Has anyone used refundable tickets through Delta?

[OnTheJourney]

I'm considering this instead of buying air through Viking for an upcoming cruise. They initially quoted my TA a price for business class tickets, and then once my agent discussed the itinerary with them that I came up with, she was told that Viking does not "have a contract" for the nonstop flight from the US to Rome. Actually, I think it was also that they aren't contracted for any nonstop flights. Not certain though.

 

As a result, the new quote was over $4k higher than the original, bringing the total to just about $4k higher than I can get directly from Delta even if paying for refundable. It's very tempting since I can do it easily on their website and choose seats at the same time as booking. None of this waiting till 60 days before departure as I've been told by several people on CC.

 

I'm not finding Viking's air department very easy to work with. TA agrees. Almost seems like a win / no-lose to go with the refundable tickets (?) There can be a fee for the cancellation, but doesn't sound like it'd be a deal breaker. Buying the flights through Viking also increases the insurance by several hundred $ as well. The refundable flights can be cancelled even a few hours before scheduled departure. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by OnTheJourney

[FlyerTalker]

Here's the question you need to ask?

 

Do I need to have the refund, for a flight I don't take, be in cash (or credit to my credit card) or is a flight credit for future flights good enough?

 

If you fly enough that you will use up the credits, why pay for the refundable.  And if you don't fly enough to use them, is the difference in the price worth that "feature"?

 

Only each individual can answer those questions.

[OnTheJourney]

4 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

or is a flight credit for future flights good enough?

Don't really want that since I don't fly all that often. 

 

4 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

If you fly enough that you will use up the credits, why pay for the refundable.  And if you don't fly enough to use them, is the difference in the price worth that "feature"?

 

I'd say probably so since with the former I might be hard pressed to use the credits - especially with the value of business class tickets. With the latter, I get my money back with no need to worry about booking trips with flights solely for the purpose of trying to use up a large amount of credit. When we fly domestically I don't bother with business class. 

[Bo1953]

7 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

Don't really want that since I don't fly all that often. 

 

I'd say probably so since with the former I might be hard pressed to use the credits - especially with the value of business class tickets. With the latter, I get my money back with no need to worry about booking trips with flights solely for the purpose of trying to use up a large amount of credit. When we fly domestically I don't bother with business class. 

It sounds like you have rhetorically answered your questions...

 

bon voyage

[OnTheJourney]

4 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

It sounds like you have rhetorically answered your questions...

Well, to some extent agreed that I'm probably trying to convince myself, but still some uncertainties as to all the advantages / disadvantages of one vs. the other. For instance, if the Viking flight schedule goes awry, do they readily adjust so that they do the most they can to get you to where you should be?  In my case, it wouldn't be a case of missing the ship at the start of the cruise since we have the 2-day pre-extension. I'll consult further with my TA. 

[Bo1953]

1 hour ago, OnTheJourney said:

Well, to some extent agreed that I'm probably trying to convince myself, but still some uncertainties as to all the advantages / disadvantages of one vs. the other. For instance, if the Viking flight schedule goes awry, do they readily adjust so that they do the most they can to get you to where you should be?  In my case, it wouldn't be a case of missing the ship at the start of the cruise since we have the 2-day pre-extension. I'll consult further with my TA. 

Have you asked/inquired about Viking Air on that forum???

 

I would think that far more individuals will have that experience vs those of us here... to impart their first hand knowledge.

 

bon voyage

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

I'll consult further with my TA.

 

I think that is an excellent idea particularly if your TA is an experienced one.  

 

Personally, I think a fully refundable ticket is what I would choose to do.  (A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.)  There are people who chose FCC when their cruise was cancelled due to the pandemic who have lost those credits when they could not, or chose not to, use them.  

[OnTheJourney]

55 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

There are people who chose FCC when their cruise was cancelled due to the pandemic who have lost those credits when they could not, or chose not to, use them. 

Great point. I have little desire to accumulate additional airline or cruise credits. 

[OnTheJourney]

2 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

Have you asked/inquired about Viking Air on that forum???

TOO much and TOO often I'm afraid. The thing is, NOwhere have I ever gotten a full explanation of exactly how does the booking process work - not from the standpoint of the passenger, but rather between Viking and the airline. It is my contention that for them (and likely others) to wait months to actually ticket and issue seats is partly why flights get oversold. It's all such a game - airlines deliberately overbook counting on a certain % of pax to cancel. I sat waiting for my overnight flight to Paris the one time while the airline reps badgered us to accept a (substantial) cash voucher if we'd give up our seats. I think they were up to $1k pp. It was crazy. We wound up  missing our connection the following morning. I can still hear the guy say, "I really need 10 people to get off this aircraft". Seriously? An overnight flight? It's not like there was another one available within the next 2 hours. I guess they got what they needed cause we did manage to board and go. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by OnTheJourney

[Bo1953]

6 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

TOO much and TOO often I'm afraid. The thing is, NOwhere have I ever gotten a full explanation of exactly how does the booking process work - not from the standpoint of the passenger, but rather between Viking and the airline. It is my contention that for them (and likely others) to wait months to actually ticket and issue seats is partly why flights get oversold. It's all such a game - airlines deliberately overbook counting on a certain % of pax to cancel. I sat waiting for my overnight flight to Paris the one time while the airline reps badgered us to accept a (substantial) cash voucher if we'd give up our seats. I think they were up to $1k pp. It was crazy. We wound up  missing our connection the following morning. I can still hear the guy say, "I really need 10 people to get off this aircraft". Seriously? An overnight flight? It's not like there was another one available within the next 2 hours. I guess they got what they needed cause we did manage to board and go. 

The booking process for 'many' cruise lines that offer air to their booked passengers is that of a third party travel agent which in many cases can provide more 'economical' airfares internationally based on contractual agreement with certain airlines.

 

Those fares are the inducements to get passengers to book vis-a-vis the cruise line, along with payment of the tickets at final payment for the sailing, more often than not.

 

Travel agents, no matter their flavour have no control over how the airline operates, they can only do what they can to assist and get you to where you need to be day of embarkation. If an airline changes schedule, cancels a flight or whatever the TA can only roll with it and try to get you where you need to be when you need to be there.

 

NO guarantee, only a strong promise to assist as best and how they can within the restrictions of the contracts they have with any one airline.

 

Those of us who cannot live with those policies really need to consider booking air on our own terms and forget about the money savings as you have pointed out. Provided we understand if we do book on our own, then we are fully at the mercy of the airline and not TA (in this case the cruise line) and have to figure out how to get where we need to be when we need to be there...

 

Are the cruise lines 'seemingly' lax in their communications and out reach? Quite possibly so, yet appears to be overwhelming from those who have issues and post here. Yet, I Am willing to believe, for the moment, that most passengers get to where they need to be when they need to be there.

 

As far as I can tell, again, you have answered your own question... still your choice how to proceed.

 

bon voyage

[OnTheJourney]

49 minutes ago, Bo1953 said:

The booking process for 'many' cruise lines

Thanks for all that, but it still leaves me wondering how (and when) the cruise line actually books specific seats for passengers who have chosen to go with the cruiseline for their air. If this is not done till ticketing, e.g. the Viking agent who told my TA that "seats are not guaranteed", at what point DOES it become reasonably guaranteed? I've never had a seat changed when booking through either expedia or directly with the airline.

 

As to the cruiseline getting a more economical itinerary price, that's what I had hoped for but it hasn't happened. Paying less through the airline website AND being able to get my money back, if need be, does seem to be a win /no-lose. TA never got back to me today as promised, so that's just driving me more towards booking this and getting it done. My TA is very nice, but she gets sidetracked with other clients though phone calls and walk-ins at the AAA office. At some point, these fares I've been looking at the past week or so are likely to go up as the date becomes closer. Once I book, I don't keep looking to see if the price has gone higher or lower. Not interested at that point. Not being able to deal directly with Viking's air department just makes the communication process too cumbersome and inefficient. 

 

So..ok...I think I'm done on this thread. Thanks for all the info!!

Edited August 9, 2022 by OnTheJourney

[RTR 21-0]

A few months ago when I was considering Flights by Celebrity I was told by the agent that flights are ticketed once payment for the flight has been received.  That would either be us paying for the flights prior to the cruise payoff or paying for flights at time of final cruise payment.  I was told that once payment has been received it normally takes a day or two to get them ticketed.  However, Seat selection for some airlines such as American were able to be chosen immediately after booking the flights.  If there was one leg of the flight that was through a carrier such as British Airways.  Those seats can only be chosen after final payment for flight has been made.  I believe Delta also uses Finn Air and I’m not sure of the seat selection policy prior to final payment for them.  

[OnTheJourney]

8 hours ago, RTR 21-0 said:

I was told by the agent that flights are ticketed once payment for the flight has been received.  

That makes alot more sense than what my agent was told by Viking, which is...  "the (Viking Air) representative clarified that early ticketing is subject to approval from the ticketing department and may not be allowed more than 90 days prior to departure. "  

 

The part I highlighted is what I have a hard time accepting. 

[FlyerTalker]

Remember that seat selection is only a request.  You are NEVER guaranteed that you will be assigned that seat at flight time.  It is especially only a request when you are an unticketed reservation.

 

13 minutes ago, OnTheJourney said:

That makes alot more sense than what my agent was told by Viking, which is...  "the (Viking Air) representative clarified that early ticketing is subject to approval from the ticketing department and may not be allowed more than 90 days prior to departure. "  

 

The part I highlighted is what I have a hard time accepting. 

 

Why should that be hard to understand.  The cruiseline is booking the tickets to fit THEIR time schedules, not yours.  In addition, their bulk ticket contracts may not provide for ticketing more than 90 days before flight departure.

 

Read the specific Terms and Conditions for each cruiseline's air policies.  You'll be amazed at what you read, and how different it is from the popular perception.

 

Simple rule.  If you want to have control over your air travel, to be ticketed when you wish, and to not have to deal with intermediaries -- buy the ticket direct from the airline.

[OnTheJourney]

Flyer...thanks for that info!

 

Here's another angle to all this- just chatted with a rep at the trip insurance company I typically use. It's my understanding (and they confirmed this) that if you include non-refundable flight tickets as part of the total cost for a policy, i.e. total pre-paid non-refundable expenditures, IF you then activate the policy you must decline the airline's credit or else you can't receive back (from the policy) the portion of the total cost that is associated with the airfare. This leads to the next question....can you tell an airline to not issue credit (due to having the cost already insured under a policy)?  I went around the bush with this last year as well and came across a policy from a company whose agent promised me that they WILL refund air costs as part of their policy regardless of whether the airline issues credit or not. Sounds a bit like a case of 'double dipping' to me, but I did take out the policy but then never needed it. 

 

I bring all this up because my agent is indicating that the advantage of booking air through my cruiseline IS that it is then insured. True enough, but all the money comes back in the form of credit. Even under those conditions, if the airline is going to issue credit, then the cruise line really should save their money and not issue credit for the portion of the air costs. Am I on the right track here?  Many travel insurance companies DO say to add airfare to the total pre-paid non-refundable expenses.  Oh, Lordy....car trips are nice LOL  

[OnTheJourney]

11 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

Simple rule.  If you want to have control over your air travel, to be ticketed when you wish, and to not have to deal with intermediaries -- buy the ticket direct from the airline.

I typically have but with recent uncertainties (in great part stemming from covid the past few years) have leaned more towards keeping all the money under the cruise line in case things go sideways. Not sure this time however since the cruiseline is coming in with such a high air cost. 

[OnTheJourney]

9 hours ago, RTR 21-0 said:

 I believe Delta also uses Finn Air and I’m not sure of the seat selection policy prior to final payment for them.  

I did see a few Finn air and other codeshared flights. At least one person here on CC, who has far greater experience than I, has cautioned against using codeshares since it can complicate things. I ran into that once when booking flights from the US to Oslo for a Viking cruise. 

[Globaliser]

19 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

The thing is, NOwhere have I ever gotten a full explanation of exactly how does the booking process work - not from the standpoint of the passenger, but rather between Viking and the airline. It is my contention that for them (and likely others) to wait months to actually ticket and issue seats is partly why flights get oversold.

 

11 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

Thanks for all that, but it still leaves me wondering how (and when) the cruise line actually books specific seats for passengers who have chosen to go with the cruiseline for their air. If this is not done till ticketing, e.g. the Viking agent who told my TA that "seats are not guaranteed", at what point DOES it become reasonably guaranteed? I've never had a seat changed when booking through either expedia or directly with the airline.

 

Basically, it's like this. The cruise line has a contract with the airline to move X number of people from point A to point B on a certain day. The airline takes reservations across its network in a way that allows for the fact that they have to move X people for that cruise line, by some routing or other, on that day. Close to the time of the flight, the airline allocates space to the cruise line's passengers on the routings on which it can do it. The airline doesn't oversell because of the cruise line's contract - it's not like the airline's forgotten about the fact that it will need to move those people. The cruise line's contract will account for only a very small proportion of the airline's traffic anyway.

 

Reserving some space on an aircraft to move people has nothing to do with specific seats on the aircraft. You have to get away from the idea that you ever book a specific seat on an aircraft, as you might in a theatre. Seat allocations are pretty much irrelevant to all of this.

 

19 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

It's all such a game - airlines deliberately overbook counting on a certain % of pax to cancel.

 

'Twas ever thus. Otherwise fares would be double what they are because aircraft would routinely go out lightly occupied. It's not unusual for specific flights to be overbooked, at some stages, by over 100 passengers, just to get them somewhere near full when they actually depart. One airline did actually once mention a statistic for a typical long-haul flight in the summer: during the 355 days that the flight is open for booking, it would typically expect to take (IIRC) about 7 bookings for every physical seat on the aircraft, and then the aircraft would eventually go out something like 85% full. What do you think would happen if airlines don't play these games?

[OnTheJourney]

29 minutes ago, Globaliser said:

Close to the time of the flight, the airline allocates space to the cruise line's passengers on the routings on which it can do it.

Thanks for all that info. It sounds like the same probably happens with a land tour company reserving blocks of rooms at a hotel - thus not being able to guarantee a specific room or location.

 

Regarding the part I quoted above, how does that relate to specific seat assignments and/or early ticketing? I know you advised not getting hung up on this but in the final analysis it's a very important factor for probably most passengers at least in other than the economy / main cabin. If a business class cabin becomes full due to random people booking seats on the airline website AND a number of cruise people were hoping for (and paid for) business class seating on the same flight, what happens then? Since you mention the airline "allocates space to the cruise passengers on the routings that can do it", is that when they decide they have to change peoples' schedules to a different flight (or even seating class on the originally requested itinerary)?  So...how is all this different than booking a seat on the airline website? Isn't direct booking more assurance of actually getting the seat requested? 

Edited August 9, 2022 by OnTheJourney

[OnTheJourney]

32 minutes ago, Globaliser said:

It's not unusual for specific flights to be overbooked, at some stages, by over 100 passengers, just to get them somewhere near full when they actually depart.

Well, that works and it doesn't,  referring to the people waiting at the gate to board and some airline rep is badgering them about needing several people to give up their seats. This happened to me for a longhaul overnight to Paris - it's not a comfortable situation. Vouchers for changing to a different flight start at a low $ amount and go up as high as necessary till they get takers. As a result, a bunch of people (including me) miss their connection the next morning. They play the percentages and probably most of the time do ok. 

[OnTheJourney]

37 minutes ago, Globaliser said:

Reserving some space on an aircraft to move people has nothing to do with specific seats on the aircraft. You have to get away from the idea that you ever book a specific seat on an aircraft, as you might in a theatre. Seat allocations are pretty much irrelevant to all of this.

 

So you might wind up where you want and you might not. So if I pay for B-class and the "space" on the aircraft is such that the seats are already booked (I say this operating under the premise that if I go on the airline website and pay for and choose a seat, it is indeed, for all intents and purposes, "booked" and thus reasonably guaranteed), then assumedly the cruise line will return part of the money to seat someone in a different class? It's hard, in a way, to separate the process you describe from the concept of reserving a seat. What remains confusing to me is how what the airline does in terms of honoring their cruise contracts relates to and is impacted by what people do that book independently. Using the theatre analogy you mentioned - suppose a tour company books a block of specific seats for a show, and yet it turns out that, as the show nears, non-tour people book some of those seats? Perhaps shows, professional sports events, etc. like planes, also wind up getting oversold. 

[bbtondo]

I bought fully refundable air tickets on United for my next Med Cruise.  Thought was the best choice for me.

[RTR 21-0]

37 minutes ago, bbtondo said:

I bought fully refundable air tickets on United for my next Med Cruise.  Thought was the best choice for me.

Did the same through American for our Med next year.  Their fully refundable fare was cheaper than FBC and in the month since I’ve booked it I’ve changed it to a nearby city and saved an additional $1K. Received a credit to my cc with no problems.  

[Globaliser]

5 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

So if I pay for B-class and the "space" on the aircraft is such that the seats are already booked (I say this operating under the premise that if I go on the airline website and pay for and choose a seat, it is indeed, for all intents and purposes, "booked" and thus reasonably guaranteed), then assumedly the cruise line will return part of the money to seat someone in a different class?

 

No, I think you're still not getting this.

 

By whatever route you book your flight, you do not book a specific seat. That is simply not how it works, so there's no question of a specific seat being "guaranteed", reasonably or otherwise. Picking (if you are able to) and paying for (if you have to) a specific seat is a process that's independent from booking yourself onto the flight, whether you're booking through the airline or through a third party like a cruise line.

 

So even if you book directly through the airline, two separate things may happen: (a) you have a reservation for one (unspecified) seat on the flight; and (b) if you choose to, you may pay for a request for (say) seat 18A. But you have not booked a flight in seat 18A, and there is absolutely no guarantee of any kind that seat 18A is "yours". Airlines usually try not to muck about too much with seat allocations, but it's a complete fallacy to think that you have booked seat 18A.

 

When the airline gives a seat on a specific flight to the cruise line under the contract, that becomes a reservation for an (unspecified) seat on that flight just like any booking made directly with the airline. The difference from a direct booking mostly stems from the fact that this step usually takes place much later than if you make a direct booking at the same time as you book the cruise, because the airline is typically allocating the least valuable and least-in-demand space to the cruise line, which is typically paying bottom dollar for that space.

 

5 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

Using the theatre analogy you mentioned - suppose a tour company books a block of specific seats for a show, and yet it turns out that, as the show nears, non-tour people book some of those seats? Perhaps shows, professional sports events, etc. like planes, also wind up getting oversold. 

 

The theatre is not an analogy. If you book a specific seat at the theatre, then (unlike air travel) that is a ticket for that specific seat and the theatre should not take another booking for that specific seat. If a tour company books the whole of row 18, the theatre should not separately sell any seats in row 18 unless the tour company returns those seats to the theatre.

 

Air travel simply doesn't work like that. The underlying mechanism for reserving space on a flight is unchanged from the days when there was no such thing as having a seat allocated to you until you arrived at the check-in desk at the airport. Preserving seating flexibility by not changing this is very important to airlines because operationally they never know whether (for example) the aircraft operating the flight might suddenly have to be one on which seat 18A doesn't exist.

[OnTheJourney]

2 hours ago, RTR 21-0 said:

Received a credit to my cc with no problems.  

Good to hear there were no snags with the refund. I'm going to do the refundable also. I've been keeping track of an itinerary for the past week or so and disappointed to find that the one flight is no longer available for my date - Athens to Amsterdam. Wonder what would have happened had I already booked?  Probably would have gotten a notice that the flight is no longer available. Within the whole travel realm, it seems nothing is crazier or more unpredicatable than airline schedules