I work in health care and have tons of positive cases come across my desk top daily- those who have been vaccinated aren't ending up in the hospital trust me. 

 I believe you stated that you know someone who died from covid after a vaccine.  Am I then to get upset that you believe that no one is protected from the vaccine??? Because you can show me one person who died after receiving the vaccine?   Get the point???   My point has been stated and has been totally and scientifically proven to be statistically correct.   After vaccination against covid 19 it is much less likely for someone to become sick enough for hospitalizations and even less likely for them to die from covid 19 infection.  If you are who you say you are then please go back and do some more research on the numbers and statistical probabilities.

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by shadowlover
grammar

[shadowlover]

31 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

I'm a mathematician and I understand the data. Never did I say that the latest variants are as deadly, particularly for those who are vaccinated. But that's not what the poster whose position you're supporting said. The argument for the position he took is " No one I know who has received the vaccines and then tested positive has had any symptoms worse than a mild cold" , which while perhaps true in terms of his personal experience is anything but scientifically true. A single person's observation of a small number of people does not create a scientific truth.

I wish I saw this before I answered your comment to me.  " A single person's observation of a small number of people (your friend who died) does not create a scientific truth.  Another vital truth in science is to not take things out of context.  You clearly were not following the conversation when you reacted to my statement.  

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, shadowlover said:

Actually what I said "no one I know who has received the vaccines and then tested positive has had any symptoms worse than a mild cold" is 100 percent true statement

100% true but 100% invalid as a scientific, mathematical or logical argument.

 

2 hours ago, shadowlover said:

 After vaccination against covid 19 it is much less likely for someone to become sick enough for hospitalizations and even less likely for them to die from covid 19 infection.

"Much less likely" is not the same as saying they can't.

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, shadowlover said:

I wish I saw this before I answered your comment to me.  " A single person's observation of a small number of people (your friend who died) does not create a scientific truth.  Another vital truth in science is to not take things out of context.  You clearly were not following the conversation when you reacted to my statement.  

No, what I said is scientific, mathematical and logical truth. What I gave you is what's called a counterexample. A counterexample only requires a single example to disprove a general conclusion or hypothesis. An often used example is that the statement "all dogs are hairy" can be proved false by finding a single hairless dog . https://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/counterexample.html 

 

You can't extend your limited, personal experience with a small finite number of people who had nothing worse than cold symptoms to somehow create a general statement that is a valid foundation for the entire population. 

[CILCIANRQTS]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

No, what I said is scientific, mathematical and logical truth. What I gave you is what's called a counterexample. A counterexample only requires a single example to disprove a general conclusion or hypothesis. An often used example is that the statement "all dogs are hairy" can be proved false by finding a single hairless dog . https://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/counterexample.html 

 

You can't extend your limited, personal experience with a small finite number of people who had nothing worse than cold symptoms to somehow create a general statement that is a valid foundation for the entire population. 

And yet another COVID debate goes on and on ad infinitum.

Folks, life is not a zero sum game where they have to be wrong for you to be right.

 

[shadowlover]

6 hours ago, CILCIANRQTS said:

And yet another COVID debate goes on and on ad infinitum.

Folks, life is not a zero sum game where they have to be wrong for you to be right.

 

A voice of reason!  Thank you.  The saddest part is that this person arguing with me has no idea that we both probably fundamentally agree.  It was a circular argument where misinterpretation led to speculation and anger.  Anyway- I don't need to continue to engage.  I already know I'm right 🙂

[shadowlover]

13 hours ago, shadowlover said:

I never said there was a zero death rate in a vaccinated person.  I certainly take this virus seriously.  My point remains that if we are taking the risk to travel then we are factoring in things such as our vaccinated status, our immune system and history of illness etc.   I am 100 percent pro vaccination.  I am pro masking in confined spaces.  I am also a critical thinker and follow statistics.  Statistically- vaccinated people are extremely less likely to become very sick to the point of hospitalization and vaccinated people are extremely less likely to die from covid 19.  I am sure anyone can show me outliers but lets deal with statistics.  If we are taking the "risk" to travel, and the risk is much lower with fully vaccinated people, then we need to be a little bit more comfortable with no daily testing, no unnecessary quarantining and disruption of our trip!  I don't mean to upset anyone, but those of us willing to travel need to be willing to absorb some risk.  The risk of daily testing, in my opinion far outweighs the benefits.   Lets test symptomatic travelers, treat them with anti viral medications to keep them well and isolate them if necessary.   We all know that we are being exposed daily to covid 19 right?  Do we need everyone around us tested to prove this to us?  

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm

https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2021/10/covid-19-vaccines-prevented-nearly-140000-us-deaths

And let's reiterate my POINT  (above) instead of picking on something said, twisting it into an exaggeration and getting our panties in a twist.  No one needs to agree with my point but let's not accuse me of believing something that I don't.  Thank you.  I can see how some people may have trouble making friends 🙂

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, shadowlover said:

A voice of reason!  Thank you.  The saddest part is that this person arguing with me has no idea that we both probably fundamentally agree.  It was a circular argument where misinterpretation led to speculation and anger.  Anyway- I don't need to continue to engage.  I already know I'm right 🙂

 

59 minutes ago, shadowlover said:

And let's reiterate my POINT  (above) instead of picking on something said, twisting it into an exaggeration and getting our panties in a twist.  No one needs to agree with my point but let's not accuse me of believing something that I don't.  Thank you.  I can see how some people may have trouble making friends 🙂

Quote from you: "Anyway- I don't need to continue to engage".

Actual behavior from you: Continue to engage and throw in gratuitous insults for good measure.

[Blackduck59]

And so it goes on.

[OnTheJourney]

16 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

And so it goes on.

Yeah, really. Maybe someday we'll move beyond all this and get back to discussing less 'weighty' topics. 

[Jim Avery]

5 minutes ago, AnyWayIsGood said:

Yeah, really. Maybe someday we'll move beyond all this and get back to discussing less 'weighty' topics. 

Yes, discussion would be nice.  The current vast divide seems to preclude any consideration that your point (any point)  might be valid.  A dangerous place to be.  The only person I know who is always right is .......  Me!  🍸  Ok, weak attempt at a joke to lighten up.

[shadowlover]

Social media can be a difficult place to "discuss" anything, especially lately.   I feel like there should be some reminders and tips for healthy discussions.  I fear that there are some who can turn any conversation into a "weighty topic".  I've seen some real silly stuff.  People giving opinions about food or something so subjective and others slamming them for their opinion.  We all have different backgrounds and different expectations.  However, for the most part I shall continue to read the forums and look forward to my distant cruise.

 

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

Yes, discussion would be nice.  The current vast divide seems to preclude any consideration that your point (any point)  might be valid.  A dangerous place to be.  The only person I know who is always right is .......  Me!  🍸  Ok, weak attempt at a joke to lighten up.

We could allways have an argument about tipping if we need some compatitively light entertainment. 

I'll start - Don't eat biscuits (cookies) in bed

[Twitchly]

2 hours ago, AnyWayIsGood said:

Yeah, really. Maybe someday we'll move beyond all this and get back to discussing less 'weighty' topics. 

As a person of size*, I am deeply offended by your use of the term “weighty.” I prefer “differently weighted.”  Or better yet, “svelte.”
 

 

*Especially after a Viking cruise. 

[Jim Avery]

Heavy man, heavy😎

[shadowlover]

2 hours ago, Twitchly said:

As a person of size*, I am deeply offended by your use of the term “weighty.” I prefer “differently weighted.”  Or better yet, “svelte.”
 

 

*Especially after a Viking cruise. 

Seriously.  Cruises have plenty to eat at all times making it difficult for those svelte.  I mean I don't know anyone who hasn't gained weight on a viking cruise.

uh oh.....