Impact of Change in COVID Testing Policy

[OnTheJourney]

4 hours ago, DGHOC said:

Some of these halfwitted, non scientific, ill-considered posts make me despair. I think it's often that the keyboard is engaged before the brain.

Well said, especially the last sentence!  

 

9 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Well, we have just cancelled 2 cruises comprising 165-days and while the primary reason was a medical issue,

Most sorry to hear of this as well. And, as was already stated, your posts are indeed always well thought out, well constructed, and well balanced. 

 

9 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

I, for one, cannot comprehend why, with reliable non-invasive testing available, that anyone would complain about preventing the spread of an infectious disease, to not only their fellow passengers, but also the hard-working crew, who strive to meet their every need.

Surely an excellent point and I hope that anything I've expressed relative to the daily PCR tests does not fall within the realm of those who chose to "complain". My wife and I simply felt the PCR testing to be a bit of an inconvenience from the standpoint of taking much longer than we anticipated, plus it delayed morning medication schedules. We'd wake up with dry mouth and just really had trouble getting up enough 'spit'. Never expected the required sample to be as much as it was. Then, the other issue is that it made us actually more worried about testing positive than if there had been no testing. Positive cases show up either way, of course, but as you correctly point out, the testing surely helps control and hopefully minimizes the spread before it becomes a substantial outbreak. I never meant to imply, as others may have, that the testing is in any way a 'waste of time' or 'ineffective', and such. I think the problem - and perhaps most of the complaining - is from those who have been on other lines that have never done the level of testing that Viking has, and thus simply don't want to deal with it. That angle, unfortunate and inconsiderate as it may be, was probably where we were coming from relative to our thoughts before the Chairman's cruise being that we did a (non-Viking) cruise back in March that only required pre-cruise testing, and just felt more relaxed during it and thought far less about covid, in general, compared to the daily testing - which sort of constantly brings to mind the thought of possibly testing positive. I AM surprised, however, at the about-face for Viking to go from - as you say - the best testing protocol in the industry, to basically no testing. That is something I would have never expected. I can only assume that they have not been filling ships despite some statements made to the contrary. 

 

Sorry again to hear about your cancellations. Best wishes going forward, especially health-wise. Hope you can continue your travels again shortly 🙂

[OnTheJourney]

1 hour ago, CurlerRob said:

When Viking implemented their on-board labs,

Reason enough - unless people are choosing other lines over Viking - to continue with testing. I can only imagine the cost of putting the labs in place, and so would not have expected a complete discontinuation. If anything, perhaps a reduction in testing to only every other day or else a somewhat random schedule. Time will tell. I highly suspect they'll have occasion to start using them again - possibly sooner rather than later. There is obviously a segment of pax who don't now want to cruise with Viking because of the discontinuation of testing, but unfortunately as the case may be, probably far MORE people who might be drawn back to Viking (or first timers willing to go) now that they're not testing. Cruising is ultimately a market, like anything else, and people will 'shop' and spend their money where they feel best suits their purposes. Viking surely appeals to a smaller segment of the overall cruise market to begin with. 

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, CurlerRob said:

Sorry to hear of your cancellations, Andy - it's only fitting for you to touch some of the spots you missed in 2020!

 

Your post reminded me of an interesting side issue. There actually is testing for Noro - it's the very same PCR technology used for COVID. While lab testing is not the norm for pax with Noro (any competent medical professional can diagnose it from the symptoms), it's been used for many years to confirm the source of an outbreak.

 

Norovirus Laboratory Diagnosis | CDC

 

When Viking implemented their on-board labs, I wondered if they would be serving a dual purpose over time, however, that speculation appears wrong. One of the things I do wish for is the inclusion of COVID reporting in the CDC VSP - having also experienced a large Noro outbreak, we use that data as a consideration for our travel choices. 🍺🥌

 

Thanks Rob - Wasn't aware that they have a test for Noro, which along with COVID would be a huge positive for enhancing health for both crew and pax on cruise ships.

 

Since the other cruise lines didn't implement COVID testing, it is little wonder they haven't implemented Noro testing.

 

When you experienced the large Noro outbreak, was the entire ship also quarantined by the local authorities?

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, AnyWayIsGood said:

Surely an excellent point and I hope that anything I've expressed relative to the daily PCR tests does not fall within the realm of those who chose to "complain".

 

Most definitely not, as your posts have all been very well reasoned, expressing the difficulties you experienced with providing the samples. From reading your posts, you accepted the requirement for testing, just found it difficult.

 

With respect to the concern over quarantine, in my experience, this is normal, as the potential exists on every cruise and always has. In 2008, we experienced a massive Noro outbreak with over 50% reporting to the medical centre, so the actual numbers were much higher. The local authorities initially quarantined the entire ship, which even included those that were not infected, or had recovered.

 

Therefore, the risk of quarantine is just as much of a potential with or without testing. In fact, for those not infected, I'll suggest the quarantine risk is less with daily testing. 

[Twitchly]

13 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Well, we have just cancelled 2 cruises comprising 165-days and while the primary reason was a medical issue, I can assure you that having spent 4 or 5 months on ships for many years, the lack of testing was definitely a concern before we cancelled.

Andy, we may not agree on all things Covid, but I am sorry to hear that a medical issue has caused you to have to cancel. We have been facing a similar situation; just got a reprieve for our cruise in September but have a big question mark after that. 
 

Hoping for the best of outcomes for you and your family.

[CurlerRob]

5 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

When you experienced the large Noro outbreak, was the entire ship also quarantined by the local authorities?

No, we were fortunate that it was contained to a code red on the ship for about 2 weeks - nothing as severe as you encountered with being disembarked, or full ship quarantine.

 

We only learned well after that 2013 trip, from the VSP listings, that the actual bug was E. Coli, not Norovirus. Slightly easier symptoms for some, but still no fun! 🍺🥌

[shadowlover]

22 hours ago, Gig Harbor Explorere said:

Rudy, although I have some trouble following your comment, you sound like the sort of fellow who would be very happy to cruise right now. By all means, go and have a ball! However, you seem to miss my essential point. Viking abruptly changed their successful Covid control protocols without warning or prior announcement. In fact, they were boasting about the effectiveness of their measures right up until the day we boarded. Transparency matters. Also, regarding the “masks will protect you” comment, we religiously wore masks prior to and during the cruise. We also maintained as much space from others as possible at all times. These measures were of no use given the large numbers of fellow passengers who couldn’t be bothered, and given the extreme amount of Covid all around us. We had been super careful, fully vexed, double boosted, and meticulously avoided Covid for two and a half years until we boarded our cruise.This pair of minority extremists paid for our expensive vacation too. We had been led to believe the protections we based our decision on would be there for us. We were misled. 

So you became severely ill?  Or did you just catch covid?  Have moderate cold symptoms and a cough?  Were you hospitalized?   Let's be honest... I have had four vaccines and have worked as a nurse practitioner throughout the entire pandemic with a high risk population.  I never contracted the disease.  I went unmasked to visit my brand new grand baby and did end up with covid from my close interaction with her and her mother ( who had cold symptoms but were testing negative).  This is a contagious illness.  You can mitigate all you want but at THE END OF THE DAY this has become for most of us a moderate cold.  It's not going away and the draconian measures taken by viking were simply way over done.  They can not be maintained or they will go bankrupt and none of us will cruise. No need to agree with me in any way.  Just letting people know that I don't speak from lack of knowledge, education or experience!

 

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, shadowlover said:

So you became severely ill?  Or did you just catch covid?  Have moderate cold symptoms and a cough?  Were you hospitalized?   Let's be honest... I have had four vaccines and have worked as a nurse practitioner throughout the entire pandemic with a high risk population.  I never contracted the disease.  I went unmasked to visit my brand new grand baby and did end up with covid from my close interaction with her and her mother ( who had cold symptoms but were testing negative).  This is a contagious illness.  You can mitigate all you want but at THE END OF THE DAY this has become for most of us a moderate cold.  It's not going away and the draconian measures taken by viking were simply way over done.  They can not be maintained or they will go bankrupt and none of us will cruise. No need to agree with me in any way.  Just letting people know that I don't speak from lack of knowledge, education or experience!

 

 

Well, I also don't speak from a lack of knowledge, education or experience, but mine is actually in the marine industry, having spent almost 40 years on passenger ships, with most of those years in command.

 

In the marine industry we have a saying that is relevant to many industries - "Every company pays for health and safety, at one time or another." You pay reasonable amounts for safety now, or you open the bank vault later." Since my last company actually lost a ship, I have a little experience in this area, having developed a complete best in class safety management system. In the marine industry, few if any, companies offering best in class health and safety systems have gone bankrupt. 

 

With the increase in virus load, the Bridge Team will be isolated from all pax and most of the hotel crew. This is standard practice on passenger ships when they have a virus spreading. They don't have spare officers and any shortage of watchkeepers results in an increased risk due to human factors issues. When I worked on the ships, this was fairly rare, but with COVID, the ships will have significantly increased "Red" status, requiring isolation of the Bridge & Engineering teams.

 

Therefore, those that pushed for the cessation of testing and the consequential increase in virus aboard, you have ensured the officers responsible for your safety aboard the ship are forced into an existence that includes their cabin and the Bridge or E/R. 

[shadowlover]

8 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Well, I also don't speak from a lack of knowledge, education or experience, but mine is actually in the marine industry, having spent almost 40 years on passenger ships, with most of those years in command.

 

In the marine industry we have a saying that is relevant to many industries - "Every company pays for health and safety, at one time or another." You pay reasonable amounts for safety now, or you open the bank vault later." Since my last company actually lost a ship, I have a little experience in this area, having developed a complete best in class safety management system. In the marine industry, few if any, companies offering best in class health and safety systems have gone bankrupt. 

 

With the increase in virus load, the Bridge Team will be isolated from all pax and most of the hotel crew. This is standard practice on passenger ships when they have a virus spreading. They don't have spare officers and any shortage of watchkeepers results in an increased risk due to human factors issues. When I worked on the ships, this was fairly rare, but with COVID, the ships will have significantly increased "Red" status, requiring isolation of the Bridge & Engineering teams.

 

Therefore, those that pushed for the cessation of testing and the consequential increase in virus aboard, you have ensured the officers responsible for your safety aboard the ship are forced into an existence that includes their cabin and the Bridge or E/R. 

I guess the only thing that will prove this is time.  We need some time now to see what happens with the daily testing and quarantining being put to an end.  We really can't speculate because it's only been a few weeks.  Yes- there are apparently many more cases but I'm not seeing reports of mass ships not being allowed to dock, passengers dying etc.  Why don't we wait a bit and see how it goes with the new measures.  Everyone on board has to be up to date with vaccines and the crew is masked.  I think being alarmist about lack of staff and safety is unwarranted at this point.  I haven't seen any reports of passengers saying as much.  In the hospital we also had to deal (and still do) with staff shortages due to sick time but we make do.  

[SempreMare]

@Heidi13, I'm happy you're making the best decision for you,  your family, and anyone lucky enough to know you. I subscribe to your newsletter (cam....357@gmail...).   Totally enjoy your and Judi's blog.  Lots of entertaining and interesting detail there.

 

 

I also wish Viking were still doing testing each day, whether PCR or at least Rapid Antigen. 

 

Rapid Antigen testing would be massively BTN (Better Than Nothing).

in below note, the yellow highlighting is mine. 

 

From the detailed report, sample size n = 306

>> In this study, 306 nasopharyngeal samples were analyzed. 

 

 

Https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35348350/#:~:text=The antigen test was 100.0,99.9% compared to viral culture.

 

[Heidi13]

6 minutes ago, shadowlover said:

I guess the only thing that will prove this is time.  We need some time now to see what happens with the daily testing and quarantining being put to an end.  We really can't speculate because it's only been a few weeks.  Yes- there are apparently many more cases but I'm not seeing reports of mass ships not being allowed to dock, passengers dying etc.  Why don't we wait a bit and see how it goes with the new measures.  Everyone on board has to be up to date with vaccines and the crew is masked.  I think being alarmist about lack of staff and safety is unwarranted at this point.  I haven't seen any reports of passengers saying as much.  In the hospital we also had to deal (and still do) with staff shortages due to sick time but we make do.  

 

The biggest difference with marine crewing, is there is nobody to call, it takes many days to arrange and receive a relief.

 

I can assure you, my previous post is not alarmist, it is based on facts resulting from my extensive risk analysis and human factors training, then developing Bridge procedures and manning. It is well known about 80% of accidents/incidents are caused by human error, so one of the first levels of defense is having at least 2 officers on the Bridge, to eliminate single person errors.

 

They don't carry spare officers, so when one is sick, you re-task one of the few non-watchkeepers, or increase the workload of the other watchkeepers. Leaving a single officer on the Bridge or E/R is a not an option due to the high probability of single person error. Another factor to consider is the non-watchkeepers also have other tasks and responsibilities. SOLAS also mandates maximum hours of work and minimum rest periods. It is also widely accepted that increased hours of work results in fatigue, which increases the potential for accidents/incidents.

 

BTW - pax are not normally aware of any issues with respect to the crewing of the Bridge or Engine Room, so I'm not surprised you haven't seen any reports from pax. Most of the hotel crew don't even know about any issues on the Bridge or E/R.

[SempreMare]

45 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Leaving a single officer on the Bridge or E/R is a not an option due to the high probability of single person error.

 

Andy reading your post makes me recall the "Seconds from Disaster"  episodes I streamed while subscribed to one of the channels.  I'd watch it while packing for work trips, especially  about  episodes related to the airline I was about to fly.

 

Common theme:   

The second thing that went wrong became the documented cause of the plane crash. 

The series also explored the first thing(s) to go wrong.

 

Examples went something like: 

 

Thing #1:  The safety departure procedure had to be re-started because of an insignificant but annoying interruption.

Thing #2:  Something was missed after the re-start.  

[ Plane crashes and everyone dies ] 

 

Thing #1:  Captain argued with his spouse that morning. 

Thing #2:  5 hours later, Captain argued with the co-pilot.  Low-tenure'd Co-pilot did not feel confident enough debating the Captain on what he was worried about. 

[ Plane crashes and everyone dies ] 

 

[OnTheJourney]

11 hours ago, SempreMare said:

Rapid Antigen testing would be massively BTN (Better Than Nothing).

Agreed, but the problem there is that it probably (?) requires more time to accomplish this on behalf of the pax doing it themselves. If in a hurry and not done correctly, results will not be accurate. If requiring some sort of proctored monitoring and / or being done by staff, you're tying up additional staff to accomplish testing large numbers of people especially if on a daily basis. As I've stated before, I'm a bit shocked at seeing Viking go completely in the opposite direction. It seems contrary to Mr. Hagen's philosophy of hoping to maintain as high a degree of safety onboard as is reasonably possible. The decision to go no-test, to me, suggests that they haven't been filling ships. I suggest that it (no testing at all) is very possibly a short-term experiment. Guess we'll find out by the time our January cruise comes around!  

[OnTheJourney]

11 hours ago, shadowlover said:

Everyone on board has to be up to date with vaccines and the crew is masked. 

Any thoughts, from your experience as an NP, on the passengers being masked? Surely you were and probably still are masked in your practice. I'm not suggesting nor implying anything, but am just interested in getting your take on requiring masking onboard at least in certain large group / more confined areas. I still am stuck on the dichotomy that would appear to exist between requiring full-scale daily PCR testing and yet not requiring any masking onboard. It's sort of like having football players wear their helmets, shoulder / thigh / knee pads, but leaving out the mouthgards. Inevitable for some % of accidents to occur, or, analogously, a % of positive cases. It was reported that there were at least 10 people quarantined as a result of positive tests on the Chairman's cruise. OR...require masking ashore during Viking-sponsored excursions. Thing is, many (most?) people bent on traveling - and other walks of life - have pretty much had it with masking, so if you go too far on that score, the cruise lines surely will not fill ships. OR, contrarily,...for those who WON'T cruise do to lack of whatever required protocols either were in place and no longer are or else never in place to begin with or simply not enforced, you have a similar issue. Either way, some degree of positive tests / illness will always show up. Noro will always be here, and probably covid as well. Glad I'm not in charge of making the big decisions at least!  

[Shoalwater]

Right now public health figures estimate that 1 of 4 Houstonians have COVID, the B.4 and B.5 variants that have mutated and escaped the vaccine protection.  CDC has asked manufacturers to reprogram their vaccines for these variants, available in the autumn.  These new variants spread rapidly and barriers like masks are not that effective, especially the paper ones most people use that do not seal to the face skin.  That little gap is plenty wide enough to let viral particles floating in the air inside during inspiration and infect you.  The good news is these variants are not as virulent as what first started 2 years ago.  Testing and masks and all are just not going to help eradicate this virus, it's here to stay so be prepared to learn to live with it.  I just returned from a trip and came home with my second case following my second booster dose.  Almost half the travelers in the small group caught it somewhere.  If you are waiting for it to disappear before resuming your life you might consider joining a cloister.

[shadowlover]

22 hours ago, AnyWayIsGood said:

Any thoughts, from your experience as an NP, on the passengers being masked? Surely you were and probably still are masked in your practice. I'm not suggesting nor implying anything, but am just interested in getting your take on requiring masking onboard at least in certain large group / more confined areas. I still am stuck on the dichotomy that would appear to exist between requiring full-scale daily PCR testing and yet not requiring any masking onboard. It's sort of like having football players wear their helmets, shoulder / thigh / knee pads, but leaving out the mouthgards. Inevitable for some % of accidents to occur, or, analogously, a % of positive cases. It was reported that there were at least 10 people quarantined as a result of positive tests on the Chairman's cruise. OR...require masking ashore during Viking-sponsored excursions. Thing is, many (most?) people bent on traveling - and other walks of life - have pretty much had it with masking, so if you go too far on that score, the cruise lines surely will not fill ships. OR, contrarily,...for those who WON'T cruise do to lack of whatever required protocols either were in place and no longer are or else never in place to begin with or simply not enforced, you have a similar issue. Either way, some degree of positive tests / illness will always show up. Noro will always be here, and probably covid as well. Glad I'm not in charge of making the big decisions at least!  

I completely agree with you.  Yes we are still masked at work and our patients are as well.  Surely the daily testing with masking is an ideal situation but it also created its own conundrums.  I highly recommend masking in public areas if you are concerned about contracting covid and have a chance to get quite sick.  It has become a milder illness but still nasty symptoms for most.  I'm in my 50's and had four vaccines.  I caught covid with close contact with my 4 month old grand daughter.  My symptoms were like a moderate cold.  my husband had a nasty cough with it.  It is a tricky situation but I honestly highly believe in masks when in a bus or crowded room.   Get some surgical masks- they are much more comfortable.  I wear one for 10 hours straight now and don't even remember it's on.  Pay attention to those around you who sound congested - it's covid until proven otherwise at this point!  I was so determined not to catch it but alas it got me...I recovered in three days.  SO- do your best and enjoy travel in a safe way!

 

[shadowlover]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:19 PM, SempreMare said:

@Heidi13, I'm happy you're making the best decision for you,  your family, and anyone lucky enough to know you. I subscribe to your newsletter (cam....357@gmail...).   Totally enjoy your and Judi's blog.  Lots of entertaining and interesting detail there.

 

 

I also wish Viking were still doing testing each day, whether PCR or at least Rapid Antigen. 

 

Rapid Antigen testing would be massively BTN (Better Than Nothing).

in below note, the yellow highlighting is mine. 

 

From the detailed report, sample size n = 306

>> In this study, 306 nasopharyngeal samples were analyzed. 

 

 

Https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35348350/#:~:text=The antigen test was 100.0,99.9% compared to viral culture.

 

I will say that my antigen tests were negative when my pcr was positive.  The reason I did pcr was because I knew I had very close contact with family (little baby) and I was unmasked.   Had minimal symptoms but isolated for five days.  About five days later got symptoms and only then with LOTS of runny nose symptoms did my antigen convert to positive.  Now I'm not saying my small experiment can be applied across the board however in my and my families experience, the antigen was only positive with moderate symptoms days after positive pcr.  All this to say- when was I most contagious??  I assume when my antigen converted but do we really know?

[TomMMD]

On 7/4/2022 at 10:35 AM, hutch1994 said:

And you have to feel sorry for the crew that are put in the awkward position of unmasked people  wanting to have their pictures taken with them.  

We were doing a picture with our World Cafe server & asked her to lower her mask.  She respectfully declined & we just said “we understand “ and took the picture 

[jasardeax]

6 hours ago, TomMMD said:

We were doing a picture with our World Cafe server & asked her to lower her mask. 

Why would you request a crew member to disregard crew protocol?

[FolsomMike]

16 hours ago, jasardeax said:

Why would you request a crew member to disregard crew protocol?

…and put their own health at risk at the whim of a passenger?

[miami mama]

My husband and I have traveled extensively but only have been on 6 cruises. On our first 5 cruises (prior to the pandemic), we became ill, once from Noro and the other 4 cruises with horrible colds and/or the flu. Our last cruise was on Octantis during April when daily testing was occurring. Not only did we not become ill, it did not appear there were any cases of Covid. People didn't even appear to have the sniffles, and that included the staff. The few minutes per day that was required to complete testing was well worth it. I will say we also were among the few people on board that wore masks while walking around the ship. It was such a pleasure to come home healthy and happy. 

 

I am sorry to hear of the current spread of covid on Viking ships since the change in policy. I have two cruises planned for the first part of next year but am seriously reconsidering them. 

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

Can anyone report regarding if there seems to be a significant amount of people with COVID on Octantis?